Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible?

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Oliver
As a new instrument pilot, I started to closely follow the weather forecast in order sharpen my go / no go decision making skills.
That being said, I have to admit that I struggle to understand the conditions in which icing is likely to occur.

Let me take the current conditions in Indianapolis as an example:
METAR: KIND 202054Z 33006KT 10SM OVC018 M06/M11
Temps aloft: 3000 ft. -08°C; 6000 ft. -11°C, 9000 ft. -14°C, 12000 ft. -25°C
The area forecast expects tops at 8000 – 12000 ft..

I thought that this combination of clouds and temperatures is the perfect recipe for icing, from 1800 ft. up to at least 9000 ft., before it gets too cold.
Still, though, aviationweather.gov says that icing is currently not a concern in this area.

How is this possible? Would you fly into this and if yes, what would be the reasoning behind your decision?
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Air is -40 or below.

I would fly into it but my plane has anti-ice. If I were flying a plane w/out then any visable moisture from +5 TAT to -40 SAT would be a no go. Vis moisture = precip of any kind and/or cloud / fog with visibility of a mile or less.
 
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Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

I'm showing light icing forcasted over IND on AWC.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

I've been a little confused about this myself so I'm interested to see what everyone has to say.

Air is -40 or below.
^^^^ Would you mind explaining why this air temperature makes a difference? Below freezing is below freezing, right? Why would that number in particular disallow icing?
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Be careful with believing the Icing Sigmets, they help as part of the tool set but not the holy grail of prediction.

Last week I was flying in an area with No icing SIGMET and had Pireps of negative ice just a few miles from where I was and I picked up over 1" of ice during a procedure turn at 4000 ft. It was 42 DEGF ontop and 44DEGF at the airport with 2200 ceiling. (guess I will anticipate that temperature inversion in the clouds next time):eek:

Then on the way home yesterday I flew in an area with Icing sigmet but was VFR under the clouds and temp was around 10 DEGF. No visible snow and over 10 mi visibility but then I entered an area of haze and it was not more than 3 seconds and my windshield wings and any leading edge was building rime rapidly, like a blanket, really rapidly...Guess this was what they call Mist below freezing??

Regarding cloud tops, the best tool I have found is the SKEW-T charts and one of the good apps I have is Skew-T Log Pro. I think its $9 but it runs on my phone and I use it for planning. It will tell you the Dewpoint Temperature spreads (the clouds are where they are close together) and where the freezing levels are in the clouds or below.
 
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Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

I've been a little confused about this myself so I'm interested to see what everyone has to say.


^^^^ Would you mind explaining why this air temperature makes a difference? Below freezing is below freezing, right? Why would that number in particular disallow icing?

I didn't really understand what Captain was saying. But at some point, if the air is cold enough, the thinking is that any visible moisture is already frozen such that it won't stick to your airframe.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

I didn't really understand what Captain was saying. But at some point, if the air is cold enough, the thinking is that any visible moisture is already frozen such that it won't stick to your airframe.

Yes. Structural icing is caused by supercooled liquid water droplets. If it's cold enough there won't be any.

But I think OP knew that already... "before it gets too cold."
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

I didn't really understand what Captain was saying. But at some point, if the air is cold enough, the thinking is that any visible moisture is already frozen such that it won't stick to your airframe.

Exactly. Although any visible moisture in that wide range may stick to the plane in the form of icing, there is no guarantee of that. The water droplets may already be frozen, or may not freeze fast enough on contact to become "icing". So icing forecast is more of a probability, although it tends to stay relatively constant within a certain local slab of air, which is why we ask for recent icing pireps (but be careful, since not all aircraft are alike in their affinity to icing).
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

So it it -40°F that is the magic number?

And I thought "supercooled water" was water below freezing and still in liquid form. So let's say the airplane gets wet with that supercooled water and in the next moment of it's flight, it is in an area of different temperature or pressure, what is to stop that water from freezing now?
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Read up on the icing accident of an EMB-120 in Monroe, Michigan in 1997. Icing can be very transient as this crew unfortunately found out.

I didn't say the "slab" couldn't be fairly deep, as it seems to have been in that specific accident. I have seen myself many slabs of more than a few thousand feet. I am not sure what you mean by "transient", however, and how it relates to what I said.
Here is the Monroe accident, FWIW.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

And I thought "supercooled water" was water below freezing and still in liquid form.

You are correct.

So let's say the airplane gets wet with that supercooled water and in the next moment of it's flight, it is in an area of different temperature or pressure, what is to stop that water from freezing now?

Nothing. Supercooled water will usually freeze when it hits the airframe.

And I don't know the magic number, but FAA Aviation Weather suggest it's -10ºC for stratiform clouds, and colder than that for cumuliform.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Not talking about the depth. Look at this summary (note this page requires flash). That will shed light on the transient nature of ice.

Yes, does seem a bit unusual. But as they say, weather is what you get, not necessarily what you expect. When it comes to possible icing conditions in non-FIKI aircraft, you need to stay on the ball, not make any assumptions and always keep your outs viable.
My own favorite tool for icing avoidance is skew-t's, and since starting to use them a couple of years ago they have served me well.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

There are a number of things you can do to better align what you get with what to expect. Skew-Ts can certainly help as long as you understand some important limitations and always, always understand the synoptic overview (the big picture). Most of the clues are there to explain what's going to happen with respect to ice. Just going right to the Skew-Ts without understanding that synoptic overview.

I assume you left out something at the end, but I fully agree that you need to start with the big picture, both in space and time, current and forecast, and gradually zoom in on the local skew-t's. That combination certainly seems to work for me, though I try not to get complacent, always expecting the unexpected.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Thanks for all your responses, very interesting.

I am aware that when temperatures are too low, icing will not occur anymore, for the reasons discussed above. If I remember the written exam correctly, the right answer was that icing is most likely to occur if visible moisture is present and if the temperatures are in the range of 0°C to -15°C. This is generally in accordance with this AOPA article, albeit it offers are more differentiated perspective: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/pdfs/SA11_Aircraft_Icing.pdf

I'm assuming that you are saying there's no AIRMET Zulu issued over the KIND region suggesting the AWC doesn't have a concern? If so, that's pretty common in these kinds of conditions. AIRMETs are only issued for widespread moderate icing. If the forecaster believes the icing will be mostly light, you won't see an AIRMET (although there could be pockets of moderate or even heavy ice in this region). These conditions can happen when the air is cold, but in this case, the temps are actually pretty near perfect for icing. However, the drop sizes are likely very small given the clouds are rooted in the boundary layer.

But looking at the sounding for this area a little more closely, the tops are not all that high (~4K) at 21Z. There's likely some icing potential around 3,000 ft or so, but there's also likely ice crystal growth at the expense of supercooled liquid water. So, I would keep an eye on pilot reports. But under IFR, I wouldn't hesitate to fly through this fairly thin cloud deck to get on top (or fly through it to get below).

KIND-Sounding.png


The supercooled liquid water content is pretty low at 3,000 ft showing the threat is pretty low. Not shown, at 4,000 ft, no SLW and only a little at 2,000 ft.

SLW-3K.png


Ahh, that's it - it did not occur to me to also look at the SkewT diagram. The SLW diagram looks interesting - is it somewhere publicly available? I am only aware of the Aviation Weather's icing forecast, in which SLD 'Supercooled Large Drops' are integrated.

This is what I looked at earlier today.

5000 ft, no ice the Indianapolis area:
attachment.php



7000 ft, also no ice, even though this is still lower than the tops in the area forecast:
attachment.php


After I read your post, I also looked at 3000 ft. And here it is - light ice:
attachment.php



Digging some more into this topic, I found this pretty interesting FAA video.
Icing for General Aviation Pilots: https://youtu.be/VKVeCukAO64
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

-40 C or F (it's the same) is a magic number. Water cannot exist in liquid form at that temperature and below. Since it can't be liquid it can't freeze onto an airplane and instead bounces off a plane in its solid state.

Temps above freezing (up to 5 deg although I hear the FAA has expanded that to 10 deg) can still freeze due to the cooling induced by local low pressures over the aircraft. Think airfoils and how they work.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

So it it -40°F that is the magic number?

And I thought "supercooled water" was water below freezing and still in liquid form. So let's say the airplane gets wet with that supercooled water and in the next moment of it's flight, it is in an area of different temperature or pressure, what is to stop that water from freezing now?

To freeze, ice has to crystalize. It starts with the formation of the first crystal. Some kind of deformity or irregularity really helps in the formation to give the process a start. (I recall in one of my chem class, to demonstrate this process, we created a liquid that was just ready to instantly crystalize, but the process had no place to start. Then, you would scratch the inside of the beaker, and boom!, the liquid instantly crystalized. I don't recall what that liquid was now, though.)

When the liquid water is suspended in the air, that can delay the formation of the first crystal long enough by depriving an easy place for the crystallization to occur such that the liquid can get below 32 F without freezing. But when the water hits your airframe, that causes it to instantly freeze by disturbing the super-cooled water molecules such that the crystallization can occur. Once it starts, it happens immediately.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Scott, very interesting, thank you for the insight.
Actually, the weather stuff in Foreflight is the main reason why I seriously consider using your app, once my current subscription has expired.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Yes, homogeneous freezing will occur around this temperature. With the exception of deep, moist convection, most clouds will be glaciated or nearly so by -25C unless there are other factors keeping the clouds very clean. Supercooled liquid water is extremely rare below -35C and still pretty rare below -30C.



Aircraft that spend most of their time at airspeeds below 200 knots won't have any issues with this. Moreover, that cooling due to lift over the airfoil doesn't lower the total air temperature which ultimately affects whether or not icing will accrete. In fact, due to kinetic heating (friction and adiabatic compression) you'll see a temperature rise (called the RAM air rise) of several degrees on the immediate leading edges where this is maximized. The primary issue are errors associated with immersion thermometers. They are notoriously bad depicting the static air temperature and can often be several degrees off (especially when they get wet or ice coated). So offering a cushion of temperatures a few degrees above freezing is wise.

RAM rise is why I split out TAT and SAT temps (post #2). By using +5 TAT I've accounted for it.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Nothing. Supercooled water will usually freeze when it hits the airframe.

And I don't know the magic number, but FAA Aviation Weather suggest it's -10ºC for stratiform clouds, and colder than that for cumuliform.

To freeze, ice has to crystalize. It starts with the formation of the first crystal. Some kind of deformity or irregularity really helps in the formation to give the process a start. (I recall in one of my chem class, to demonstrate this process, we created a liquid that was just ready to instantly crystalize, but the process had no place to start. Then, you would scratch the inside of the beaker, and boom!, the liquid instantly crystalized. I don't recall what that liquid was now, though.)

When the liquid water is suspended in the air, that can delay the formation of the first crystal long enough by depriving an easy place for the crystallization to occur such that the liquid can get below 32 F without freezing. But when the water hits your airframe, that causes it to instantly freeze by disturbing the super-cooled water molecules such that the crystallization can occur. Once it starts, it happens immediately.

Okay I get all of that, easy. However, I am still confused about what "Captain" said in post #2. Sounded like because the air was at -40°F, that visible moisture was safe to fly through. But If there is absolute certainty that this environment would cause icing, why did Captain mention the air temperature at all? It's like saying "I like my steaks medium rare but I'm a vegetarian."

Does that make sense? Is anyone else as turned around as I am?
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

At -40 Static Air Temp (SAT) it is impossible for water to exist in a liquid form. As Scott mentioned it's very unlikely at warmer temps like -30 C. But at -40 it's impossible. So, if the water can't be liquid and must be solid then it can't stick to an airplane. Therefore, at -40 and below you don't need to worry about ice on the plane.

Now, fuel tends to freeze around those temps so ice in the gas tanks could be a problem...
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Icing Conditions equal visible moisture AND an air temp between +5 C TAT and -40 SAT.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

At -40 Static Air Temp (SAT) it is impossible for water to exist in a liquid form. As Scott mentioned it's very unlikely at warmer temps like -30 C. But at -40 it's impossible. So, if the water can't be liquid and must be solid then it can't stick to an airplane. Therefore, at -40 and below you don't need to worry about ice on the plane.

Now, fuel tends to freeze around those temps so ice in the gas tanks could be a problem...

:yikes: Ohh! Okay, okay, okay, I got it now! Thank you! :)
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Canadian moisture is all frozen by around -20°C, or -4°F. Too bad American moisture takes so long to freeze.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Canadian moisture is all frozen by around -20°C, or -4°F. Too bad American moisture takes so long to freeze.

so....maybe your moisture is never super-cool? :goofy::rofl:
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

I've been a little confused about this myself so I'm interested to see what everyone has to say.


^^^^ Would you mind explaining why this air temperature makes a difference? Below freezing is below freezing, right? Why would that number in particular disallow icing?

At ultra cold temperatures there is not enough liquid moisture to adhere to surfaces. The lower the temperature, the less liquid the air can hold.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

So it it -40°F that is the magic number?

That's the magic number (-40C/F...they converge at that point) that we no longer need to turn on our anti-ice even in visible moisture.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

I've been a little confused about this myself so I'm interested to see what everyone has to say.


^^^^ Would you mind explaining why this air temperature makes a difference? Below freezing is below freezing, right? Why would that number in particular disallow icing?

All this discussion about supercooled water and the temperature of ice is bringing back horrible memories of my thermodynamics courses in college... Thanks

Seriously though, the freezing point as most people think of it changes quite a bit and its actually possible to freeze water at just about any temperature just like its possible to boil water at temperatures below 100C. There are also 15 known types of ice formed from water based on the molecular structure of the ice and the ice we refer to in aviation (clear, rime, mixed, frost and SLD) are all subsets of 1 type.

Realistically, nearly all naturally occurring ice on earth is of type Ih which is the type of ice we are most familiar with however Im sure some military pilots flying planes designed for ultra high altitudes (U2, SR71, etc) are also briefed on the occurrence of type Ic since they are at low enough pressure and temperature to potentially encounter it.

Without going too deep into the science, the formation of ice is a complex equation that deals with pressure, temperature, specific heat, energy/heat exchange, molecular bonds, time, uniformity, and other factors.

What we refer to as clear ice in aviation is really just Ice Ih that has time to layer and form uniform structure so that the ice is "clear." Rime ice is still Ice Ih but the structure is not uniform because a quantity of water will start to crystalize in a non-uniform fashion (that is ice crystals form in throughout the body of water) and when the entire column of water finally crystalizes, it forces those early crystals into the structure causing a misalignment of the structure that clouds the ice; the ice is not cloudy because of impurities but because it did not form uniformly over time.

As supercooled water shows, water put under pressure will freeze at significantly lower temperatures or will flash freeze once the pressure is released.

We salt roads before a storm because NaCl in solution with H2O becomes Na+, Cl- and H2O and the Sodium and Chlorine ions interfere with the formation of the structure required for ice to form there by lowering the freezing point. A 20% mixture of salt to water will lower the freezing point to -16C.

So in every day terms, with pure water, the answer is yes freezing is freezing but in reality its much more nuanced.

As others have pointed out, the primary reason you dont encounter ice at -40C is because at sealevel and -40C, air can only hold 0.1 grams of water for every 1000 grams of air.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Most triple point graphs are wrong. They don't show the two possible states of water at 0C to -40C. Both supercooled (liquid) water and solid water are possible from -40C to 0C, solid OR liquid is possible (supercooled water or liquid water).

It would be possible to have a correct triple point graph showing the area of two possible states. Scientists ought to correct those triple point graphs.

Water is complicated.
 
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Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Egg heads are great. They really are and the world needs them. But all pilots need to know is:

+5C TAT to -40 SAT with visible moisture equals icing conditions.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Egg heads are great. They really are and the world needs them. But all pilots need to know is:

+5C TAT to -40 SAT with visible moisture equals icing conditions.

Not really. In real life you operate based on probabilities, and flying requires a lot of nuanced interpretation of inputs.
In my experience (flying a typical non TC piston single), I have never seen icing buildup (that really sticks) above 0C (excluding freezing rain, don't remind me). Also, in my experience once you hit -15C or so, the probability for icing (in visible moisture) drops significantly. I can't recall the last time I saw icing build up at -20C or below.
So perhaps in lab conditions or some weird combination of factors you'll hit that broad envelope, but in real life the real envelope is much tighter, and can make the difference between flying or hibernating for the winter in non-FIKI aircraft. Of course, what you see is what you get, so assume icing could be there any time you fly through visible moisture in winter (in the northern parts of the country).
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Not really? You just proposed replacing mine with: "icing is visible moisture in winter".

Think I'll stick with mine.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

This is a Great conversation..very informative with helpful links to education.
Thanks to all who have participated!
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Not really? You just proposed replacing mine with: "icing is visible moisture in winter".

Think I'll stick with mine.

What you said was "+5C TAT to -40 SAT with visible moisture equals icing conditions."
What I said was "assume icing could be there any time you fly through visible moisture in winter"

The difference between those two words is what makes your non-FIKI aircraft a (mostly) practical transportation machine during winter in the northern US.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

But people need to make a go/no go decision. Your approach does nothing to address that. Mine is simple, factual and precise. The -40 doesn't even really apply to most here anyway so it can be further reduced to vis moisture below +5C should be suspect for icing. Done and done.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

But people need to make a go/no go decision. Your approach does nothing to address that. Mine is simple, factual and precise. The -40 doesn't even really apply to most here anyway so it can be further reduced to vis moisture below +5C should be suspect for icing. Done and done.

Ok, I'll accept your new word "suspect", except maybe tighten the +5 to around +1, if you have some experience in that aircraft and trust its OAT reading.
Of course, as I alluded to before, you can get icing at even warmer temps. My worst ever icing encounter was at perhaps +6C or so, flying IMC in relative warm air, suddenly encountering freezing rain falling from a colder layer above. Within seconds my plane turned into an icicle. Fortunately I was on the ball that day and did what it took to save my bacon.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Obviously every cloud doesn't produce ice. Best we pilots have is our knowledge of where ice can form. So we identify those conditions.

+5C to -40 with visible moisture equals icing conditions

Go with your winter time thing if you like. My opinion is that's silly especially with NY being 57 degrees lately.
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Well the point I was making was technically icing could occur at just about any temperature and similarly, just because it's 0C outside and there's visible moisture in the air, doesnt mean icing will occur.

Its like those first few flakes of snow that never stick... The surface needs to cool sufficiently to support ice.

In most planes, this doesnt take much on the surfaces as the specific heat of aluminum is 897 Joules/kg so it takes approximately of 0.00025 kilowatts of energy per hour to heat or cool 1kg of aluminum 1C in 1 hour.

(896 joules/kg * 1 watt-second/joule * 1 watt-minute/60 watt-second * 1 watt-hour/60 watt-minute * 1 kilowatt-hour/1000 watt-hour) = 0.00025kWhr

Compared to the 2000 to 4000 joules/kg required to do the same to water or ice at low temperatures.

A single kilo of 0C water is encountered in 0C air every 263 cubic meters (dry air at STP has a density of 1.27kg/cubic meter). 1 Kilo of 0C water can reduce a full kilo of aluminum by 2-4C before the water warms 1 degree. More when you consider wind also pulls heat away from a plane.

At an approximation of empty weight, a C172 at 500 kilos and ambient temperature of 16C on the ground need only come in contact with roughly 1000 kilos of 0C water in the air to be cooled sufficiently to set the stage for icing. The first 125 kilos of water warms to 8C as it cools the plane to equilibrium at 8C, the second does the same down to 4C. Below 4C the water takes less energy to warm so it takes 250kilos to cool down to 2C, 250kg down to 1C, 250kg down to 0.5C. for a total of 1000 kilos.

The cross-sectional area of a C172 is approximately 57.6 square meters (as calculated based on coefficients of drag and the NACA published coefficients for airfoil on which the C172 is based... I did not actually do this calculation but you can find it here: http://www.temporal.com.au/c172.pdf on page 8, for the egg-heads and those interested in this sort of thing, I recommend reading the full 20 pages as it shows the math behind the performance data for a C172 and if you know the math you can apply it to any plane) at that cross-sectional, it would take 4566m to encounter a sufficient volume of water equal to 1000 kilos (based on the earlier chart that says there is 3.8g of water per kilo of air at 0C at sea level) which computes to a distance of approximately 2.5 nautical miles.

*The above equation is still far from accurate and may in fact be wrong; it uses rough numbers and rough calculations of entropy to provide an approximation of otherwise much more complex and long forgotten equations from thermodynamics.*

Its not exact because Im not calculating the actual weight of the aluminum which is going to be below the empty weight, the actual cross section of the plane, how much air volume it actually flies through in that distance or how much water is in that volume of air, plus things like fuel or air pockets inside the wings and wind across the wings also adds/removes heat to/from the equation but its close enough to give an approximation. These uncalculated factors are also a portion of the reason why control surfaces and leading edges are among the first thing to ice over (they receive the most accumulation of water per second, have the most cooling due to wind and they have little direct exposure to warmer substances that can add heat to the equation).

A composite aircraft with surfaces more resistant to changes in surface temp or an aluminum aircraft with full tanks of fuel may be more resistant to icing initially and may be able to fly through an icing level with less risk if the pilot understands icing isn't immediate as the temperature of the wing and the water and the air must all be within a certain envelope... So you could theoretically take off at 16C, quickly climb to 8000ft and fly in icing conditions for 2.5 NM before ice begins to form but once the surfaces cool and the conditions are set for icing, the build up of ice and the impact it has on lift, stall speed and the control of the airplane (ice in general impacts control but ice can also freeze control surfaces in place) grows exponentially every second you remain in that condition.

Understanding the envelope at which the conditions of the plane, the air, the water and its associated temperatures add up to icing can make a significant determination to a go/no go decision or initial climb out decision if your planned altitude is FL100 (10,000ft because FL100 doesnt technically exist) and there is icing between FL070 (7,000 ft) and FL090 (9,000ft) and you have 16C temps on the ground, you can push through the icing layer before ice can accumulate if you dont dilly-dally in the climb both before, during and after the icing layer. Same for the descent... your plane will already be at temps in which ice can start to form but cold water will actually heat your wing initially so if you descend quickly through that icing layer you can get to the other side and while you may have some ice build up, the warmer temps on the other side should melt off the small accumulation quickly... Dickering around in that icing layer though will get you killed.

Of course this understanding does not make up for a good deicing system nor should it be relied on in a manner similar to relying on a deicing system and I certainly dont recommend you go out flying in ice to test my equations or because I suggested by my equations its doable... Ice should be avoided and for good reason but this understanding can make a difference to your considerations because sometimes you have to go through that icing layer, particularly when its unforecasted or unknown and quick decisive actions in that layer can mean the difference between no ice, a small amount of ice and enough ice to cause insufficient lift and CFIT or total loss of control and UnFIT.
 
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Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Well the point I was making was technically icing could occur at just about any temperature and similarly, just because it's 0C outside and there's visible moisture in the air, doesnt mean icing will occur.

Its like those first few flakes of snow that never stick... The surface needs to cool sufficiently to support ice.

In most planes, this doesnt take much on the surfaces as the specific heat of aluminum is 897 Joules/kg so it takes approximately of 0.00025 kilowatts of energy per hour to heat or cool 1kg of aluminum 1C in 1 hour.

(896 joules/kg * 1 watt-second/joule * 1 watt-minute/60 watt-second * 1 watt-hour/60 watt-minute * 1 kilowatt-hour/1000 watt-hour) = 0.00025kWhr

Compared to the 2000 to 4000 joules/kg required to do the same to water or ice at low temperatures.

A single kilo of 0C water is encountered in 0C air every 263 cubic meters (dry air at STP has a density of 1.27kg/cubic meter). 1 Kilo of 0C water can reduce a full kilo of aluminum by 2-4C before the water warms 1 degree. More when you consider wind also pulls heat away from a plane. At an approximation of empty weight, a C172 at 500 kilos and ambient temperature of 16C on the ground need only come in contact with 5-6 kilos of 0C water in the air to be cooled sufficiently to set the stage for icing which is a distance of approximately 1 statute mile. The first kilo of water warms to 8C as it cools the plane to equilibrium at 8C, the second does the same down to 4C

***Sorry my calculation above is incorrect as I forgot to factor the 500kilos vs 1kilo. Im recomputing now but before someone reads it and jumps on my math, just wanted to put this note***

Its not exact because Im not calculating out the actual cross section of the plane and how much air volume it actual flies through in that distance and things like fuel inside the wings also adds heat to the equation or the actual weight of the aluminum which is going to be below the empty weight but its close enough. It's also why control surfaces and leading edges are among the first thing to ice over (they receive the most accumulation of water per second, have the most cooling do to wind and they have little direct exposure to warmer substances that can add heat to the equation).

A composite aircraft with surfaces more resistant to changes in surface temp or an aluminum aircraft with full tanks of fuel may be more resistant to icing initially and may be able to fly through an icing level with less risk if the pilot understands icing isn't immediate the temperature of the wing and the water and the air must all be the same... but once the surfaces cool and the conditions are set for icing, the build up of ice and the impact it has on lift, stall speed and the control of the airplane (ice in general impacts control but ice can also freeze control surfaces in place) grows exponentially every second you remain in that condition.

Understanding the envelope at which the conditions of the plane, the air and its associated temperatures add up to icing can make a significant determination to a go/no go decision or initial climb out decision if your planned altitude is FL100 and there is icing between FL060 and FL080 and you have 12C temps on the ground, you can push through the icing layer before ice can accumulate if you dont dilly-dally in the climb both before, during and after the icing layer. Same for the descent... youre plane will already be at temps in which ice can start to form but cold water will actually heat your wing initially so if you descend quickly through that icing layer you can get to the other side and while you may have some ice build up, the warmer temps on the other side should melt off the small accumulation quickly...

Of course this understanding does not make up for a good deicing system nor should it be relied on like you can a deicing system but it can make a difference to your considerations because sometimes you have to go through that icing layer, particularly when its unforecasted or unknown and quick decisive actions in that layer can mean the difference between no ice and enough ice to cause lose of control and CFIT or UnFIT

While you are fixing your math, you might also want to make note that in America there is no such thing as "FL060" or "FL100".
 
Re: Visible moisture, below freezing temperatures, but no icing. How is this possible

Math fixed... or at least as fixed as it can be from what I remember of my thermodynamics course from over a decade ago.

And yes technically there is no FL080 or FL100. Im just using it as a substitute for 8,000 and 10,000ft. I could go back and fix it but since you've already quoted it and kept my errors in perpetuity, I'll just leave it be... Consider this my acknowledgement that FL080 and FL100 dont actually exist in the US airsystem but the notation is valid for illustration purposes. I also made other edits though so for anyone reading the quote and not the original post, go back and read it...

Important Safety Tip: Dont screw around with ice just because the math suggests its doable; my math is not intended as a substitute for deicing equipment or ice avoidance and I make no warranty to the accuracy of it. Ice is risky business and encounters with it should be taken seriously and action made decisively. Pushing the boundaries because the math says you can is like trying to land your 1960 Skyhawk on that <1500 runway on high density altitude day over a 50 foot obstacle and then if you're successful with that trying to take off with the same limitation all because the POH says it's possible... Few of us can fly to the perfection required to get the max performance indicated and fewer still 50-year old planes get the max performance indicated even when flown to perfection.
 
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