Wake Turbulence - Avoiding

CC268

CC268

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CC268
Another wake turbulence thread...I have read probably everyone posted on here so far.

I flew out of Scottsdale (KSDL) when I did my PPL. For the 50 some hours of flying I was constantly landing behind business jets (Citations, Hawkers, etc). I always got the "caution wake turbulence" spiel from Tower. But to be honest I never thought about it all that much (other than trying to land past where they touched down). I never had any issues at all. Taking off your supposed to rotate before they do - but I can't out-climb a jet in my Cherokee 140 so at some point I am going to cross their path...how do you avoid this?

How do you know where a jet's flight path/ glideslope is if they landed a few minutes ahead of you? At that point it seems like your just taking a wild ass guess. Just a bit spooked after reading about these pilots getting flipped over and killed on final from wake turbulence. I don't plan on flying behind any 747s...I have ran into wake turbulence up around the practice area (business jets fly to the west of the practice area coming into Scottsdale).
 
Besides distances/time behind and flying above their approach path, watch for the 'sneaky' ways to get bit. That is, a slight breeze blowing their wake towards your flight path.

Another can be simply being vectored 60 seconds behind & 1000' under that 737. Then we have the helicopters doing a hover along the edge of the runway, upwind side. Most little airports it's seldom a factor, not the case at a mixed airport.

I will say, wake encounters have caught very experienced flyers, which ended in a tragic outcome. Sometimes one needs that S.A. ratcheted up to 125%.
 
Wake turbulence is very serious. Recent deaths due to it at Reno (KRNO). The danger is highest in calm winds since the wake turbulence will persist in the air.
 
I just stay high and try to estimate where their touchdown point is. If I'm still uncomfortable, I'll ask to do a 360 and rejoin final.
 
This is another reason I love my instrument rating. I can fly high a dot or 2on approach and build some safety margin. On departure, just keep a close eye and try to get up and out. Easier to avoid on approach then departure I guess - watch out and be careful.
 
Take some time and read 7-3-6 and 7-3-8 in the AIM. Good stuff on how to avoid wake turb. Also read 7-3-9 to understand the down and dirty on how ATC increases basic sep for wake turb sep.

You won't truly get a feel until you fly through it many times with different types of aircraft. Problem is, trying to figure out what aircraft, distance and altitudes will rock your world and which situations are no factor. Something that can't be taught in books.
 
Velocity173 said:
Take some time and read 7-3-6 and 7-3-8 in the AIM. Good stuff on how to avoid wake turb. Also read 7-3-9 to understand the down and dirty on how ATC increases basic sep for wake turb sep.

You won't truly get a feel until you fly through it many times with different types of aircraft. Problem is, trying to figure out what aircraft, distance and altitudes will rock your world and which situations are no factor. Something that can't be taught in books.
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Cool I will check those out in the AIM.

Sometimes I can't help but feel a bit overwhelmed by all the things that can go wrong and all the things you have to keep in mind while flying...forget one thing and you might be a dead man. I just want to make sure I am the safest pilot I can be but sometimes it's a bit unnerving to know that some day it might be out of your hands and you might not make it out alive.
 
CC268 said:
Taking off your supposed to rotate before they do - but I can't out-climb a jet in my Cherokee 140 so at some point I am going to cross their path...how do you avoid this?
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There are two ways. Ask tower for an early turn on course, and delay your takeoff for an appropriate amount of time

How do you know where a jet's flight path/ glideslope is if they landed a few minutes ahead of you?
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Unless you see the jet land very long, you should assume that they touched down somewhere near the big white boxes on the runway, aka the touchdown zone. Give them an extra hundred yards or three, and plan on touching down there.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
There are two ways. Ask tower for an early turn on course, and delay your takeoff for an appropriate amount of time



Unless you see the jet land very long, you should assume that they touched down somewhere near the big white boxes on the runway, aka the touchdown zone. Give them an extra hundred yards or three, and plan on touching down there.

-Skip
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That makes sense thanks for the feedback - how long is the appropriate amount of time to delay takeoff?
If ATC says "25L cleared for takeoff" and I want to wait longer do I just say "unable I'd like to wait longer for the wake turbulence?"
 
CC268 said:
That makes sense thanks for the feedback - how long is the appropriate amount of time to delay takeoff?
If ATC says "25L cleared for takeoff" and I want to wait longer do I just say "unable I'd like to wait longer for the wake turbulence?"
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Controllers will clear you for takeoff with the caution. As PIC you can judge what is safe and tell them you will delay a bit before taking the runway.
 
CC268 said:
That makes sense thanks for the feedback - how long is the appropriate amount of time to delay takeoff?
If ATC says "25L cleared for takeoff" and I want to wait longer do I just say "unable I'd like to wait longer for the wake turbulence?"
Click to expand...
They've usually issued the delay for wake turbulence to me on takeoffs, but once I did ask for a delay and they just told me to let them know when I'm ready. (following an Osprey touch and go)

7-3-6 8. recommends 2 minutes delay after a large aircraft low approach or tough and go.
 
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Quit bitching! People pay good money to go upside down in airplanes.

:)
 
All aircraft wakes are dangerous, even from a Cessna single engine.

In 1976 a Cessna 206 seaplane crashed at Pender Harbour, due to closely following another 206 seaplane during takeoff. All 5 aboard were killed.
 
kayoh190 said:
Quit bitching! People pay good money to go upside down in airplanes.

:)
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Oh I've been going upside down in the Great Lakes...hammerheads, snap rolls, loops, etc. Sunday might be doing some inverted flat spins. I just don't want to go upside down 100ft off the ground :)
 
kgruber said:
All aircraft wakes are dangerous, even from a Cessna single engine.

In 1976 a Cessna 206 seaplane crashed at Pender Harbour, due to closely following another 206 seaplane during takeoff. All 5 aboard were killed.
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Yea...but I hear the Cessna 206 on floats is notorious for a big wake
 
In all honesty I think flying cross country scares me more than aerobatics does...wake turbulence, turbulence in general...sketchy stuff o_O
 
CC268 said:
Another wake turbulence thread...I have read probably everyone posted on here so far.

I flew out of Scottsdale (KSDL) when I did my PPL. For the 50 some hours of flying I was constantly landing behind business jets (Citations, Hawkers, etc). I always got the "caution wake turbulence" spiel from Tower. But to be honest I never thought about it all that much (other than trying to land past where they touched down). I never had any issues at all. Taking off your supposed to rotate before they do - but I can't out-climb a jet in my Cherokee 140 so at some point I am going to cross their path...how do you avoid this?

How do you know where a jet's flight path/ glideslope is if they landed a few minutes ahead of you? At that point it seems like your just taking a wild ass guess. Just a bit spooked after reading about these pilots getting flipped over and killed on final from wake turbulence. I don't plan on flying behind any 747s...I have ran into wake turbulence up around the practice area (business jets fly to the west of the practice area coming into Scottsdale).
Click to expand...

How do you know? Because most commercial airliners always fly the glideslope as a matter of policy. If you are higher then it, (3 white 1 red for example) you are usually going to be fine. Land long.

Taking off, you can ask for a sidestep, or worst case, just wait. You aren't going to outclimb a jet on takeoff in a piston, which is why a sidestep is always a good plan if you have winds right down the runway as you can step upwind and the vortices will pass downwind.

I fly out of an airport where C130's like to do T&G's and practice approaches. Had one a few Saturdays ago actually on a Young Eagles flight. Just gotta understand where the winds are blowing to understand where the vortices are going to approximately be at and when.
 
Caramon13 said:
How do you know? Because most commercial airliners always fly the glideslope as a matter of policy. If you are higher then it, (3 white 1 red for example) you are usually going to be fine. Land long.

Taking off, you can ask for a sidestep, or worst case, just wait. You aren't going to outclimb a plane on takeoff, which is why a sidestep is always a good plan if you have winds right down the runway as you can step upwind and the vortices will pass downwind.

I fly out of an airport where C130's like to do T&G's and practice approaches. Had one a few Saturdays ago actually on a Young Eagles flight. Just gotta understand where the winds are blowing to understand where the vortices are going to approximately be at and when.
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Hmm good point on the glideslope...good info thanks
 
When pattern flying I regularly get follow the FedEx heavy, clear to land runway 36, caution wake... my typical answer is always, 343b would extend downwind by 2 miles to avoid wake, first time my CFI told me that by the time I turn base and final the wake would be gone when the jet passes my wingtip, I just don't take chances. No hurry to get anywhere, definitely not to the other side

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
CC268 said:
That makes sense thanks for the feedback - how long is the appropriate amount of time to delay takeoff?
If ATC says "25L cleared for takeoff" and I want to wait longer do I just say "unable I'd like to wait longer for the wake turbulence?"
Click to expand...
I just did a unable yesterday in that situation even when my CFI assured we should be good, more so, because I wanted to say unable over the air

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Kind of funny...went out and flew today and sure enough a Medivac jet took off right in front of me...tower cleared me for takeoff and I asked if i could wait longer for the wake turbulence. He simply canceled my take off clearance...I waited and then got the clearance a minute or so later and then I sidestepped the runway when I took off as well just to be careful
 
Newbie question on side stepping, u follow the centerline then immediately upon rotating move left / right, or do u actually do the roll out on the left / right of the centerline, assuming the runway is wide enough?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
WannFly said:
Newbie question on side stepping, u follow the centerline then immediately upon rotating move left / right, or do u actually do the roll out on the left / right of the centerline, assuming the runway is wide enough?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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Follow the centerline. Rotate and turn left or right.
 
Likely your initial angle of climb will exceed the jet's, if not your climb rate, of course. So cheat to the upwind side of the runway, and make your first turn before you cross his path.
 
Sundancer said:
Likely your initial angle of climb will exceed the jet's, if not your climb rate, of course. So cheat to the upwind side of the runway, and make your first turn before you cross his path.
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Good point...

Honestly everyone knows my Cherokee 140 outclimbs any jet anyways
 
Any large, slow aircraft can cause severe wake turbulence. There's a sobering YouTube video of wake from an Antonov AN-25.

I forget about helicopter rotor wash. Will keep that in mind.
 
N659HB said:
Any large, slow aircraft can cause severe wake turbulence. There's a sobering YouTube video of wake from an Antonov AN-25.

I forget about helicopter rotor wash. Will keep that in mind.
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CC268 said:
Kind of funny...went out and flew today and sure enough a Medivac jet took off right in front of me...tower cleared me for takeoff and I asked if i could wait longer for the wake turbulence. He simply canceled my take off clearance...I waited and then got the clearance a minute or so later and then I sidestepped the runway when I took off as well just to be careful
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Ha, I thought about this thread today. At one point I was in the pattern with a c130, a P3 Orion and a 757, all doing touch and go's, and me in a 172.
 
Velocity173 said:

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We always have helicopters flying at my field as the Phoenix police have a helicopter stationed there and there are multiple medivac helicopters...to some extent it sounds like you can't always avoid every situation (especially if you hadn't seen the path of the helicopter) I guess the best you can do is see and avoid what you can.
 
CC268 said:
We always have helicopters flying at my field as the Phoenix police have a helicopter stationed there and there are multiple medivac helicopters...to some extent it sounds like you can't always avoid every situation (especially if you hadn't seen the path of the helicopter) I guess the best you can do is see and avoid what you can.
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Fortunately helos usually go direct to their ramp and/or use their own pattern so aren't much of a problem. When they do cross paths though watch out. Blackhawks are particularly bad.
 
Clark1961 said:
Fortunately helos usually go direct to their ramp and/or use their own pattern so aren't much of a problem. When they do cross paths though watch out. Blackhawks are particularly bad.
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Discrimination! #Blackhawklivesmatter.:D

FAA did a study about 20 yrs ago with a T-34 flying behind various helos. Page 8 has a chart based on that. Good guidance if you're around these helos of comparable size.

http://www.wakenet.eu/fileadmin/use...etyWorkshop/Day 1 Topic 3 - Pantazopoulou.pdf
 
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