Viable airplane options for low time pilots?

ircphoenix said:
Yep. I'm that guy.
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I hate that I have to qualify this question before asking it... I plan to look at buying a plan in about a year, so this question is not trying to point fingers, attack the buyer, attack the rep of the A&P, or disparage any individual at all. It is in fact a real question that I hope the answer too might help prevent myself and others from running into the same type issue.

With that qualified, how was something like that missed in a pre-buy? Or if the damage occurred during normal use after a pre-buy do you have any indication on what occurred in the time you owned the plane that might have caused this damage (RPMs shot up on accident, hard landing, etc.)? Or am I way off base and this is just normal wear and tear that can occur with no indication before failure?
 
Blindrage said:
With that qualified, how was something like that missed in a pre-buy? Or if the damage occurred during normal use after a pre-buy do you have any indication on what occurred in the time you owned the plane that might have caused this damage (RPMs shot up on accident, hard landing, etc.)? Or am I way off base and this is just normal wear and tear that can occur with no indication before failure?
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Prebuy was done. Compressions checked. Cylinders scoped. Nothing unusual other than 1 cylinder being a little lower than others during compression check (HINT). Everything else checked good. Annual time... cylinder turns out to leak because of a broken helicoil on one of the upper plugs. No big deal. Mechanic pulls the cylinder so the engine shop can repair the helicoil on the bench. Engine shop looks at the cylinder and says "ruh roh" because they find a crack in the exhaust port. They pull the exhaust manifold on the other side and discover more cracks.

The A&P I had do the annual is the A&P from my airfield. He didn't know the specific airplane, the mechanic, or the owner. Completely independent. He also came highly recommended by someone that runs a fleet of aircraft through his shop. He did find a number of minor things like some tie rod ends etc. that needed replacing. He went over the plane for a few hours checking it out. I can't fault him. The cracks were behind the exhaust valves in the exhaust port. They were crappy repairs that the previous engine shop did that failed in the first 300 hours SMOH. But it was already my plane. Nothing I could do other than fly the BOHICA flag.
 
CC268 said:
...why do I need those things to get an instrument rating? Never said I was going to be flying instrument conditions on a regular basis...just would like to get my instrument rating...
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As James said, it makes the workload muuuuuch easier. And, you can take advantage of "Direct" routing versus remaining on the Airways.

Travelling between DFW and Houston, the clearance provided are ones that use VORS/Radials and distance to define the route. But more often than not, since I'm a /G, ATC amends the clearance with a "5-5-Whiskey-Bravo, fly direct [name_of_fix]", which takes me off the published route and cuts a corner or two. With the right GPS, your entire clearance can be entered. Providing you not only guidance (magenta line), but simplified ability to act on a Direct To clearance.

The right GPS's also have the approaches in the database, making cross checking that you're doing what you're supposed to do on that phase much simpler.

With the autopilot, it's a simple thing to engage and let it do the flying, following the heading bug (when ATC provides a vector), or the GPS. Some autopilots will provide the means to fly the entire approach as depicted on your GPS unit.

All of this helps to decrease the pilot's workload during busy phases of IFR flight and aid in staying ahead of the airplane.
 
ircphoenix said:
Prebuy was done. Compressions checked. Cylinders scoped. Nothing unusual other than 1 cylinder being a little lower than others during compression check (HINT). Everything else checked good. Annual time... cylinder turns out to leak because of a broken helicoil on one of the upper plugs. No big deal. Mechanic pulls the cylinder so the engine shop can repair the helicoil on the bench. Engine shop looks at the cylinder and says "ruh roh" because they find a crack in the exhaust port. They pull the exhaust manifold on the other side and discover more cracks.

The A&P I had do the annual is the A&P from my airfield. He didn't know the specific airplane, the mechanic, or the owner. Completely independent. He also came highly recommended by someone that runs a fleet of aircraft through his shop. He did find a number of minor things like some tie rod ends etc. that needed replacing. He went over the plane for a few hours checking it out. I can't fault him. The cracks were behind the exhaust valves in the exhaust port. They were crappy repairs that the previous engine shop did that failed in the first 300 hours SMOH. But it was already my plane. Nothing I could do other than fly the BOHICA flag.
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What gets me is that somthing like a Cylinder Jug, shouldn't have to cost that much.

You would really have to go out of your way to manufacture a jug that was so bad it would fail in 2000 hours.

The tech is there, just look at outboard engines these days.
 
Cost isn't just labor and materials to create.... lawyers and product liability insurance are in the money mix.
 
Early Bonanza, the best bang for your buck. Many nice planes available close to your budget. Don't let the E engine / electric prop / Dr. Killer wives tales dissuade you from considering this fine aircraft. I didn't and haven't looked back.
 
AggieMike88 said:
As James said, it makes the workload muuuuuch easier. And, you can take advantage of "Direct" routing versus remaining on the Airways.

Travelling between DFW and Houston, the clearance provided are ones that use VORS/Radials and distance to define the route. But more often than not, since I'm a /G, ATC amends the clearance with a "5-5-Whiskey-Bravo, fly direct [name_of_fix]", which takes me off the published route and cuts a corner or two. With the right GPS, your entire clearance can be entered. Providing you not only guidance (magenta line), but simplified ability to act on a Direct To clearance.

The right GPS's also have the approaches in the database, making cross checking that you're doing what you're supposed to do on that phase much simpler.

With the autopilot, it's a simple thing to engage and let it do the flying, following the heading bug (when ATC provides a vector), or the GPS. Some autopilots will provide the means to fly the entire approach as depicted on your GPS unit.

All of this helps to decrease the pilot's workload during busy phases of IFR flight and aid in staying ahead of the airplane.
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I have never thought about the Direct vs Airways thing...

So is it a waste for me to get my instrument rating in an airplane that doesn't have a GPS and autopilot?
 
CC268 said:
I have never thought about the Direct vs Airways thing...

So is it a waste for me to get my instrument rating in an airplane that doesn't have a GPS and autopilot?
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Not at all. Plenty of people do it. Once you get your ticket you probably want a least an IFR GPS. You can forego the A/P but you'll eventually want it for longer trips.
 
I figure I can always go learn how to use a GPS and A/P with an instructor after I get my Instrument Rating?

I am pretty familiar with the GNS 430 as that is what the 172 had that I got my PPL in...
 
jordane93 said:
Not at all. Plenty of people do it. Once you get your ticket you probably want a least an IFR GPS. You can forego the A/P but you'll eventually want it for longer trips.
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I can't believe what even a GNS 430 costs...crazy
 
My dad is really interested in that Mooney I posted earlier...
 
CC268 said:
So is it a waste for me to get my instrument rating in an airplane that doesn't have a GPS and autopilot?
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Not a waste at all. Much of what is Learned, practiced, and then done on the checkride doesn't require a GPS. So you can learn just fine with a /A or /U aircraft.

But the more you fly in IMC, the more you appreciate having a good GPS and AP
 
CC268 said:
I figure I can always go learn how to use a GPS and A/P with an instructor after I get my Instrument Rating?

I am pretty familiar with the GNS 430 as that is what the 172 had that I got my PPL in...
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Correct. Just because you pass the checkride doesn't mean you stop from learning more and getting better
 
AggieMike88 said:
As James said, it makes the workload muuuuuch easier. And, you can take advantage of "Direct" routing versus remaining on the Airways.

Travelling between DFW and Houston, the clearance provided are ones that use VORS/Radials and distance to define the route. But more often than not, since I'm a /G, ATC amends the clearance with a "5-5-Whiskey-Bravo, fly direct [name_of_fix]", which takes me off the published route and cuts a corner or two. With the right GPS, your entire clearance can be entered. Providing you not only guidance (magenta line), but simplified ability to act on a Direct To clearance.

The right GPS's also have the approaches in the database, making cross checking that you're doing what you're supposed to do on that phase much simpler.

With the autopilot, it's a simple thing to engage and let it do the flying, following the heading bug (when ATC provides a vector), or the GPS. Some autopilots will provide the means to fly the entire approach as depicted on your GPS unit.

All of this helps to decrease the pilot's workload during busy phases of IFR flight and aid in staying ahead of the airplane.
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I agree with all of this, except I've only had one airway route: Potomac canceled my direct route from furthest WV to Williamsburg JGG and replaced it with 4 VORs, finally letting me go direct the last ~40 nm due south to my destination.

Yesterday I filed and flew 434 nm, direct to a very low use grass field with four tie downs. Landings are so uncommon there that people came out of their house to watch me come over the pine trees around bedtime. Just me and my trusty 430W and a simple vacuum-powered single axis AP.
 
Hank you have a Mooney right? I have heard some people they are very small and cramped inside? I'm 6'0" 185lbs...
 
CC268 said:
Hank you have a Mooney right? I have heard some people they are very small and cramped inside? I'm 6'0" 185lbs...
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You need to go sit in one.... You'll do fine

They sit lower to the floor than pipers and cessnas. Think upper end sports car where your knees aren't a 90* angle, more like 20-30*. Shoulder room is an inch or two less and C&P, but still comfy.
 
Thing with the AP isn't so much for long legs, yeah that's nice, but when you're flying into a major airport and you get something like this.

Airplane123, Podunk Intl just changed runways, turn right heading 330, descend 5200, and we have a reroute for you, after 6000, head direct FIX, direct FIX2, STAR IAF and expect the RNAV RWY01.

Being able to have the airplane fly for you as you're turning knobs and, pulling plates, loading approaches, re briefing the approach, etc is a large factor as to why the big boys REQUIRE an AP if they don't have a SIC.

Again for LEARNING IFR I actually prefer no AP and no moving map GPS, that just helps get a solid foundation, but for real world IFR flying I like a few more tools in my belt.
 
James331 said:
Lol, don't mean to be too over the top, but have two full engine failures, and flying "budget" airplanes kinda looses its allure.
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So the engine failures were determined to be caused by something more money thrown at the engine would have fixed?
 
denverpilot said:
So the engine failures were determined to be caused by something more money thrown at the engine would have fixed?
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The fist one, a engine analyzer would have let me know it was comming and likley bought me enough time to land earlier, preventing some pucker factor and likley less damage to the engine.

Second, no, there would have been no practical way to prevent it.

Still, enough variables as it is, buying a 4 seat "project" is silly when for the same coin you could get a 2 seat gem.
 
James331 said:
Again for LEARNING IFR I actually prefer no AP and no moving map GPS, that just helps get a solid foundation, but for real world IFR flying I like a few more tools in my belt.
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:yeahthat:
 
CC268 said:
Hank you have a Mooney right? I have heard some people they are very small and cramped inside? I'm 6'0" 185lbs...
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I'm 6'5" and I find Mooney comfortable, although I only have 5 or 7 hours in M20E. The thing about them is, they aren't wide. So they are no good for lardbutt pilots. But if you're merely tall, you'll do fine. Note that the upper part of the door reaches even deeper than on Pipers. It helps to get in and out, but rain gets inside easier.
 
I disn't finish thread but saw this for sale on board at OSH. Seems to fit the OPS needs.

2epr86t.jpg
 
zaitcev said:
I'm 6'5" and I find Mooney comfortable, although I only have 5 or 7 hours in M20E. The thing about them is, they aren't wide. So they are no good for lardbutt pilots. But if you're merely tall, you'll do fine. Note that the upper part of the door reaches even deeper than on Pipers. It helps to get in and out, but rain gets inside easier.
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Have you flown with a buddy your size yet? If you do, you'll find having them keep their seat all the way back while yours is forward will prevent shoulders from touching.
 
ChemGuy said:
I disn't finish thread but saw this for sale on board at OSH. Seems to fit the OPS needs.

2epr86t.jpg
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Yep, bulletin boards across America have the same type of listings.

Offer the guy $35k, and you will likely fly away in a new plane before the weekend.
 
CC268 said:
Hank you have a Mooney right? I have heard some people they are very small and cramped inside? I'm 6'0" 185lbs...
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Yes, I have an M20-C, the infamous short body. I'm 5-11 pushing 200 lbs. My Mooney instructor was about the same height but larger. Not a problem! I'll add some photos next week, four guys, for a trip ~1-1/2 each way.

Lots of pleasure the last 650-700 hours or so, very few issues other than two mechanical glitches.
 
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