VFR stuck on top, a confession

[Unregistered]

PP-ASEL, no instrument ticket.

Went and flew from an airport with clear skies to one with a roughly 3000 ceiling. Nearing the clouds I tried getting under but the turb was rough. Decided to climb over the scattered layer and keep going (still 2 hours from destination). Scattered became broken and finally overcast. Listening to ASOS/AWOS at destination the ceiling remained 3000.

I had flight following, requested a radar descent to get down through the clouds. Acted like I knew what I was doing, did not tell controllers I was non-instrument rated (plane is equipped /A). Carb heat and pitot heat on, OAT was above freezing.

Entered clouds and it was more disorienting than under the hood. Attitude Indicator showed me in a left bank though my body strongly disgreed. Obeyed the AI and kept level. I can now see how non-IR pilots end up rolling over in IMC. Came out of clouds just fine and promptly cancelled IFR. Proceded VFR to land at destination.

Lesson reaffirmed, obey the attitude indicator. Your body lies to you.

 

[ajstoner21]

Glad you had a safe outcome.

The real lesson should be to respect the FARs.... and stay out of clouds till you get your instrument rating.

 

[Ted]

The real lesson should be to respect the FARs.... and stay out of clouds till you get your instrument rating.

+1

Lesson #2: Be very careful with VFR on top if you're not in a position to fly through the clouds.

 

[gprellwitz]

Four words: Get An Instrument Rating. It makes flying so much easier. We just finished 20 hours on the Hobbes in the past week, and spent less than 30 minutes in IMC. No approaches (except one at night at an unfamiliar airport). Didn't need to worry about airspace, MOAs, TFRs, ceilings, or border crossings. Needed to watch for only ice (there was none), thunderstorms (there were none), and heavy winds (that we got, on the last leg). Alright, I may be oversimplifying a bit, but not much at all!

 

[GMascelli]

PP-ASEL, no instrument ticket.

Went and flew from an airport with clear skies to one with a roughly 3000 ceiling. Nearing the clouds I tried getting under but the turb was rough. Decided to climb over the scattered layer and keep going (still 2 hours from destination). Scattered became broken and finally overcast. Listening to ASOS/AWOS at destination the ceiling remained 3000.

I had flight following, requested a radar descent to get down through the clouds. Acted like I knew what I was doing, did not tell controllers I was non-instrument rated (plane is equipped /A). Carb heat and pitot heat on, OAT was above freezing.

Entered clouds and it was more disorienting than under the hood. Attitude Indicator showed me in a left bank though my body strongly disgreed. Obeyed the AI and kept level. I can now see how non-IR pilots end up rolling over in IMC. Came out of clouds just fine and promptly cancelled IFR. Proceded VFR to land at destination.

Lesson reaffirmed, obey the attitude indicator. Your body lies to you.

Agree with Andrew on this "The real lesson should be to respect the FARs.... and stay out of clouds till you get your instrument rating." I hope you at least consider getting started with the IR. Please don't let this one time of, hey I made it through ok, make you try it again.

I just went a round or two with a guy that did almost the same thing. Only difference was he didn't talk to anyone descending through the 800-1000 foot layer. He said "I hate talking to people they are always trying to get you in trouble".

I told him it's people like him that do Dumb a$$ stunts like that, that get people like me killed following the rules. He didn't asppreciate it much and walked off.....oh well, I'll read about him soon enough.

What really surprised me is that he told me what he did after preaching about GA getting a bad rap with recent local accidents and that he had lost a friend in a mid air just this year in NJ. You have to wonder, just because the lights are on is there anybody really home in that brain.

 

[Geico266]

Been there done that.

No shame in letting ATC you are caught on top. They call it "Inadvertant IFR" and ATC can deal with it if you let them know the situation. Don't lie to them, that gives them the wrong information to help you. You might have a NASA report to fill out, but getting through the clouds safely is priority one.

Remember the 3 C's = Confess, Comply, Conserve.

And finally, get XM Weather.

 

[poadeleted20]

The real lesson should be to respect the FARs.... and stay out of clouds till you get your instrument rating.

I would rather say that the lesson should be to think ahead and try to not put yourself in a position where the only way out is to break the rules. Use the available weather forecasts and reports so you avoid being on top of a solid layer at your destination, and if it starts to close up underneath you, get down before it solidifies (even if that does mean a rough ride underneath).

As an additional comment, if you are unforeseeably trapped in such a situation, be honest with the controller and don't tell them you're instrument rated when you're not. 'Fess up and tell them the truth so they can give you the additional assistance you'll probably need in that situation. If you do that, and declare an emergency so as to take advantage of the emergency provision of 91.3(b), the FSDO will not proceed with a certificate action. Lie to the controller, and you've set in motion a series of events which can end in a suspension or revocation.

Finally, I hope the OP is now motivated to train for the IR.

 

[dmccormack]

And finally, get XM Weather.

XM won't prevent inadvertent IMC encounters.

 

[dell30rb]

OP, how good was your weather briefing?

I flew over a solid overcast last week. It broke up as expected and i landed with enough fuel to fly all the way to florida if i needed to.

I had a good briefing there. Another time i got a briefing the night before a flight (things changed) and i wound up having to 180, duck under and land at the nearest airport. Lesson learned!


My experience has definitely inspired me to pursue the instrument rating, hope yours does too

 

[gismo]

I also made a descent through a relatively thin cloud deck once when I was still a sub 100 hr VFR pilot. I had climbed through a scattered layer to the smoother air on top while traveling from Minneapolis to Cedar Rapids. The forecast I'd received in my preflight briefing indicated similar conditions most of the way and clear skies at my destination. As I flew along the clouds got closer together and eventually became a solid undercast. I nervously continued for about 15 minutes (this was in a 152 so that didn't account for many miles) and called FSS to inquire into the destination weather. They reported that it was still clear and the overcast was moving slowly south east but not expected to reach Cedar Rapids until an hour or two beyond my ETA. Fifteen sweaty minutes later I was close to Waterloo and explained my situation to the approach controller there. He rechecked the weather further ahead (finding pretty much what I already knew about that) and offered to get me below the clouds. I followed the procedure I'd been taught (hands off the wheel, use rudder to keep the turn needle straight up, using power to control the descent) and came out beneath the cloud layer a few minutes later relatively wings level. I thanked the controller and continued on in the bumpy air below the clouds for another 30 miles before the overcast abruptly ended and landed under the promised clear skies. That was the last time I continued a flight over a layer I couldn't see through before becoming instrument rated several years later. BTW, I never heard from anyone at the FAA about the incident and I seriously doubt that the controller reported anything to anyone beyond telling a fellow controller how he helped some idiot get safely below the clouds.

 

[flyingron]

XM won't prevent inadvertent IMC encounters.

It won't be certain to prevent such things but it certainly goes a long way to help. If NEXRAD or the METARs up ahead start showing previously unforcast IFR conditions, it gives you time to make other options earlier.

Just a few weeks ago I was heading down to my place in NC. Forecasts were for VFR conditions but as we were getting down to Southern Virginia it became clear ground fog was rolling in at the destinations and even an IFR arrival there was in doubt. We surveyed the airports we could get to and diverted to Danville for the night without incident. Sure a call to Flight Service or even ATC could have helped out in a pinch, the weather datalink made the process a lot more efficient.

 

[Skylane81E]

I also made a descent through a relatively thin cloud deck once when I was still a sub 100 hr VFR pilot.

I nearly had to once too, the lady at the FSS told me that the coulds lee of the ozarcks were only a few miles down wind and forcast to burn off before I even got there.

I was VFR on top all the way to the Ohio Indiana border

 

[steingar]

When the holes start disappearing, time to check your destination. XM. flightwatch, ASOS, whatever you can use. But that is your decision point. If you don't KNOW your destination is clear, time to go back, find a hole, and get under.

 

[Skylane81E]

When the holes start disappearing, time to check your destination. XM. flightwatch, ASOS, whatever you can use. But that is your decision point. If you don't KNOW your destination is clear, time to go back, find a hole, and get under.

That's what we ended up doing, found a hole with an airport in it in KY, Filled to the top with gas and started making phone calls. All was clear at home and while the overcast was too low to scud run under it was high enough that in an emergency a decent on the TC could be made and there would be time to pick a landing point after breaking out under the deck.

20NM from the home drome the clouds just stopped.

 

[Jaybird180]

I had opportunity to do VFR on top with precious cargo aboard (or is that over the top - I forget), but I decided that it wasn't worth the "what ifs" I was already spinning in my mind and went below. Continued on to destination and it cleared up enroute, so I climbed back to altitude to take advantage of tailwinds. Was clear all the way to destination.

I'm not knocking on any of you who go on top, but I do not regret my decision.

 

[Skylane81E]

I had opportunity to do VFR on top with precious cargo aboard (or is that over the top - I forget), but I decided that it wasn't worth the "what ifs" I was already spinning in my mind and went below. Continued on to destination and it cleared up enroute, so I climbed back to altitude to take advantage of tailwinds. Was clear all the way to destination.

I'm not knocking on any of you who go on top, but I do not regret my decision.

I'd have gone below had the height of the overcast made it prudent.

Now when the clouds first started for me they butt right up against cumulo-granite so that would have been a poor choice.

 

[gismo]

When the holes start disappearing, time to check your destination. XM. flightwatch, ASOS, whatever you can use. But that is your decision point. If you don't KNOW your destination is clear, time to go back, find a hole, and get under.

Even if you have a recent report of clear skies at your destination, that's no guarantee it will be like that when you get there.

 

[jesse]

Even if you have a recent report of clear skies at your destination, that's no guarantee it will be like that when you get there.

+1. I teach my students not to fly over an overcast layer period. There is no guarantee you'll find a way back down. If you want to fly over cloud layers get an instrument rating. It's that simple.

 

[jesse]

Lesson reaffirmed, obey the attitude indicator. Your body lies to you.

..and sometimes the attitude indicator lies to you. This is why instrument training takes 40 hours.

 

[steingar]

Even if you have a recent report of clear skies at your destination, that's no guarantee it will be like that when you get there.

There is no guarantee of anything in life. However, mountains around here make overcast. I've flow to and from several destinations on top of the overcasts that lurk over rocks. Never stopped me from getting frequent updates, but worked out fine. The only reason I ever use VFR on top. Probably wouldn't bother with it otherwise.

 

[jesse]

The only reason I ever use VFR on top.

In order to operate as "vfr on top" you're going to need an instrument rating and an appropriate clearance.

Seriously. It's not worth it. If you want to have utility and you want to mess around the clouds get an instrument rating. It's not that difficult to obtain.

 

[gismo]

..and sometimes the attitude indicator lies to you. This is why instrument training takes 40 hours.

I disagree somewhat. I suspect that any competent VFR pilot could be trained in a few hours to hold a heading while descending through a few thousand feet of clouds safely even in the event of an instrument failure. As you well know, the instrument rating includes a lot more than that. IMO the real reason VFR only pilots (as well as IR pilots long beyond currency) don't fare so well in clouds is that they don't practice those skills enough to be able to put them to use if and when the need arises.

OTOH, I do (obviously) agree that whether or not a VFR rated pilot feels competent to fly through clouds they should never put themselves into the position of needing to do so. My advice for flying on top of clouds is to never go beyond visual contact with a hole about twice as big as you need to get down (those holes often contract when you fly into them).

 

[poadeleted20]

In order to operate as "vfr on top" you're going to need an instrument rating and an appropriate clearance.

For those confused, "VFR on top" is an IFR operation where you fly at VFR altitudes but remain on your IFR route as cleared by ATC and stay in communication with ATC.

VFR-ON-TOP- ATC authorization for an IFR aircraft to operate in VFR conditions at any appropriate VFR altitude (as specified in 14 CFR and as restricted by ATC). A pilot receiving this authorization must comply with the VFR visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR altitudes specified in 14 CFR Part 91. The use of this term does not relieve controllers of their responsibility to separate aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace or TRSAs as required by FAAO JO 7110.65.

See AIM Section 5-5-13 for more.

"VFR over the top" is a VFR operation where you are above a deck maintaining standard 91.155 cloud clearances and don't need to adhere to any route, get any clearance or to talk to anyone as long as you don't enter B/C/D airspace. "VFR over the top" is prohibited by regulation for Student, Sport, and Recreational Pilots who must all maintain visual reference to the ground. "VFR over the top" is essentially how the OP was operating until descending to less than 1000 above the undercast.

 

[jesse]

I disagree somewhat. I suspect that any competent VFR pilot could be trained in a few hours to hold a heading while descending through a few thousand feet of clouds safely even in the event of an instrument failure. As you well know, the instrument rating includes a lot more than that. IMO the real reason VFR only pilots (as well as IR pilots long beyond currency) don't fare so well in clouds is that they don't practice those skills enough to be able to put them to use if and when the need arises.

OTOH, I do (obviously) agree that whether or not a VFR rated pilot feels competent to fly through clouds they should never put themselves into the position of needing to do so. My advice for flying on top of clouds is to never go beyond visual contact with a hole about twice as big as you need to get down (those holes often contract when you fly into them).

I wasn't saying that learning to descend through clouds takes 40 hours. I was saying that instrument training does. And that it's not always as simple as just blindly staring at the attitude indicator.

Plus there is the chance that you might not be able to just descend easily out the bottom. If the bases are extremely low then you're up **** creek. Which is why it's a very bad idea.

 

[poadeleted20]

I disagree somewhat. I suspect that any competent VFR pilot could be trained in a few hours to hold a heading while descending through a few thousand feet of clouds safely even in the event of an instrument failure.

I think Jesse and Lance each have a point. We train people to meet the minimum PP-Airplane standard of being able to keep the plane upright, make turns to headings, and climbs/descents to altitudes in as little as three hours of instrument time. However, we don't get into partial panel problems at that level, and the standards for accuracy are a lot looser than IR -- essentially, just enough to extract yourself from an inadvertant entry into actual instrument conditions or the sort of situation in which the OP found him/herself, and then only with the extra level of attention from ATC needed to deal with a pilot who cannot fly to the level of accuracy needed for IFR operations or follow the procedures an IR pilot knows how to execute.

IMO the real reason VFR only pilots (as well as IR pilots long beyond currency) don't fare so well in clouds is that they don't practice those skills enough to be able to put them to use if and when the need arises.

I think Lance has a good point there, and that's why I include some basic hoodwork (about the same as the PP-Airplane PTS requires -- Four Fundamentals and, if they have one, VOR or GPS track-to-station) on flight reviews for non-IR pilots even though the regs don't require it.

 

[Jay Honeck]

XM won't prevent inadvertent IMC encounters.

True, but it gives you a situational awareness like none other. This information allows you to make an intelligent decision WRT going over the top of an overcast area.

Before XM, I NEVER went VFR on top. After XM, it became relatively routine to go over a "stripe" of more solid overcast, knowing that it broke up just beyond visual range.

Of course, now it's a non-issue, as it's always clear VFR in South Texas... Except when it's a torrential, tropical storm, of course.

 

[TripleZ]

I wasn't saying that learning to descend through clouds takes 40 hours. I was saying that instrument training does. And that it's not always as simple as just blindly staring at the attitude indicator.

Plus there is the chance that you might not be able to just descend easily out the bottom. If the bases are extremely low then you're up **** creek. Which is why it's a very bad idea.

And as you previously stated, sometimes the attitude indicator lies. I've never found flying with the hood on hard........but a random instrument failure would change that. I don't like playing with clouds, other than dodging scattered ones.

Ive descended through a "cloud" layer, but as right seat and not PIC. We got caught up high, and the hole we were aiming for, was more of a low visibility haze. We were pretty sure we had 3 miles vis, but it was at the absolute minimum. Nerve racking, even with two pilots cross checking the instruments and checking for traffic.

Im saving up now to start my IR next spring. Don't think Ill use it, but I want to at least learn.

 

[poadeleted20]

And as you previously stated, sometimes the attitude indicator lies. I've never found flying with the hood on hard........but a random instrument failure would change that. I don't like playing with clouds, other than dodging scattered ones.

I think the FAA feels that the likelihood of an AI or vacuum failure on the one day when the weather goes unpredictedly sour is small enough not to worry about giving partial panel training as part of initial PP-Airplane. OTOH, if you do fly IFR routinely, the odds of having it happen in the goo in which you intentionally fly reguarly go way up.

Im saving up now to start my IR next spring. Don't think Ill use it, but I want to at least learn.

Good for you! Anything you do to improve your knowledge and skill helps.

 

[jesse]

I think the FAA feels that the likelihood of an AI or vacuum failure on the one day when the weather goes unpredictedly sour is small enough not to worry about giving partial panel training as part of initial PP-Airplane. OTOH, if you do fly IFR routinely, the odds of having it happen in the goo in which you intentionally fly reguarly go way up.

I agree - but I also feel like the amount taught as per the PTS is barely enough to save a private pilot. Sadly it's just enough to make the high-confidence people think they can get away with it. Depending on the weather - they're going to be up **** creek without a paddle. You can't always just descend out the bottom.

If you've let yourself get stuck on top as a VFR pilot you need to recognize how serious that situation could be - and make sure you change your decision process to never let that happen again.

 

[Jaybird180]

Seriously. It's not worth it. If you want to have utility and you want to mess around the clouds get an instrument rating. It's not that difficult to obtain.

I've heard otherwise, but I'll let you know after awhile.

 

[jesse]

I've heard otherwise, but I'll let you know after awhile.

If you can get a private - you can get an instrument, that is if you really want it.

 

[TMetzinger]

+1. I teach my students not to fly over an overcast layer period. There is no guarantee you'll find a way back down. If you want to fly over cloud layers get an instrument rating. It's that simple.

Or have enough fuel to get to cloud-free space, that you KNOW exists.

 

[Jaybird180]

If you can get a private - you can get an instrument, that is if you really want it.

Just as there are peple that should NEVER be a pilot, are you suggesting that anyone who can get PPL has the innate ability to get IR?

 

[jesse]

Or have enough fuel to get to cloud-free space, that you KNOW exists.

You don't really know if it exists unless you're already there. Things change. Just a matter of deciding how much risk you're willing to take.

Just as there are peple that should NEVER be a pilot, are you suggesting that anyone who can get PPL has the innate ability to get IR?

There are exceptions to every rule - so I'm not about to say that it's 100%. But for the most part there is no reason most private pilot's couldn't get an instrument rating if they really wanted it.

That doesn't change my statement that if you want to go flying around cloud layers you should have an instrument rating. If you aren't able to get one - or if you don't want to - you shouldn't be flying vfr over the top. That's my opinion..and I'm sticking to it

 

[flyingriki]

Or have enough fuel to get to cloud-free space, that you KNOW exists.

One of the huge advantages of XM Weather. I found myself on top of a gradually rising layer of unforecast and very uncomfortable clouds and smoke from fires coming home from Seattle to CA one late afternoon. Kept climbing until I was at 17,500 and the sun was setting. The only reason I kept going was plenty of fuel and the metar said Redding was crystal clear - it was. Could have found out by radio but a lot quicker to scroll around at different places to see the sky conditions. Still not an experience I wish to repeat.

 

[Jaybird180]

Jesse- I guess you're not in the camp that subscribes to the idea that a Private Pilot certificate is an end unto itself as the flight schools' and GA marketing to non-pilots wants to project...and you're a CFI! I thought you were supposed to tow the party line?!? (LOL)

 

[Flying h4x0r]

I just went a round or two with a guy that did almost the same thing. Only difference was he didn't talk to anyone descending through the 800-1000 foot layer. He said "I hate talking to people they are always trying to get you in trouble".

What an idiot. That really scares me. Does he not understand that there could be other planes in IMC that he'd not be able to see and avoid?

If I was on an IFR flight plan going through the same cloud, would the controller see him and vector me around him?

 

[dmspilot]

Went and flew from an airport with clear skies to one with a roughly 3000 ceiling. Nearing the clouds I tried getting under but the turb was rough. Decided to climb over the scattered layer and keep going (still 2 hours from destination). Scattered became broken and finally overcast. Listening to ASOS/AWOS at destination the ceiling remained 3000.
...
Lesson reaffirmed, obey the attitude indicator. Your body lies to you.

If the only thing you learned was to obey the attitude indicator, then you did not learn your lesson.

It sounds like you might have known that your destination had a 3,000 foot ceiling before you took off. If this is true, then climbing over the cloud layer was a very poor decision. What were the weather reports and forecasts for the destination that you should have received during preflight planning?

Before going over the top, you should have a high degree of confidence (with evidence to back up that confidence) that it is substantially better at the destination so that you can get down again. Don't depend on luck or hope that it will get better. Use your preflight planning as well as updates from ASOS stations and FSS/Flight Watch to stay informed.

---

I only recently got my instrument, but I have flown VFR over a broken to overcast layer at least once. I followed the procedure I described and was sure it would be CAVU at the destination, and it was. Plus it was clear about 20-30 miles to one side of my route.

The ironic thing is that the attitude indicator very suddenly failed while over the top. Luckily, it was soon clear again and it was never needed.

 

[JoeSelch]

Jesse- I guess you're not in the camp that subscribes to the idea that a Private Pilot certificate is an end unto itself as the flight schools' and GA marketing to non-pilots wants to project...and you're a CFI! I thought you were supposed to tow the party line?!? (LOL)

Heh. I didn't get that at ALL from his statements.

 

[airguy]

What an idiot. That really scares me. Does he not understand that there could be other planes in IMC that he'd not be able to see and avoid?

He's operating on the "big sky theory" - it's a big sky with a few small airplanes, I'm probably not going to hit one. Not always successful.

If I was on an IFR flight plan going through the same cloud, would the controller see him and vector me around him?

Controllers will vector you away from other traffic if handling you as an IFR flight, especially if they are not talking to the other traffic. This assumes of course the controller can see the other airplane - if he has his transponder off (since he doesn't want to talk to anyone, this becomes more logical and likely) then the controller may or may not have a primary return to go by - depends on the aircraft, altitude, and terrain.