Waiting on STC to be shipped

charheep

charheep

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charheep
My plane is in annual. On Nov 6th they found that the battery box is missing the STC. Long story, lots of raised BP about that. So on Nov 6th, or even call it the 7th, my shop ordered the correct STC from the STC owner. It is now the 19th, and still no ETA on when it will be shipped. Its a AL battery box that moves the battery outside the cabin to the engine compartment. I tried contacting the STC owner directly, but no luck, no response. Is this typical? My plane is sitting for a aluminum box and no one can tell me how much longer.
 
Can you do it on a 337 with a field approval?
 
Did you try contacting the owner before placing the order? There are a lot of old websites out there with STC's that are no longer produced. Who was the STC holder? Is it just paperwork or are you waiting on parts?
 
Sounds like an annual. My plane got quarantined last annual for having some of the labels on the seatbelts worn and unreadable.
 
AC43.13-2B. Read chapter 10. And then read the opening paragraph of the AC. You don't need an STC. The producer of the box did in order to sell it but that's of little concern to you.
 
AA5Bman said:
Sounds like an annual. My plane got quarantined last annual for having some of the labels on the seatbelts worn and unreadable.
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Fine tip Sharpie to the rescuuuuuuueeeeee!!
 
Stewartb said:
No, that's a good mechanic doing his job. It is his certificate at risk.
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Absolutely. According to AC 43.13, he needs to show that that battery location has been previously approved so he will need the STC. Otherwise he needs to do the static testing.
 
Stewartb said:
You don't need an STC. The producer of the box did in order to sell it but that's of little concern to you.
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Not quite. If you install an item designed/produced under an STC you need that piece of paper (91.403(d) to be legal. If you design/fabricate your own item then 43.12-2B is one guide.
 
Grum.Man said:
There are a lot of old websites out there with STC's that are no longer produced.
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FYI: If an STC has moved into the public domain then contact a FSDO for the proper docs.
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: If an STC has moved into the public domain then contact a FSDO for the proper docs.
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How does one prove it has moved to public domain?

I’m in that position on a project I’m working on. The guy who was the STC holder died and the son has kind of been supporting it but based on his knowledge level I suspect he really doesn’t have the proper authority to be doing what he is doing. I’ve called the FSDO and ran into a dead end there so we’re currently working through another IA (who is doing some other work on the plane for us) on a field approval (with a FSDO with more common sense).

This could all be avoided if the FSDO would just provide the proper docs that we need. I imagine they have them but I haven’t been successful in talking them into helping us out...
 
I dont want to give a ton of details until this annual is over, but yes, I admit I textbook trusted and screwed up every step of the way with this purchase and annual. The battery box, umm, was never offically STC'd. No one caught it or cared until my first annual. So the mechanic will not release the plane until the actual STC is installed with the paperwork. I was just more curious on is this timeframe is typical. i dont believe, other than getting a ferry permit and flying the plane to another mechanic, that I have any other options.

According to the mechanic-The STC # is SA00423SE
 
finding a mechanic that won’t let important things go unnoticed but won’t be picky about nonsense that won’t cause you to die is an important part of ownership.
 
charheep said:
I dont want to give a ton of details until this annual is over, but yes, I admit I textbook trusted and screwed up every step of the way with this purchase and annual. The battery box, umm, was never offically STC'd. No one caught it or cared until my first annual. So the mechanic will not release the plane until the actual STC is installed with the paperwork. I was just more curious on is this timeframe is typical. i dont believe, other than getting a ferry permit and flying the plane to another mechanic, that I have any other options.

According to the mechanic-The STC # is SA00423SE
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Your other option is put the battery back in the original position.
 
STC Number:
SA00423SE

This certificate issued to:
Aviation Enterprises Unlimited LLC

STC Holder's Address:
42313 S.E. Oral Hull Road
Sandy OR 97055
United States

Description of the Type Design Change:
Installation of stainless steel battery box.

Application Date:
02/10/1996

Status:
Reissued, 10/23/2003

Responsible Office:
Seattle Aircraft Certification Office (ANM-100S), Tel: (425) 917-6400
 
charheep said:
I dont want to give a ton of details until this annual is over, but yes, I admit I textbook trusted and screwed up every step of the way with this purchase and annual. The battery box, umm, was never offically STC'd. No one caught it or cared until my first annual. So the mechanic will not release the plane until the actual STC is installed with the paperwork. I was just more curious on is this timeframe is typical. i dont believe, other than getting a ferry permit and flying the plane to another mechanic, that I have any other options.

According to the mechanic-The STC # is SA00423SE
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So, is this battery box the STCd part just lacking paperwork or is the mechanic trying to apply an STC for a part that is not on your airplane?

A couple common things seem to happen. The first is that some owner buys the STCd part second hand and doesn’t have the supporting paperwork. Some mechanic (or owner) installs it without getting the proper authorization and paperwork. Then you’re in the position you’re in. The second thing that happens is that the owner or mechanic essentially copies the STC, fabricating the parts. Then there is no paperwork for that conversion.

Does your mechanic know what he is really dealing with?

My old bonanza had the battery forward of the firewall, in a Piper battery box. There was zero documentation for the mod but it was done years ago and was done so well that the subsequent mechanics annualing it never even realized it wasn’t original. I figured it out, but only after having more knowledge of what the Bonanzas were supposed to be configured like.
 
mondtster said:
The guy who was the STC holder died and the son has kind of been supporting it but based on his knowledge level I suspect he really doesn’t have the proper authority to be doing what he is doing.
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Unfortunately if the STC is still active, as with his son running things, the feds can't force him to support nor can they release any of the STC material without the holders permission. Here's a link that may help. If the issuing office offers no joy you can always try the ACO as they were the approving entity for the STC.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/stc/stc_install/

As for STCs in public domain search below. You can filter with "surrendered" but not all public domain STCs were surrendered. Alpha is on the right track above. It can be a pain but in my limited experience I found all that I looked for with help from the FSDO or ACO.
ttp://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
 
Bell206 said:
Unfortunately if the STC is still active, as with his son running things, the feds can't force him to support nor can they release any of the STC material without the holders permission. Here's a link that may help. If the issuing office offers no joy you can always try the ACO as they were the approving entity for the STC.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/stc/stc_install/

As for STCs in public domain search below. You can filter with "surrendered" but not all public domain STCs were surrendered. Alpha is on the right track above. It can be a pain but in my limited experience I found all that I looked for with help from the FSDO or ACO.
ttp://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
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I may not have been clear enough. It is still registered to the guy’s father, who has passed on. It was not surrendered. I believe the son thinks he has the authority to do what he is doing but doesn’t really have it. There is very little demand for the STC so my guess is that things are just going unnoticed and the mechanics installing this STC are just looking the other way (he is not providing all the documentation needed to legally install the STC).

It’s a bad situation and we’re working around it but it would be a whole lot easier if we could just talk the FAA into giving us the missing piece of paperwork that the guy doesn’t provide. The field approval is probably the more correct way to go anyway.

Thanks
 
There is no talking them into it if it hasn't been surrendered. If there is another airplane with the approved battery box you can show as an example it will help your case getting a field approval.
 
Bell206 said:
Not quite. If you install an item designed/produced under an STC you need that piece of paper (91.403(d) to be legal. If you design/fabricate your own item then 43.12-2B is one guide.
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That only applies if you file the STC. 43.13-2B doesn't restrict you from using a manufactured box.
 
mondtster said:
It is still registered to the guy’s father, who has passed on. It was not surrendered.
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STCs can be inherited. But if his son is still actively selling the "kit" but not providing the STC documents or drawings then he's in violation of 21.120. Since the FSDO was of no help contact the regional ACO office listed on the STC FAA info page. The ACO doesn't care for people working the system either.
 
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Stewartb said:
43.13-2B doesn't restrict you from using a manufactured box.
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Correct, it doesn't restrict you from using existing parts, etc. provided those items were previously approved. I believe this box was produced/approved under the STC which requires permission to use. Now if they want to fabricate an exact copy (owner produced) or substitute an OEM box then -2B can be used for the alteration.
 
There is nothing in the AC that says the parts must be approved other than approved by the IA.
 
Bell206 said:
STCs can be inherited. But if his son is still actively selling the "kit" but not providing the STC documents or drawings then he's in violation of 21.120. Since the FSDO was of no help contact the regional ACO office listed on the STC FAA info page. The ACO doesn't care for people working the system either.
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I’m pretty sure that’s what’s happening. When you call the guy and ask if he’ll sell you the STC he says “yes” but what he really seems to be selling are copies of drawings which are only a part of the kit. It doesn’t include the required flight manual supplement nor does it include authorization to actually use the paperwork on an airplane.

I don’t want to get the poor guy in trouble but I really don’t think he understands what he is doing, and isn’t really furnishing a complete STC. At this point I think we’ll continue to pursue the field approval but if we can’t get things resolved by spring a call to the ACO might be necessary.
 
Unit74 said:
Calling BS... You cannot concede on PoA. You must argue till the hole is deep enough, then sorta drift off and act like you hadn't seen the rest of your name dragging through the mud till the dust settles a bit. It's in the rules, man.....
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Well you have to call a spade a spade..:rolleyes:
 
Stewartb said:
There is nothing in the AC that says the parts must be approved other than approved by the IA.
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My bad. I took your comment out of context when I thought of this in 2B: "Appreciable savings in time and work may be realized if previously approved data and/or parts are used."

But the issue remains you can't use a part manufactured under an STC without permission from the holder. Even if it is a single part. It's splitting hairs but the STC does offer some IP protection with in the FARs. However, by simply copying it that protection is broken. Or pick any other prefabbed box you want so long as it is not in a protected class of items. This has nothing to do with the final IA approval.
 
charheep said:
I dont want to give a ton of details until this annual is over, but yes, I admit I textbook trusted and screwed up every step of the way with this purchase and annual. The battery box, umm, was never offically STC'd. No one caught it or cared until my first annual. So the mechanic will not release the plane until the actual STC is installed with the paperwork. I was just more curious on is this timeframe is typical. i dont believe, other than getting a ferry permit and flying the plane to another mechanic, that I have any other options.

According to the mechanic-The STC # is SA00423SE
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Sorry if I'm dense, but I still don't understand whether you're waiting on a new battery box or a piece of paper.
 
mondtster said:
I don’t want to get the poor guy in trouble but I really don’t think he understands what he is doing, and isn’t really furnishing a complete STC.
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Don't worry about that. If you are having the problem, others may be too. The FAA might be able to help this guy so that he can properly furnish all that is necessary. A call to the FAA may be the best thing for everyone involved.
 
Bell206 said:
My bad. I took your comment out of context when I thought of this in 2B: "Appreciable savings in time and work may be realized if previously approved data and/or parts are used."

But the issue remains you can't use a part manufactured under an STC without permission from the holder. Even if it is a single part. It's splitting hairs but the STC does offer some IP protection with in the FARs. However, by simply copying it that protection is broken. Or pick any other prefabbed box you want so long as it is not in a protected class of items. This has nothing to do with the final IA approval.
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Of course you can use the part. You just can't use the STC or the approved data that the STC provides. Parts is parts!
 
Forgive me if I’m wrong, I’m sure those with greater understanding will weigh in.

The part of this story that struck me is that the mechanic is holding the plane hostage. A mechanic cannot hold a plane hostage. If he has completed the annual, he needs to sign it off with a list of discrepancies. The missing STC in this case. It is then up to the POC to decide if the plane is airworthy or do what is necessary to resolve the issue.


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