VOR approach with no PT waypoint

Harry Mudd

Harry Mudd

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I'm looking at the VOR 28 approach to Block Island state (KBID). This approach requires a procedure turn, but has no defined waypoint to indicate a starting point for a procedure turn. The only clue is a note to stay within 10NM of the SEY VOR. If you don't have DME or GPS, how do you know when to start the turn?
I suppose you could try to time it, but that seems dicey. If I turn too soon I may not get down in time, but I don't want to be way out over the ocean either. Additionally, I would be coming from the north and turning after I pass over the VOR so it will be far from a straight line.
Seems like there should be a better way. Any thoughts?
 
Harry Mudd said:
I'm looking at the VOR 28 approach to Block Island state (KBID). This approach requires a procedure turn, but has no defined waypoint to indicate a starting point for a procedure turn. The only clue is a note to stay within 10NM of the SEY VOR. If you don't have DME or GPS, how do you know when to start the turn?
I suppose you could try to time it, but that seems dicey. If I turn too soon I may not get down in time, but I don't want to be way out over the ocean either. Additionally, I would be coming from the north and turning after I pass over the VOR so it will be far from a straight line.
Seems like there should be a better way. Any thoughts?
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The starting point is clearly indicated as SEY. If you don’t have DME or RNAV you have to time it. Like at 60 knots it would be a mile a minute. At 120 knots it would be 2 miles a minute. You should have no problem remaining within 10nm of SEY. That being said I think you are thinking the PT begins at the point indicated by the ‘barb.’ It begins at SEY. Flying the 049/229 Barb is just one method of doing it. The only requirement is to do the ‘course reversal’ on the side indicated by the Barb and to remain within 10nm of SEY. Read AIM 5-4-9. Particularly 5-4-9 a. 1. Coming from the North you need to turn left and get to the 274r. You can then join it out bound and then do the ‘Barb’ thing or you could fly through it and do a kinda teardrop thingy on the North side.
 
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the profile view clearly shows SEY as the starting point.......
 
Looks like every other approach where the MAP and IAF are the primary navaid. Nothing unusual here. As luv said you just have to remain within 10 miles. One common practice is to fly outbound for two minutes.
 
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as far as "getting down in time," you're correct that if you do the procedure turn too soon you won't have enough time to lose the 1100 ft required to get to the MDA of 580'. Groundspeed matters here, so you'll just need to plan accordingly. If you don't have DME or GPS, timing is the only thing left and it's not "dicey".

Assuming 0 difference between inbound and outbound groundspeed, first calculate the time required to descend. At 550 fpm, it's 2 minutes. To make it easy, assume the point on the approach course where you start the procedure turn and complete it are the same. As long as you don't turn back towards the runway on your 180 course reversal, you'll actually be a bit farther out coming back than you were when you started which is some extra time.

My thought process goes like this, working backwards from the MAP on the approach:

I'd like 1 minute between reaching the MDA and the MAP.
I'll need 2 minutes to get down to the MDA (550fpm) after completing the PT
Start the procedure turn at 3 minutes.

Circle back and make sure that my GS won't carry me outside 10nm from SEY

120 kts ----> 2nm per min

@ 3 min that's 6 nm, plus the procedure turn distance of 1 min flying the outbound leg which is another 2nm (albeit not directly away from SEY but hey we're close to correct).

8 nm

Something like that. I chose a speed of 120 kts to make the math easy and still remained within 10 nm. I'm guessing with no GPS/DME you're probably slower than that so this would definitely work and keep you even tighter towards the airport. You're flying out over the ocean out of glide distance to the runway anyway you slice it. I wouldn't be concerned about getting too far as long as you remain within 10 nm. If you are concerned, probably need to wait for better weather or go practice this same approach on a mainland VOR.
 
Old school, dead simple, I love it. Quick monkey wrench. You've just completed the outbound portion of the procedure turn which way do you turn inbound - left or right?
 
Arnold said:
Old school, dead simple, I love it. Quick monkey wrench. You've just completed the outbound portion of the procedure turn which way do you turn inbound - left or right?
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You always turn inbound, by turning away from the airport, might be right or left depending, otherwise you could end up too close.
 
Arnold said:
Why?
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Why what? Which way to turn?

Turning away from the airport after the 45 is a common SOP because it gives you more time to set up and correct errors for the inbound leg. Like everything else about the barbed procedure turn (except which side you turn on), it's a matter of choice.
 
KeepWatch said:
as far as "getting down in time," you're correct that if you do the procedure turn too soon you won't have enough time to lose the 1100 ft required to get to the MDA of 580'. Groundspeed matters here, so you'll just need to plan accordingly. If you don't have DME or GPS, timing is the only thing left and it's not "dicey".

Assuming 0 difference between inbound and outbound groundspeed, first calculate the time required to descend. At 550 fpm, it's 2 minutes. To make it easy, assume the point on the approach course where you start the procedure turn and complete it are the same. As long as you don't turn back towards the runway on your 180 course reversal, you'll actually be a bit farther out coming back than you were when you started which is some extra time.

My thought process goes like this, working backwards from the MAP on the approach:

I'd like 1 minute between reaching the MDA and the MAP.
I'll need 2 minutes to get down to the MDA (550fpm) after completing the PT
Start the procedure turn at 3 minutes.

Circle back and make sure that my GS won't carry me outside 10nm from SEY

120 kts ----> 2nm per min

@ 3 min that's 6 nm, plus the procedure turn distance of 1 min flying the outbound leg which is another 2nm (albeit not directly away from SEY but hey we're close to correct).

8 nm

Something like that. I chose a speed of 120 kts to make the math easy and still remained within 10 nm. I'm guessing with no GPS/DME you're probably slower than that so this would definitely work and keep you even tighter towards the airport. You're flying out over the ocean out of glide distance to the runway anyway you slice it. I wouldn't be concerned about getting too far as long as you remain within 10 nm. If you are concerned, probably need to wait for better weather or go practice this same approach on a mainland VOR.
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That seems to be a lot of in-flight thought for a very simple approach. These, and the equivalent on-airport NDB approaches*, were extremely common when I was working on my instrument ticket. Just used a standard 2 minute outbound. The math was a general piece of ground background - 180 GS and 3 minutes (9 miles) outbound might be a problem during the turn, so 2 minutes is no problem.


[* I did the BID NDB in actual to minimums during my IFR dual cross country.]
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why what? Which way to turn?

Turning away from the airport after the 45 is a common SOP because it gives you more time to set up and correct errors for the inbound leg. Like everything else about the barbed procedure turn (except which side you turn on), it's a matter of choice.
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You are correct - I expect nothing less. The use of the word "always" was my concern. As with all flying this is a matter of situational awareness. There is a lot of rote flying out there and the answer is not so simple. Well maybe with GPS it is but what happens when the military degrades the GPS during the next shooting war? Notice to Airmen: Due to national security civilian use of GPS is unavailable until further notice."

There is no right or wrong answer, except to say "always." In aviation is saying always always wrong?
 
midlifeflyer said:
That seems to be a lot of in-flight thought for a very simple approach. These, and the equivalent on-airport NDB approaches*, were extremely common when I was working on my instrument ticket. Just used a standard 2 minute outbound. The math was a general piece of ground background - 180 GS and 3 minutes (9 miles) outbound might be a problem during the turn, so 2 minutes is no problem.


[* I did the BID NDB in actual to minimums during my IFR dual cross country.]
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*Great, you finally go someplace scenic and you can't see anything.

In your example if you find yourself with 1 mile to go just turn to the inbound side instead of the outbound side. Easy fix. Still going outside the airspace, turn 90 degrees instead of 45 degrees. As a general concept approach plates don't tell you how to fly the plane, just where to fly it.
 
Arnold said:
*Great, you finally go someplace scenic and you can't see anything.

In your example if you find yourself with 1 mile to go just turn to the inbound side instead of the outbound side. Easy fix. Still going outside the airspace, turn 90 degrees instead of 45 degrees. As a general concept approach plates don't tell you how to fly the plane, just where to fly it.
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Sure, if you do don’t do it right, then the always doesn’t apply. You’re supposed to start the turn so that you don’t “find yourself with 1 miles to go”. if you follow the advice given by others above that will be the case.
 
[* I did the BID NDB in actual to minimums
Arnold said:
*Great, you finally go someplace scenic and you can't see anything.

In your example if you find yourself with 1 mile to go just turn to the inbound side instead of the outbound side. Easy fix. Still going outside the airspace, turn 90 degrees instead of 45 degrees. As a general concept approach plates don't tell you how to fly the plane, just where to fly it.
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It wasn't really an example. It was a general reference about why, on a practical level, I don't worry about it when using a 2 minute, turn away from the airport SOP, although I also aware that if I am flying in a hurricane, I might need to do something different :D

Don't worry, the NDB to mins was not my only trip there. The other 3 were bright sunny days.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That seems to be a lot of in-flight thought for a very simple approach.
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While it took a while to type out for the benefit of the OP, it's actually not a lot of thought. And if you get any significant headwind on the outbound leg, you'd probably need to be shooting the VOR approach in the opposite direction instead of trying to fit in the descent. Bottom line is it's a good idea to think through the flow of the approach in 3D space as part of the briefing.
 
KeepWatch said:
While it took a while to type out for the benefit of the OP, it's actually not a lot of thought. And if you get any significant headwind on the outbound leg, you'd probably need to be shooting the VOR approach in the opposite direction instead of trying to fit in the descent. Bottom line is it's a good idea to think through the flow of the approach in 3D space as part of the briefing.
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Agreed. It is the major part of my briefing. Pre-briefing technically, sunce it affects which approach I choose to fly.
 
Unfortunately people learn this in Archers or 172s and do the “what” but don’t think about the “why”. I’ve transitioned a handful of people to turbine airplanes who insist that the 2-minutes works, even though we end up more than 13 miles away from the fix in the PT.

Next question on the same approach (VOR 28 at KBID)...what’s the Final Approach Fix? :)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Unfortunately people learn this in Archers or 172s and do the “what” but don’t think about the “why”. I’ve transitioned a handful of people to turbine airplanes who insist that the 2-minutes works, even though we end up more than 13 miles away from the fix in the PT.
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Yeah, they even know they are going to be more than 10 miles and they still turn away from the station. Procedure without situational awareness is of limited value.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So when do you do your “5Ts” for the final approach descent? (When are you considered to be on the final approach course, as normally denoted by a FAF?)
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The Final Approach Segment begins when you are established inbound. That’s gonna happen a few minutes after you did the 5T boogie.
 
Thanks KeepWatch. Estimating the time to descend instead of the distance to descend is the mental shortcut I was looking for. Time out = time to descend + desired time to MAP, even I can do that math in flight. Thanks!
 
luvflyin said:
The Final Approach Segment begins when you are established inbound. That’s gonna happen a few minutes after you did the 5T boogie.
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I do my 5Ts (or equivalent) at the FAF (or equivalent) among other places...when do you do yours?
 
MauleSkinner said:
I do my 5Ts (or equivalent) at the FAF (or equivalent) among other places...when do you do yours?
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Whenever crossing a VOR. If Enroute, ‘throttle’ will probably not be in there unless there was a cross at with a new altitude assignment. If in Radar contact or it’s not a reporting point, ‘talk’ probably won’t be either. On this Approach they should have been done when crossing SEY outbound in the PT. I suppose you could do some abbreviated version again when establishing inbound. Twist certainly wouldn’t be there. That would have already been done.
 
luvflyin said:
Whenever crossing a VOR. If Enroute, ‘throttle’ will probably not be in there unless there was a cross at with a new altitude assignment. If in Radar contact or it’s not a reporting point, ‘talk’ probably won’t be either. On this Approach they should have been done when crossing SEY outbound in the PT. I suppose you could do some abbreviated version again when establishing inbound. Twist certainly wouldn’t be there. That would have already been done.
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I was taught that not all of the Ts are necessary every time you go through them, but it’s a method to ensure the ones that are required get done. Basically for any transition of heading, course, or altitude on an approach. For this particular approach, you’d time at least two of the segments, so I’d do them VOR outbound, PT outbound. I’d also do them as I began my final approach course descent to MDA (a vertical turn is still a turn).
 
MauleSkinner said:
I was taught that not all of the Ts are necessary every time you go through them, but it’s a method to ensure the ones that are required get done. Basically for any transition of heading, course, or altitude on an approach. For this particular approach, you’d time at least two of the segments, so I’d do them VOR outbound, PT outbound. I’d also do them as I began my final approach course descent to MDA.
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Yeah. I do say all five, sometimes the response is not needed. By won’t be there I meant an action. I coulda worded that better.
 
midlifeflyer said:
FWIW, when I teach the 5Ts, it is a briefing which takes place before crossing a fix or making a change.
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Variations in how the 5Ts are applied would probably make for an entertaining thread on its own.

maybe we should send a letter to the Chief Counsel. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Variations in how the 5Ts are applied would probably make for an entertaining thread on its own.
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It would, it does, and it has. I have two favorites. My favorite is arguments about the proper order :rolleyes: And since I love mnemonics sooooo much :no: I really enjoy the the ones where mnemonic lovers feel the need to expand it to 6, 7, 8 or more Ts, thereby removing whatever value it had to begin with.
 
The only five T's I know are oolong, green, black, Sri Lanka, and of course Nestea.
 
I only use 1 T. Trim. So much easier on approaches. :D
 
The only time I've ever done timed VOR approaches was in training. I took a recently minted IFR pilot with me as safety pilot and headed off to a VOR approach in a very non-congested area. We covered up the GPS, there was no DME on the approach, and shot the thing several times. It was a ton of fun and enlightening to go back and look at the track (FF or FlightAware) to evaluate performance. The VOR for the approach was 25-30 nm away. I got close to the airport, but it really emphasized why they call them a "non-precision" approach.
 
KeepWatch said:
The only time I've ever done timed VOR approaches was in training. I took a recently minted IFR pilot with me as safety pilot and headed off to a VOR approach in a very non-congested area. We covered up the GPS, there was no DME on the approach, and shot the thing several times. It was a ton of fun and enlightening to go back and look at the track (FF or FlightAware) to evaluate performance. The VOR for the approach was 25-30 nm away. I got close to the airport, but it really emphasized why they call them a "non-precision" approach.
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Years ago I was at the airport and an MU-2 landed using the NDB-A approach. The NDB was the compass locator at a nearby field. Spoke briefly to the pilot. He said that he figured if an NDB approach got him to the right county he was doing well. Obviously it did better than that the ceiling was pretty close to mins. as I recall.
 
Arnold said:
Okay, Earl Grey. That's six T's. Mark's objection to acronym creep is noted.
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I'm much worse than that. I object to acronyms altogether. Instrument-wise, the Ts and CRAFT are pretty much the only ones I think have any value, and that's primarily for two things - training and refresher.
EdFred said:
I only use 1 T. Trim. So much easier on approaches. :D
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Point taken and wholeheartedly agreed. I don't use them myself.

Every successful instrument pilot does what the Ts represent. It's called staying ahead of the airplane by anticipating what comes next, with or without using the Ts. When I teach them it's intended as a transitional phase. Continuing to use them is the pilots' choice.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'm much worse than that. I object to acronyms altogether. Instrument-wise, the Ts and CRAFT are pretty much the only ones I think have any value, and that's primarily for two things - training and refresher.

Point taken and wholeheartedly agreed. I don't use them myself.

Every successful instrument pilot does what the Ts represent. It's called staying ahead of the airplane by anticipating what comes next, with or without using the Ts. When I teach them it's intended as a transitional phase. Continuing to use them is the pilots' choice.
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I think the 5T's, CRAFT, and whatever you might use when you are just beginning are OK, until you get your own thing going that works for you. Going through old stuff, I found I had printed out a bunch of CRAFT slips of paper AMICEATM (TIS, Marker Beacon check, ID the station, Course, Entry (if a hold), Altitudes, Time, Missed) for approaches, etc.. Now everything is just hand scratch on a basic 5.5 x 8.5 notepad.

But if you fly, and are proficient, you don't have to think about reducing power, making trim adjustments, getting the weather, or turning your CDI to the correct radial/route. It just happens. And if you fly the same plane even checklists get tossed for flows and verification. I've made my own mental "trigger points" on descent/approach that replace the T's and other acronyms, especially when some of them may not apply for that particular approach, like ones that aren't timed, or don't have a FAF.
 
Arnold said:
Old school, dead simple, I love it. Quick monkey wrench. You've just completed the outbound portion of the procedure turn which way do you turn inbound - left or right?
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Dealers choice. As long as you turn on the protected side and stay within 10 miles nobody cares. If you need the time to set up turn right. If you are getting fast and blown way out turn left. 95% of the time ppl turn right.
 
EdFred said:
But if you fly, and are proficient, you don't have to think about reducing power, making trim adjustments, getting the weather, or turning your CDI to the correct radial/route. It just happens.
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Actually, you do think about it, but the thought process is more automatic and internalized and, as you say, you don't need the Ts as a prompt or checklist.

Interesting thing about doing videos even if you don't publish them. I don't publish a lot for many reasons but one is that I'm fairly quiet in the cockpit when I'm alone. Not a lot of self-talk or narration of what I'm doing. But when I listen to a video, I can sometimes hear myself mumbling things like, "210, 2100 at [fix]" somewhere well before the fix.
 
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