VOR Radials

Kritchlow said:
NDB’s have bearings.
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Yeah. But FWIW, on the outside chance that some one is actually navigating with NDB, and the Controller has a clue how to issue Clearances to said pilot, 'bearing' in it self doesn't tell the whole story. ‘Course to’ enters the story.

4. Nondirectional beacons. State the course to or the bearing from the radio beacon, omitting the word “degree,” followed by the words “course to” or “bearing from,”the name of the radio beacon, and the words “radio beacon.”
EXAMPLE−
“Three Four Zero bearing from Randolph Radio Beacon.”
 
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luvflyin said:
Yeah. But FWIW, on the outside chance that some one is actually navigating with NDB, and the Controller has a clue how to issue Clearances to said pilot, 'bearing' in it self doesn't tell the whole story. ‘Course to’ enters the story.

4. Nondirectional beacons. State the course to or the bearing from the radio beacon, omitting the word “degree,” followed by the words “course to” or “bearing from,”the name of the radio beacon, and the words “radio beacon.”
EXAMPLE−
“Three Four Zero bearing from Randolph Radio Beacon.”
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Still no radial however…
 
Kritchlow said:
NDB’s have bearings.
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More true that referring to radials, but technically, they don’t “have” bearings either. Just a radio beacon. The ADF dial just points to it. The bearings on the ADF card translates our relative position into bearings. Just like the bearing pointers in modern glass.
 
OK, I'll fess up. I've always flown NDB approaches using the concept of radials rather than the mental math forumula. It stems back probably 30 or 40 years to the attached article by Tom Block, a writer for Flying magazine, and captain on USAir I believe at the time. Ever since I used his technique of conceptualizing the ADF information to match the concept of a VOR, NDB approaches became simple for me to fly, as he suggests in the article.

It's too bad that NDB approaches are no longer necessary, because the ADF was a good training tool for situational awareness, and Tom's technique made them fun to fly, although I rarely ever needed to fly one in actual IMC.



ADF Tom Block.jpg
 
I was a subscriber of Flying Magazine, and read that Tom Block Pro's Nest article. It is a good one.

The problem here is claiming that he defines the relationship of radials as identical to VOR radials, when Block points out the similarity to the concept, especially if using an RMI.

Pointing out the similarity, then clearly defining the differences, is the best way to teach NDB approaches and cross country navigation.

Flying a hundred mile cross country with ADF and 45 degree cross wind was challenging, but I did stay within a few degrees of the desired track over the ground, and crossed the NDB without any large heading changes. The easy way to navigate to First Flight. Cape Hatteras nautical NDB.

There is no VOR near my destination airport in central Missouri, but an AM radio station just 2 miles away. I used that after passing St. Louis. Good music, too.
 
dbahn said:
OK, I'll fess up. I've always flown NDB approaches using the concept of radials rather than the mental math forumula.
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The mental math was way beyond me but with no CDI, it didn't make sense for me to think of them as radials either. I finally figured out a way it work for me...just about the time GPS made them, if not irrelevant, at least unnecessary.
dbahn said:
It's too bad that NDB approaches are no longer necessary, because the ADF was a good training tool for situational awareness,
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Bearing pointers are now commonplace in glass PFDs and while it's more RMI than ADF, it is also great for situational awareness. Funny thing is, I absolutely hated ADF but love bearing pointers.
 
midlifeflyer said:
More true that referring to radials, but technically, they don’t “have” bearings either. Just a radio beacon. The ADF dial just points to it. The bearings on the ADF card translates our relative position into bearings. Just like the bearing pointers in modern glass.
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lol!!! Okay… I kind of thought that was implied with the definition of one’s bearings to an object.
 
iamtheari said:
I think that, in this case, the OP was actually one of the first to fly the VOR system and the responses came from people flying with prototype equipment to R&D the first generation of VOR receivers.
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VOR came into being in the 1950s.

My Dad got his Navy wings in 1950, and learned 4 course radio ranges. He later converted to VOR and TACAN nav systems.
 
Pinecone said:
VOR came into being in the 1950s.

My Dad got his Navy wings in 1950, and learned 4 course radio ranges. He later converted to VOR and TACAN nav systems.
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This thread predates all of that. The OP was in 1948. We had to clean the thread up a bit due to some untoward comments about President Truman feeling lonesome without a Vice President. Also, I was exaggerating. :)
 
midlifeflyer said:
The mental math was way beyond me but with no CDI, it didn't make sense for me to think of them as radials either. I finally figured out a way it work for me...just about the time GPS made them, if not irrelevant, at least unnecessary.

Bearing pointers are now commonplace in glass PFDs and while it's more RMI than ADF, it is also great for situational awareness. Funny thing is, I absolutely hated ADF but love bearing pointers.
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I remember being amused that there were people who thought an elaborate conspiracy theory was necessary to explain how a flight crew could screw up that NDB approach in Croatia.
 
Pinecone said:
My Dad got his Navy wings in 1950, and learned 4 course radio ranges. He later converted to VOR and TACAN nav systems.
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No doubt there were a whole bunch of people who said you weren't a real pilot, but "Children of the Ivory" if you followed CDI of a VOR receiver.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No doubt there were a whole bunch of people who said you weren't a real pilot, but "Children of the Ivory" if you followed CDI of a VOR receiver.
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Did four-course range pilots take flak for being Children of the Beep?
 
OP 1948? Wow, that was when VOR was magic navigation. Anybody who has flown an Adcock radio range, which was much superior to simple ADF, can appreciate the amazing precision the VOR achieved.

I was taught the Adcock system, but it was gone before I actually flew it. The last approach using the Adcock ranges was at Norfolk, and went out of service about a year after my PPL check ride.
 
Flying Keys said:
Ok, I’m laughing at how this understated post was entirely overlooked. That is hilarious.

You’re the OP! How did it work out for you, 18 years down the road?
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Well, I finagled my way into a job with a major airline and now a callsign that ends in "heavy". I'm pretty content with how it worked out! (Although I'm still a bit annoyed they didn't ask me about VORs in my interview.)

I had to laugh when I saw this post brought back to life. I might have been jumping the gun a bit in 2006. It was another six years until I had the financial means to start flight training regularly. Got my private certificate in 2013.
 
bqmassey said:
Well, I finagled my way into a job with a major airline and now a callsign that ends in "heavy". I'm pretty content with how it worked out! (Although I'm still a bit annoyed they didn't ask me about VORs in my interview.)

I had to laugh when I saw this post brought back to life. I might have been jumping the gun a bit in 2006. It was another six years until I had the financial means to start flight training regularly. Got my private certificate in 2013.
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Ok, so even more understated than it seemed at first. You’re a pro, haha. Congrats, very cool to hear the rest of the story. Glad it worked out for you!
 
bqmassey said:
Well, I finagled my way into a job with a major airline and now a callsign that ends in "heavy". I'm pretty content with how it worked out! (Although I'm still a bit annoyed they didn't ask me about VORs in my interview.)

I had to laugh when I saw this post brought back to life. I might have been jumping the gun a bit in 2006. It was another six years until I had the financial means to start flight training regularly. Got my private certificate in 2013.
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lol. Just noticed the thread is almost 18 years old. 635 posts in 18 years and you been checkin’ all along. Damn, sorry they didn’t ask you bout’ VOR. We’all mighta been able to get some credit for you being able to answer them.
 
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Flying Keys said:
Ok, so even more understated than it seemed at first. You’re a pro, haha. Congrats, very cool to hear the rest of the story. Glad it worked out for you!
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Thanks!

luvflyin said:
lol. Just noticed the thread is almost 18 years old. 635 posts in 18 years and you been checkin’ all along. Damn, sorry they didn’t ask you bout’ VOR. We’all mighta been able to get some credit for you being able to answer them.
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Seriously though, POA as a whole—along with several POA members individually—were a huge help along the way. I think one of the best things a person can do when they’re just starting out is to find a community of people that are already doing what you want to do. It expands the amount of information and lessons-learned you’re exposed to. And when you hit a rough patch, it’s motivating to see what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like. It was largely the people of the old AOPA board and POA that made up my aviation community, especially in the early stages, when I needed it the most. So as far as I’m concerned, POA deserves some credit regardless of VORs!
 
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bqmassey said:
Seriously though, POA as a whole—along with several POA members individually—were a huge help along the way. I think one of the best things a person can do when they’re just starting out is to find a community of people that are already doing what you want to do. It expands the amount of information and lessons-learned you’re exposed to. And when you hit a rough patch, it’s motivating to see what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like. It was largely the people of the old AOPA board and POA that made up my aviation community, especially in the early stages, when I needed it the most. So as far as I’m concerned, POA deserves some credit regardless of VORs!
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PoA has absolutely made me a much better pilot than I would have been in isolation.
 
POA!

POA!!

POA!!!



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