Volunteer Private Pilot

RyanB

RyanB

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Ryan
Let’s say you’re a PPL and you have been asked to fly a friend to a specified location. Your gas is paid for by donations to the fuel dealer (to you it's free) and all they need is a pilot.

So are you legal?
 
Ryanb said:
Let’s say you’re a PPL and you have been asked to fly a friend to a specified location. Your gas is paid for by donations to the fuel dealer (to you it's free) and all they need is a pilot.

So are you legal?
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Is the fuel dealer a 501c non-profit?
 
SToL said:
Can a PPL receive compensation for a flight?
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The PP is donating their time and use of the aircraft and the fuel is supplied by a third party. As far as I’m concerned, I don't see any compensation and can’t see a problem with common purpose either.

Even if the argument for ‘flight time is considered compensation’ comes up, what if the private pilot doesn’t log it? They’re essentially just doing it for the sake of being helpful.
 
SToL said:
Is free fuel for a flight compensation? If you check the regs, it specifically mentions 'not paying less than half of fuel costs'.
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So if I’m flying an airplane as a private pilot and a friend says ‘let me take care of your fuel for you.’

That would be illegal?
 
SToL said:
That would be a violation of the regs. You can share 50/50 the cost with him, but you can not pay less than half the cost.
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That’s absurd.
 
I'd say not legal. You held out for your friend, you wouldn't have already been flying to that airport if he didn't ask.
 
Ryanb said:
So if I’m flying an airplane as a private pilot and a friend says ‘let me take care of your fuel for you.’

That would be illegal?
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It would be against the regulations, certainly. And it will cost you your ticket, if caught. As you know. Who are you baiting?
 
Fuel isn’t free. Someone is covering the pilot’s prorated share... this is how I would interpret it.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
It would be against the regulations, certainly. And it will cost you your ticket, if caught. As you know. Who are you baiting?
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I’m not baiting anyone, I’m just trying to figure out what the basis for these regulations are. If I’m on a road trip and my buddy says, ‘let me fill your tank’, he would be able to do that without question. Why is it so much more stringent for a PPL?
 
Ryanb said:
That’s absurd.
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Yes. That's why it's a regulation.

Ryanb said:
Why is it so much more stringent for a PPL?
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Because over the years pilots and operators have worked hard to find creative ways to build hours without paying finding ways to get someone to fly an airplane without actually paying them.
 
Ryanb said:
I’m not baiting anyone, I’m just trying to figure out what the basis for these regulations are. If I’m on a road trip and my buddy says, ‘let me fill your tank’, he would be able to do that without question. Why is it so much more stringent for a PPL?
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I feel your pain. The difference is the definition between a Private Pilot and a Commercial Pilot. The regs say, with few exceptions, you must be a Commercial Pilot to be compensated for flight time.
 
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Ryanb said:
I’m not baiting anyone, I’m just trying to figure out what the basis for these regulations are. If I’m on a road trip and my buddy says, ‘let me fill your tank’, he would be able to do that without question. Why is it so much more stringent for a PPL?
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Because private pilots will start to fly their friends to destinations of their friends' choice. They will, because they do so now, and it would get worse. And that is considered commercial flight, even if no profit is made. If you weren't going to destination A to start with, and you are only going there because your friend wants to go and will pay for gas, you are a charter pilot.
 
SToL said:
I feel your pain. The difference the definition between a Private Pilot and a Commercial Pilot. The regs say, with few exceptions, you must be a Commercial Pilot to be compensated for flight time.
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Guess so. Seems as though whichever way you try to skin it, somehow it becomes illegal.

<sigh>
 
Ryanb said:
Why is it so much more stringent for a PPL?
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Because as a PPL you can not receive anything for flying and per the regs can pay no less than your pro-rata share of the flight costs. FAA even considers logged flight time as compensation.

Now in reality, the FAA is not putting out sting operations if your dad or buddy swipes their credit card at the fuel island pump vs yours when you were all going flying regardless. Now if your buddy says "hey, fly me to XYZ and I will pay for fuel and plane rental"... then you crash and burn on the way there...now you have a problem.
 
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Ryanb said:
The PP is donating their time and use of the aircraft and the fuel is supplied by a third party. As far as I’m concerned, I don't see any compensation and can’t see a problem with common purpose either.
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Here's how this scenario could *possibly* satisfy FAA scrutiny.
1. Determine your operating cost for the flight (one way if you're dropping off). This includes fuel, oil, maintenance, landing fees, parking fees, etc.
2. Accept half of that expense. It may, or may not come out to a tank of fuel.
 
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Ryanb said:
Let’s say you’re a PPL and you have been asked to fly a friend to a specified location. Your gas is paid for by donations to the fuel dealer (to you it's free) and all they need is a pilot.
So are you legal?
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If this is your friend no one has to know. Specially if it is done rarely it is really a matter of agreement between you and him.
You must trust your friend of course not to report you to FAA.

But there are other expenses besides fuel, what about aircraft rental costs (assuming he isn't the owner).
In such case your flight can be perfectly legal - he pays for rental 'dry' cost and you pay for fuel (his payment may far exceed yours).
Both rental and fuel cost can be spread equally between everybody on this flight.

If he owns the aircraft unfortunately he can't ask your to pay pro-rata share of aircraft operating cost (excluding fuel).
 
Shawn said:
Because as a PPL you can not receive anything for flying and per the regs can may no less than your pro-rata share of the flight costs. FAA even considers logged flight time as compensation.

Now in reality, the FAA is not putting out sting operations if your dad or buddy swipes their credit card at the fuel island pump vs yours when you were all going flying regardless. Now if your buddy says "hey, fly me to XYZ and I will pay for fuel and plane rental"... then you crash and burn on the way there...now you have a problem.
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Yeah good point.
 
Ryanb said:
...Even if the argument for ‘flight time is considered compensation’ comes up, what if the private pilot doesn’t log it?
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The Harrington interpretation (linked in Post #16) says that not logging it would avoid the flight time being considered as compensation.

"To avoid compensation, these pilots could either not log the flight time or they could log the flight time while bearing the full cost, including fuel and oil, for ferrying the aircraft."​
 
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I have a great idea: stop thinking this way. Stop thinking of skirting the regulations. Just stop. Don't fly your friends to destinations they choose on their dime, ever. If you are going to Billy's Airport Steakhouse, and they come along, they can pay half.
Keep it simple, or, better yet, get your commercial. Then your friend can rent the plane and pay you to fly them somewhere (within reason—there are still more regulations in play.)
 
What FBO rents planes to non-pilots so that a pilot the FBO hasn't checked out can fly them somewhere?
 
Don't ask, don't tell: especially on a public forum like this. Your other option is to go into the FSDO stark naked and beg them to understand your good intentions, hoping that they give you a nod (even if insincere). The choice, obviously, is yours. Choose wisely.
 
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SToL said:
Personally, I would always reference the FARs before referencing any internet forums, but maybe that's because I had all my ratings before the internet forums came along.
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For sure. I just like to bounce my thoughts off other brains.
 
The FAA has been quite liberal in interpreting what is considered "compensation" for flying. Making your compensation indirect by going through a third party will not shield you from potential enforcement action. There are also the "common purpose" and "flight incidental to the trip" criteria to consider. If you and your passenger do not share a common purpose for the flight, or the flight is not considered incidental to the purpose of the trip, you are also exposed to potential enforcement. Read your regs and be very conservative in your choices.
 
chemgeek said:
The FAA has been quite liberal in interpreting what is considered "compensation" for flying.
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Of course, because that maximizes their domain of operation and the size of their budget. SOP for regulatory agencies.
 
Ryanb said:
Let’s say you’re a PPL and you have been asked to fly a friend to a specified location. Your gas is paid for by donations to the fuel dealer (to you it's free) and all they need is a pilot.

So are you legal?
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It's too bad your scenario wasn't slightly different:

"Let's say you are a PPL and just happen to be flying with your friend to a specified location. Your friend will top off the tanks when you arrive. And you will be topping again when we return".

In that example you each paid for half, give or take a crazy headwind or fuel price difference. How your friend paid for the fuel is up to him. But there's still the fact this is a flight you might not have otherwise taken (common cause or whatever it is called).

About 3 weeks ago I did my first flight ever where someone pitched in for gas. We were both talking about visiting a friend in the hospital (common cause). We figured out his old Jeep would burn as much in gas (round trip) as the plane would one way. So we flew. He topped off there. I topped off when we returned.
 
No one cares. Not even the FAA, unless you make a cottage industry out of it. A friend wants to go to a game in SC. I want to do some flying. He buys me a ticket to the game, I fly him there, he pays for half the fuel.

We probably met the spirit of the rule, but likely didn't meet the letter of the law, since I wasn't going to the game until he asked me about getting there. Did we skirt the "common purpose" - yeah, probably; impossible to prove, since we both went to the game, and I doubt a FSDO would care if the situation came up for me once or twice a year. Even less relevant if my buddy gives me cash for the fuel. What the OP described is a bit shakier, if only because there are multiple entities involved, a paper trail will exist, and it may have the potential for repetetion.
 
It is an absurd rule. If you, as a private pilot were able to fill all 660 economy seats of a 747, then you would only be on the hook for 1/660 the cost of the flight.
 
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