Want to Purchase plane for 2 people to get licensed

@CAVEMANTACTICS

@CAVEMANTACTICS

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Wanting to purchase a plane for the wife and myself to get licensed & possibly my nephew. Is it worth it as long as it can be resold or used a lot in the future?
Who has done this and have you found it to be worth it?
 
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Rgbeard said:
"Is it worth it as long as it can be resolved"?
Rgbeard said:
"Is it worth it as long as it can be resolved"?

Not really sure what this means.
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Meant to say Resold.

Not really sure what this means.
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Would it be worth purchasing a Aircraft to use for training vs renting? 2 to 3 of us would use it to get our licenses in.
 
Does the up front cost justify purchasing now or just rent then purchase. Have $70k we can use and I can find many LSA around for that price.
 
I would generally advise against purchasing a plane until you get your certificate and have a better idea of what kind of plane suits you best. What you think you want now may not be what you want later, and selling a plane is a b******.
 
Another consideration is whether you want to combine learning all your ownership responsibilities while learning to fly.
 
Depends. If you don't wind up with any major malfunctions, absolutely. I bought an aircraft to train in and sold it a few years later. I think I got $4k less for it than I paid, and flew it at least 200 hours. I would have spent far more on rentals. Moreover, I received a very good course in aircraft ownership at low risk. Just make certain to purchase enough airplane to do all the desired training. For example, if the IR is in the future, then get an aircraft with the necessary instruments installed.

Many would say get your last airplane first, and I wouldn't disagree. Buying and selling airplanes is an expensive, loathsome business. If you can identify what your mission will be at the outset, it might be a good strategy.
 
What is your end game? What are you going to do with your pilot's certificate when you're done training?
 
Conventional wisdom is its much better to rent while you're working on your private cert. It allows you to concentrate on learning to fly rather than having to divide your bandwidth between learning to fly and learning the ins and outs of airplane ownership. It also allows you to not lose as much sleep over wondering whether that ugly hard landing you had yesterday might have bent something that's going to become an expensive fix somewhere down the road.

The points about not really knowing exactly what you want/need in an airplane until you start flying are very valid as well. Its easy to buy too little or too much plane for your needs if you don't have any experience.

That being said, there are many out there who bought a plane to learn to fly in. Owning is generally way more convenient than renting because your plane is always waiting for you and only you. But ownership is not without its own learning curve and challenges.
 
The older Son got his private in the family Warrior, went most excellent. It all depends, with 3 of you training that’s a fair amount, could be workable.

Some may depend on where you live & how convenient the rental market is. If there was a great club nearby, with CFIs, that would be hard to beat. If you live out a ways, but can line up a CFI, could be a great idea.

A Cherokee/Archer or Warrior of some flavor is worthy of consideration.
 
If you get lucky and find a solid plane, I think it’d be worth if 2 or more people are going to use it for training. Even if you sold it after for a bit of a loss.

You don’t have scheduling conflicts and you have nobody but yourself to be mad at if it gets bent. if You have cheap fuel on the field, you don’t break anything, and nothing on the plane breaks from wear or age, you might save some good money. Bend a firewall, wing, or have an exhaust valve fail, and it might cost you a lot more and some time to boot.

Now that I type that it looks like I think it’s a bad idea. Lol

The bottom line is you either want to own an airplane or you don’t. There’s almost no scenario where it’s financially a good idea if you remove emotion from the equation. Lol
 
I was learning to fly and learning to be an owner at the same time from zero hours. I don't see much issue there and I sure as heck took pre-flight and issues pretty darn serious. I would like to think I was more careful and cautious than a renter but who knows.

Owning a plane is about availability. You own it and unless its down for mx its available and now its between you, your wallet, your free time, your CFI, low ceilings and nasty crosswinds.

My advice would be to start the most serious person of the 3 on a rental and get through solo plus about 5...10 hours. If they haven't bailed or quit then find a 172 or Archer with at least 50% time left on the motor and in as good of shape as you can possibly verify (hint: a great mechanic will save you $$$$).

Person # 1 can finish up in your own plane and then start the others out. Maybe they also rent to solo or maybe you have a rockstar CFI who will really watch over you plane and have #2 and #3 do all training in the same plane. You will save some money, especially with 3 pilots vs 1. However the fuel and CFI costs won't be any less. And if you are a dedicated owner you will either put another $25/hr into a motor rebuild fund or be willing to take that loss when you sell. Around here a 172 rental is easily $150/hr wet. You could probably operate at $90/hr wet (includes everything but loan financing and hangar costs above $300/month. So you aren't saving as much as you thought but if all 3 take 70hrs each, that's around 200hrs x $60/hr => $12,000. Using national averages that gets your 3 pilots trained for the price of 2. So its not like you saved a ton of money.

Now the flip side. If during the training a motor is blown and not a insurable event then you'll be looking at $35K to save that $12K. Plus a couple months of no availability....or renting. If just one of the 3 is not very responsible this is one example of that risk.
 
@CAVEMANTACTICS said:
Does the up front cost justify purchasing now or just rent then purchase. Have $70k we can use and I can find many LSA around for that price.
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Just to emphasize what's been said for the TL;DR crowd:

  • For three people to get their PPL, if you own the plane, you certainly don't have to worry about availability. It's yours, so it's always available, pending maint issues.
  • The cost of ownership for the duration SHOULD be less than the cost of renting the same for the purpose. But circumstances can happen that make this not so.

Next step:

  • Will a LSA type aircraft serve your purpose after the training is done, or will you be looking for a more capable steed? A family-hauler perhaps?
 
A couple that is based at my home drone did this. A 172 was bought initially and then placed on leaseback to the flight school, so it generated some revenue while the two of them did their flight training. Later on, they sold the 172 and purchased a Saratoga and now they have a Duchess to work on their ME rating.

So, if you can buy an airplane at the right price and draw a good deck of cards, than I think it’s definitely more cost effective for both of you.
 
It can work, it has hazards, but the nicer / cleaner / low-ish or mid-time engine aircraft that is relatively common and desirable should be a reasonably-low-risk proposition that can still bite you. If I had the money in that scenario, I'd probably take the risk.
 
@CAVEMANTACTICS said:
Wanting to purchase a plane for the wife and myself to get licensed & possibly my nephew. Is it worth it as long as it can be resold or used a lot in the future?
Who has done this and have you found it to be worth it?
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This has been done a countless times.
If you have the money to pay upfront, you can save yourself a decent amount in rent, aggravation in scheduling and learn a lot about ownership in the process. And the airplane is always there in the same condition you left it in. No other students breaking things.
Any competent person can learn to fly and own at the same time. They are separate initiatives at different times.
An even bigger bang for the buck can be had if the airplane has any decent avionics and you can re-use it also for instrument training afterwards.
 
I sold my Skyhawk to a man and his son, who used it to get their private tickets. Then they sold it to someone else. I think I'm the only one that took a beating (sold at low point in market.)
 
Buy a plane, Fly it as needed then sell it for $20,000 more. It works well.
I have never took a loss on a airplane and I have owned many planes.
A airplane is the only thing I can think of that gains value other than high end classic cars and real estate. I consider my planes a fun place to invest my money.
 
@CAVEMANTACTICS said:
Wanting to purchase a plane for the wife and myself to get licensed & possibly my nephew. Is it worth it as long as it can be resold or used a lot in the future?
Who has done this and have you found it to be worth it?
Click to expand...

I dunno, Never done it. But this has been pro and con'd here before. I would think comparing it to the rental costs, three people would lean it it toward the pro side.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I would generally advise against purchasing a plane until you get your certificate and have a better idea of what kind of plane suits you best. What you think you want now may not be what you want later, and selling a plane is a b******.
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Selling a airplane is the easiest thing in the world to sell unless you are trying to sell a POS. I have never had any issues.
You are right everyone has a different flying mission. That's why I have 6 planes in the hangar now :D
One plane won't fit every mission:cool:
 
Take a few lessons in a rental and see what you think, if you're sure this is a thing you want to pursue then go for it.

The big question we need an answer to to recommend a plane is what would like to do with it after the long road to getting your certificate?
 
cowman said:
Take a few lessons in a rental and see what you think, if you're sure this is a thing you want to pursue then go for it.

The big question we need an answer to to recommend a plane is what would like to do with it after the long road to getting your certificate?
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Not really. Just get a solid trainer that will flip quickly.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Not really. Just get a solid trainer that will flip quickly.
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There's nothing wrong with that, but for 70k he might be able to find a trainer that will also meet his post certificate needs. You do that and you come right out of the gate with training and time in type for insurance and just general safety/knowledge. I bought my Archer while training and kept flying it all over for years after, only upgraded because our family grew and I needed the extra space.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Pigpen knows whereof he speaks. I’ve sold 4 myself and only lost money on one, which was a bit of a fire sale because of circumstances.
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Yeah, for you guys that have been around planes all their lives, I’m sure that’s true. But for us mortals, it’s very easy to lose your shirt buying and selling a plane.
 
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Salty said:
Yeah, for you guys that have been around planes all their lives, I’m sure that’s true. But for us mortals, it’s very easy to lose your shirt buying and selling a plane.
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Yeah, I get that, so work with someone who has experience and can evaluate with a little less emotion to get a good deal. Tying up 70K in a training plane doesn’t meet my idea of financial responsibility, even if one could spend it. Find a good bird for $15-24K that you aren’t likely to lose your shirt on, put 200 hours on it, then you’ll be a better educated buyer for a keeper plane.
 
Sinistar said:
I was learning to fly and learning to be an owner at the same time from zero hours. I don't see much issue there and I sure as heck took pre-flight and issues pretty darn serious. I would like to think I was more careful and cautious than a renter but who knows.

Owning a plane is about availability. You own it and unless its down for mx its available and now its between you, your wallet, your free time, your CFI, low ceilings and nasty crosswinds.

My advice would be to start the most serious person of the 3 on a rental and get through solo plus about 5...10 hours. If they haven't bailed or quit then find a 172 or Archer with at least 50% time left on the motor and in as good of shape as you can possibly verify (hint: a great mechanic will save you $$$$).

Person # 1 can finish up in your own plane and then start the others out. Maybe they also rent to solo or maybe you have a rockstar CFI who will really watch over you plane and have #2 and #3 do all training in the same plane. You will save some money, especially with 3 pilots vs 1. However the fuel and CFI costs won't be any less. And if you are a dedicated owner you will either put another $25/hr into a motor rebuild fund or be willing to take that loss when you sell. Around here a 172 rental is easily $150/hr wet. You could probably operate at $90/hr wet (includes everything but loan financing and hangar costs above $300/month. So you aren't saving as much as you thought but if all 3 take 70hrs each, that's around 200hrs x $60/hr => $12,000. Using national averages that gets your 3 pilots trained for the price of 2. So its not like you saved a ton of money.

Now the flip side. If during the training a motor is blown and not a insurable event then you'll be looking at $35K to save that $12K. Plus a couple months of no availability....or renting. If just one of the 3 is not very responsible this is one example of that risk.
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Very solid info. Didn't cross my mind about if a motor went out. I was thinking of other issues.
We are 10 mins from Rocky Mountain Regional Airport which makes it easy to get to and hanger space is plentiful with business jets being gone a lot.
Definitely the best advice everyone is right there is pros and cons yet the pros seem solid with 3 of us using it.
The question becomes which is the better training plane with the best resale?
 
@CAVEMANTACTICS said:
Very solid info. Didn't cross my mind about if a motor went out. I was thinking of other issues.
We are 10 mins from Rocky Mountain Regional Airport which makes it easy to get to and hanger space is plentiful with business jets being gone a lot.
Definitely the best advice everyone is right there is pros and cons yet the pros seem solid with 3 of us using it.
The question becomes which is the better training plane with the best resale?
Click to expand...
You did add one bit information I probably missed earlier...you will be around some pretty high Density Altitudes so that should play a role in whatever you buy or rent. I would think you would be looking at 180HP planes or better. Like Archer/Cherokee 180. I am guessing 172's are fine out there. Otherwise you are moving up in HP to the Dakota / Skylane, etc. Probably overall better for your summers and flying up to the higher elevations above Denver but now you are getting more spendy.

Also, do you plan on transient hangar rental based on: "hanger space is plentiful with business jets being gone a lot" or do you mean you should be able to snag a hangar and get it for minimum 1yr lease? The transient (get it when its open) will be more spendy and the long term leases can have long wait lists. Another thing to add to your ownership list.
 
@CAVEMANTATICS:

If you decide to buy here is another item that could really get you. The Rocky Mountain airport (you meant KBJC right?) is under the Denver Mode 'C' Veil. To operate an aircraft under that airspace after Dec 31st of this year will required what is called ADSB out. Without it you will be in violation of a 14.CFR.xxx.

A very clever seller who knows you don't know anything about airplanes could sell you a nice [insert plane type here] and not inform you of this. Heck, he might even have it priced lower than other similar planes that do have the ADSB out installed.

Well there is a reason. If you install the equipment via a well known transponder replacement (Garmin, Lynx, etc) you are easily looking at $7.5K or more. There are some simpler versions that mount behind the panel for under $2K but might require another $2k of labor and may even need a newer transponder anyway. The cheapest option is a device that mounts on the wingtip or up on the tail and also replaces your old light bulb with an LED. Thankfully, those are around $1800 and maybe another $100..$200 for light labor and some paperwork. However, that cheapest option may not be certified for every type of plane.

I would hate to have you buy the plane (which can take a few months). Then its late October and you start your lessons and on Jan 1st you can not fly it without spending big $$$$ on ADSB out.

Or put another way, if you can find a plane with ADSB out already installed you have done well (and paid a bit more but that is okay). If you are in doubt, please post the listing here and people can help you understand what you are and are not getting.

Finally, do not confuse ADSB in and ADSB out. The ADSB in devices are optional and very useful. But they do not meet the mandate.

Lots to learn but you will get there. And there are some very savvy pilots and owners in that area that might be able to meet you and talk over coffee or dinner, show you their plane and explain all this stuff in person. But please, keep posting and asking if it helps you get this right. I think its worth it :)
 
Over the years I've seen it go well, (and bad) both ways. Most important. You need to take your time and try to find someone with aviation experience, who you can trust, and who is willing to help you.

Honestly, the vast majority of airplane people are really good people, but, there are also some arrogant and greedy folks out there that will attempt to take you for everything you're worth. Don't fall victim. Personally, I don't have two nickels to rub together.

If you can't come up with a friend, you're probably better off finding an off the beaten path airport with a small flight school. Smaller and more remote, the better. Big flight schools at controlled fields are normally one of the more costly avenues. You pay for the plane and instructor the entire time you're trying to get out to the practice area where you do the majority of your learning, and then you pay for some more wasted time to get back to your parking spot.

If you find a friend, he can assist you with the decisions necessary to find and maintain a good aircraft. Without a friend, you can easily go broke, get discouraged, or both.

I know of one particular airplane, relatively recently, that was purchased by a man who wanted to use it to get his, and his two kids their licenses. Over the first few months, they started training, and not knowing any better, they let a mechanic top the engine, as well as perform several other repairs on the plane. (majority of the work could have easily been deferred until after they had completed their training) The repair bills forced the poor guy to sell the airplane, and run. None of them could afford to go on and get their licenses.

Shortly thereafter, that very same trainer aircraft was bought by another individual who is now about to finish his training.

So, as I said, it can go either way, but you need a friend.
 
Unless you are going to keep the plane after training, it wouldn’t be worth it.
 
I've always only rented. The rule of thumb is you have to fly 100 hours/year to break even on rental vs. ownership, so I'd go with rent first, to see how much the plane is used. Also, if you decide to buy a plane while training, I'd wait until after you've soloed, so you can learn how to land in, and beat up someone else's plane.

Someone mentioned leaseback to defray the cost of ownership. It can be done, and it can also be a nightmare. I suggest you read Captain Jack's leaseback advice if you are interested in leasebacks.

An IFR ticket opens up a lot more flying than a standard VFR PPL, but I think an IFR plane's annual would be a bit more than a VFR plane only annual as the IFR has more avionics to check, and you're flying around doing VFR work with avionics you don't need adding to your empty weight and current draw. That's another reason to wait until you've at least soloed. In any case, good luck, and if you decide to buy a plane, post some pictures.
 
These claiming an airplane as a good investment are deluding themselves. Aircraft are expensive to house, feed and maintain. Between insurance and required maintenance you're likely to be out thousands a year, and we're not even talking about squawks and breakdowns. The real advantage over renting is in a rental situation those costs are built in, you're still paying them. The other really big advantage is if you own an aircraft you've an incentive to fly, you've paid all that money and you want to use the darn thing. If you are renting its a disincentive, you have to pay every time you go fly.

People used to tell me houses were a good investment. If I total up everything I've spent on my house and compare it to what I'll likely get in a sale, I think I'd have done better in a rental situation.
 
Probably. It's somewhere between 7500-10k for rental time to get a private certificate.

Assume you could pretty much sell the plane for what you buy it for - the cost of the plane becomes a non factor in the equation. Now you might not sell it afterwards, but thats a different thing.

The two of you are looking at 15-20k rental expenses over the next year, more or less depending on the area. Will operating a plane cost you that much? Insurance, hangar, gas, maintenance...Maybe. You need to find the answer to those numbers and crunch the numbers.

Where are you at? The numbers change from location to location.
 
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