Was I a wuss?

[Bill]

Yesterday I was excited, as the evening was shaping up as a good time to go out and get my second actual encounter. I monitored the weather as the afternoon progressed, and the ceiling and temp/dew point spread continued to come down. When I left for the airport, ceiling was 800 and there was one degree spread on the temp/dewpt.

Fourty minutes later, the ceiling had come down to 600, and there was no spead, temp/dewpt was 05/05. I wasn't worried about ice, as both the airmet and winds aloft had the freeze level at 10,000. But I was concerned with the tem/dewpt, and was worried that the ceiling could come down quickly and/or fog in. The ceiling was already a good bit lower than predicted by the TAF.

So, I did a no go, and stayed on the ground. On one hand, I am chompin' to get more actual, but I also wasn't really in the mood to maybe have to travel a couple hundred miles and spend the night somewhere else when I just wanted to get some actual apps in.

Probably a good call, but I still feel like a wuss.

 

[bstratt]

Bill, as it was a purely discretionary flight I'd say you exercised good judgement in establishing personal minimums.

However I empathize with the disappointment!

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

It really sucks to have to actually use an alternate...especially on a training flight!

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Bill, making a decision not to fly is, IMO, never wuss-like. As has been oft repeated: better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground...

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Bill:

Give it sometime! Still plenty to learn. Getting the IR is kinna like getting your driver's license: up to the point you pass, you've only studied for the test; after passing; you're actually going to drive. You've got a lot of time to learn more, hone skills, and deal with actual conditions. No sense in launching into something that can cause a problem at any time.

Best,

Dave

 

[TMetzinger]

I think you used good judgement. When the actual weather deviates significantly from the forecast, you are really in a "test pilot" mode, and need to have a good alternate plan where the weather IS behaving as predicted. For a flight that doesn't HAVE to happen, staying on the ground is always a good choice.

 

[Steve]

It was 100 & 1/2 at JAN last night.

Best viewed from the ground.

 

[Lance F]

I'd say you made a good call.

 

[grattonja]

"uh, dear, I'm not gonna make it home tonight. Remember that training flight to do a couple of approaches? Well, it fogged in and I am now 50 miles away, at X brand airport where there was no fog. I'll be home tomorrow..."

Don't worry about it. When the weather isn't as forecast, it usually stays that way and gets worse. I've aborted a couple of those type of training missions for the same reason. Save an ILS down to mins for when you HAVE to do it. It slows guys like you and me down from getting more actual time, but it also keeps us alive. Alive is good.

Jim G

 

[Bill]

"uh, dear, I'm not gonna make it home tonight. Remember that training flight to do a couple of approaches? Well, it fogged in and I am now 50 miles away, at X brand airport where there was no fog. I'll be home tomorrow..."

It was a very large area of rain and low ceilings (remnants of the stuff that flooded Dallas), 50nm would not have gotten me out from under. I probably would have flown to NE TN or across the mountains to Asheville or Charlotte to get in.

 

[AirBaker]

Since I'm tied down at an airport that doesn't have low mins, it is a pain for me to park somewhere else and get a ride back. I've scrubbed more flights just because I thought I couldn't get back home.

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

Since I'm tied down at an airport that doesn't have low mins, it is a pain for me to park somewhere else and get a ride back. I've scrubbed more flights just because I thought I couldn't get back home.

So what happens if you can't get home by plane, and no one will pick you up? Do you sleep in the plane, get a hotel, sleep in the FBO, or what? Just curious for when I start doing x/c.

Good decision Bill. Remember this year we are fighting the war on error.

 

[rpadula]

Wuss.

(just kidding)

While waiting for some software to install yesterday afternoon, I was checking PIREPS on ADDS. I saw a few for ice at 7000' east of you.

Think you made a good call.

-Rich

 

[SkyHog]

So what happens if you can't get home by plane, and no one will pick you up? Do you sleep in the plane, get a hotel, sleep in the FBO, or what? Just curious for when I start doing x/c.

Good decision Bill. Remember this year we are fighting the war on error.

Well, the two times I got weathered in away from home or anyone I knew, I got a hotel room and waited it out. If I were broke, I could have slept in the plane tho, but I'm sure a bed is much more comfortable.

 

[Dan Smith]

"uh, dear, I'm not gonna make it home tonight. Remember that training flight to do a couple of approaches? Well, it fogged in and I am now 50 miles away, at X brand airport where there was no fog. I'll be home tomorrow..."Jim G

Just be glad you didn't take a female coworker up for this flight!

No wuss here; there's no good reason to launch into deteriorating conditions when your destination is also deteriorating. In your case, since it was the same place, why go up?

Dan

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Mother Nature rules.

 

[wsuffa]

Bill, great call. You're still learning.

Down on the gulf coast, temp-dewpoint = 0 generally is an indication that ground fog may ensue. I learned the lesson early on, just barely got in, and watched vis go to 100' by the time I got the plane in the hangar.

I probably would have done the same thing you did.

 

[poadeleted20]

When it comes to go/no go decisions, anyone can be an idiot, but it's impossible to be a wuss.

 

[AdamZ]

When it comes to go/no go decisions, anyone can be an idiot, but it's impossible to be a wuss.

WOW That just sums it up perfectly!!!

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Don't look back. Move on.

 

[Henning]

I did a no go, and stayed on the ground. On one hand, I am chompin' to get more actual, but I also wasn't really in the mood to maybe have to travel a couple hundred miles and spend the night somewhere else when I just wanted to get some actual apps in.

Probably a good call, but I still feel like a wuss.

That doesn't fit the definition of wuss really, miserly yes, wuss no . You weren't really afraid of flying, you were afraid of what it would cost you if you couldn't get back in and had to fly off to an alternate. BTW, that's another little thing, in small planes, you can get yourself into a situation where you can't get to somewhere that is landable, especially in stable systems that develope low ceilings and fog. I almost got screwed like that once, couldn't get below minimums in the entire region. That's why I CAT II qualify at one airport in the region so I have somewhere to go when it really stinks up.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

So what happens if you can't get home by plane, and no one will pick you up? Do you sleep in the plane, get a hotel, sleep in the FBO, or what? Just curious for when I start doing x/c.

Grab your overnight bag, cell phone and credit card and go have fun!
Oh. You didn't say you listed Smallville as your alternate. Remember, every backup plan must include a city with some decent eats, movie/mall/av-museum/distraction of your choice; typically a larger city, they are also the ones with lower mins and the all night fbo, so it works out.

 

[Steve]

Got caught one night from CRP into IWS, forecast 800'/6, by the time I passed Palacios it was 300'/1, when HOU went to 200' / 1/2 I diverted to CLL, along with 3 other CFIIs and their trainees out of DWH, and a Dakota inbound from OK that turned back half way to DWH. We all sat in the FBO that was unlocked but unmanned and watched the ramp go 0/0. I let my passenger talk me into CLL when I should have gone to SAT while it was still available, with its 24hr FBO. I had a meeting at 8am and had to hire a cab to drive me to HOU...ugh.

Bill, great call. You're still learning.

Down on the gulf coast, temp-dewpoint = 0 generally is an indication that ground fog may ensue. I learned the lesson early on, just barely got in, and watched vis go to 100' by the time I got the plane in the hangar.

I probably would have done the same thing you did.

 

[Bill]

That doesn't fit the definition of wuss really, miserly yes, wuss no . You weren't really afraid of flying, you were afraid of what it would cost you if you couldn't get back in and had to fly off to an alternate.

Not even the cost as much as the pain in the a$$ factor!

That's why I CAT II qualify at one airport in the region so I have somewhere to go when it really stinks up.

How do you do that? I thought CAT II required special equipment and special training. So that poses the questions:

1. What IS the special equipment that allows CAT II approaches?
2. Is this equipment available on GA aircraft?
3. Who can give the special training?
4. What would it cost?

All good questions, as our airport does have a CAT II ILS approach, and it would be good to be able to use it if necessary.

 

[gkainz]

Grab your overnight bag, cell phone and credit card and go have fun!
Oh. You didn't say you listed Smallville as your alternate. Remember, every backup plan must include a city with some decent eats, movie/mall/av-museum/distraction of your choice; typically a larger city, they are also the ones with lower mins and the all night fbo, so it works out.

There are some advantages in Smallville! I got stranded in Sidney, NE on a night x/c with a bad mag. It was after 10pm, FBO was closed, heck, pretty much all of Sidney was closed! One of the A&Ps from the FBO lived near the field and saw our lights, heard our failed start attempts and came out to help us out. He confirmed the problem, gave us the loaner car, recommendations for a motel and said he would get on the problem in the morning. It might have been a long cold night in the plane, or a longer, colder walk into town...

 

[Bill]

It might have been a long cold night in the plane, or a longer, colder walk into town...

That is a fine argument for owning vs. renting/club flying: being able to load a backpackers tent, decent winter sleeping bag and extra long johns in the baggage compartment and leaving it there for the winter months. Then a long, cold, lonely night at Pea Patch FBO needn't be so cold.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

That is a fine argument for owning vs. renting/club flying: being able to load a backpackers tent, decent winter sleeping bag and extra long johns in the baggage compartment and leaving it there for the winter months. Then a long, cold, lonely night at Pea Patch FBO needn't be so cold.

That stuff and more goes on all our winter flights.
It's all of one 15 foot walk from the car to the baggage hatch,
even on a rental plane!

 

[Bill]

It's all of one 15 foot walk from the car to the baggage hatch,
even on a rental plane!

Maybe at your home base. Here, park in the parking lot, grab as much as you can carry, badge in thru the gate, and hump it 300yds up the hill to the tiedown/hangar. Rinse, repeat until all gear is loaded.

What I need to do is schedule to see the movie, get my AOA badge upgraded to allow driving on the airport, and then increase my auto liabilities to $1M. But, I've been too lazy thus far...

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Maybe at your home base. Here, park in the parking lot, grab as much as you can carry, badge in thru the gate, and hump it 300yds up the hill to the tiedown/hangar. Rinse, repeat until all gear is loaded.

What I need to do is schedule to see the movie, get my AOA badge upgraded to allow driving on the airport, and then increase my auto liabilities to $1M. But, I've been too lazy thus far...

Oh yeah, I hear that and it's a hassle, and no wheel barrows is even worse. The airport badge upgrade is a given but I don't see the requirement for the insurance. Is that an airport thing?

 

[fgcason]

That is a fine argument for owning vs. renting/club flying: being able to load a backpackers tent, decent winter sleeping bag and extra long johns in the baggage compartment and leaving it there for the winter months. Then a long, cold, lonely night at Pea Patch FBO needn't be so cold.

Agreed. You can't beat owning when it comes to most things and especially leaving stuff in the plane.
But renting won't stop me from carrying a mid size backcountry daypack with self rescue gear. The pack I take will let me go backcountry comfortably for a week. The FBO kind of frowns upon carrying a pack and snowshoes out to the plane but that's their problem, not mine.

 

[Bill]

Is that an airport thing?

Our airport is class C, with alot of corporate aircraft parked on the GA ramp, so I guess they want the coverage just in the event you accidently bump into one of thsoe expensive planes. But yes, it is an airport authority requirement.

Being at the class C has its advantages (two ILS approaches, full ATC), and its pains (driving/access restrictions, red tape, that same ATC hinders primary training, etc.)

 

[Bill]

But renting won't stop me from carrying a mid size backcountry daypack with self rescue gear. The pack I take will let me go backcountry comfortably for a week.

Can you share what pack you use, and what equipment you carry? Putting together a survival pack has always been rolling around the back of my mind, but I've never really started to assemble the gear. Suggestions are welcome.

 

[gkainz]

Can you share what pack you use, and what equipment you carry? Putting together a survival pack has always been rolling around the back of my mind, but I've never really started to assemble the gear. Suggestions are welcome.

google "general aviation survival kit" ... about 650,000 hits - some with some real good info...

 

[Henning]

Not even the cost as much as the pain in the a$$ factor!



How do you do that? I thought CAT II required special equipment and special training. So that poses the questions:

1. What IS the special equipment that allows CAT II approaches?
2. Is this equipment available on GA aircraft?
3. Who can give the special training?
4. What would it cost?

All good questions, as our airport does have a CAT II ILS approach, and it would be good to be able to use it if necessary.

No special equipment for low end approach speed airplanes, IIRC it's less than 120kts. Just a bit of training (IIRC it was 6 approaches) and a ride that gets you down to 150' (I did mine with the FSDO guy), then I believe it was six more approaches, and you're good for 100'. This is of course predicated on there actually being a CAT II approach written for the airport. Basically it's practice holding a stable approach, because that in that last 100', those needles move fast. It's been about 10 years since I did them, but I haven't heard of the rules changing. I may have forgotten some detail, or have the approach speed wrong, but it's the way I remember it. It was a simple thing since I had a good bit of time in my plane and good training with plenty of practice at the time.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think for some GA aircraft (medium twins and larger) a radar altimeter was required, but it may not be any longer.

 

[fgcason]

Can you share what pack you use, and what equipment you carry? Putting together a survival pack has always been rolling around the back of my mind, but I've never really started to assemble the gear. Suggestions are welcome.

That might be a good thread to start.

I'm an outdoors solo backcountry type so I have a pile of first rate stuff to choose from. (I'm a bit of a snob about such things and don't use unreliable bottom feeder junk) Lightweight, reliable, useful and proven by actual use is the rule. The basic survival pack is maybe 15 lbs (never weighed it but it's light) of stuff tops plus specific needs. The survival equipment list is rather minimal.
I use a full harness daypack that's good enough for a 2-4 day camping trip - if you can't carry your stuff, you don't have it and can't use it which defeats the purpose of bringing it in the first place. Zero F sleeping bag. Home made tube tent and extra plastic sheeting and cords. Clothes and outerwear adequate to stay dry and warm. Boots (shoes are unacceptable). Camp stove (muti fuel) that'll run anywhere, loaded fuel bottles and a camp pot. Food for 3 days, a gill net and often a gun. 2 water bottles and a filter. Fire lighting stuff (lighter, flint/steel, cotton/vaseline). Small first aid kit including a blind'em signal mirror and such stuff. Heavy duty camp knife that'll hack anything up. Vicegrips for converting a crashed plane into something useful. Map/compass/pencil/flashlight. Assorted misc stuff that falls in the backpackers zero weight zero volume zero hassle category. Aviation handheld radio with enroute frequencies. No technogizmocrap is allowed as primary stuff since it's not reliable. That's about it excluding seasonal and specific environmental modifications. It's basically the same stuff I'd use if I decided Friday afternoon to go camping for the weekend and walked out the door 10 minutes later.

Whatever you use, make sure you try it before you need it. Take the pack and nothing else and go camping for 36-48 hours. If it's not enough for a weekend outing, it's not going to be enough when you really need it.

Self rescue capability is mandatory and not planning for self rescue is just plain stupid. If the rescue crew shows up, so much the better but I have no intention of waiting around 30 years for them to show up unless I really like the place.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

If you don't want to take the effort to make a full survival kit, at least throw in the essentials.
At a survival course I was at, they said no one dies of starvation. It is always exposure and sometimes dehydration.
So at least carry
a) clothing that would allow you to survive outside in the coldest weather expected for an extended stay (garden trash bags are great at retaining heat and blocking wind and take up little payload/space).
b) water... large jugs will burst in a crash, small containers are better. I will let the experts tell you how much 4 people will need for 5 days in the desert, you might be amazed.
Anyone know how to make a desert still?!
c) first aid items
d) alternate forms of communication (handheld or cell) can save the day.

 

[fgcason]

b) water... large jugs will burst in a crash, small containers are better. I will let the experts tell you how much 4 people will need for 5 days in the desert, you might be amazed.

My rule is if the container in new condition can't survive being body slammed onto a gravel pile while full, it's not crashworthy. One gallon milk jugs are not good cause they go boom. Most backpacking water and fuel containers keep the wet inside. Also pad and secure the containers in the back of the plane to minimize damage.

Anyone know how to make a desert still?!

Find a sunny spot that's as hot as possible preferably with dampish ground below the surface. Dig hole in dirt, put cup in bottom, insert much schrubbery preferably the leafy/meaty variety, use knife to increase schrubbery exposed surface area if possible, optional though prefered put flexible tubing in cup and run to edge of hole, cover hole with clear plastic sheet, seal edge of sheet with dirt, put rock in center above cup to make a funnel shape. Wait in the shade. Tap sheet occasionally to move moisture down the sheet to get the water out of the sunlight for better heating. Build a second one while you're waiting for the first cup to fill is a good idea too. It works quite well but it's like fishing with a hook.
Better yet, fly near water if at all possible..but not too much water.

 

[Henning]

So what happens if you can't get home by plane, and no one will pick you up? Do you sleep in the plane, get a hotel, sleep in the FBO, or what? Just curious for when I start doing x/c.

The short answer is "Yes", all of the above, Hotels are nice especially if they or the FBO pick up and drop off. If not and you can wait a bit, you can get a ride for a few bucks from one of the line kids next time he gets to break, otherwise, call a cab or walk. They do require a hotel budget though, and I don't always have, or desire to spend on hotels, that money. If I'm on expenses, hotel room it is, on Per Diem, maybe, on my own dime, depends on the weather and how other possibilities pan out. I have been brought home (their home) by various airport managers & employees, been taken over to the local Tango Bravo and slept in a booth there, always wondered what the FSDO would think of that. Some FBOs even have a bunk room. Hughes at McCarren had a decent one that I've used to advantage. I've also pulled my tent and camping gear (permanently installed in the nose of the Travel Air) and camped on field. Even set up camp once in a forward fuselage section of a 707. I've stayed in hangar apartments as well as plain ole hangars. A lot of it like I said depends on budget and your flexibility in lifestyle, in other words, "can you hang?".

 

[Bill]

Basically it's practice holding a stable approach, because that in that last 100', those needles move fast.

I'll bet. I will keep practicing my apps down to 200, and when I feel good enough, I may enquire on getting training for that last 100ft.