VFR Pilots on Flight Following, for the Love of God...

I also alert the FF controller when changing altitude and what altitude I intend to go to. Frequently it seems the reaction is “whatever just maintain VFR” - not literally of course. So do some controllers appreciate this information or do all of the controllers just want me to STFU as indicated above?
Well if you are in the Center environment, "maintain VFR" is the correct phraseology. We do not assign altitude changes to VFR aircraft, just like you wont hear the words "cleared to" if you are VFR. Those are for IFR only. All the "Maintain VFR" mean is, "Cool, just dont go through the clouds". It's not meant to be rude.
 
Absent any altitude restrictions issued, the AIM specifically states that while on FF pilots "Should" (not must) advise (not request) any changes in altitude. If your call to ATC requires a response of anything other than a "Thank You" from ATC you have made a request, not advised.

"NorCal, Slykane 12345, VFR Climb to 6,500"

You should get a "Roger", "Thanks", or "Altitude at your discretion" in response.

If controller gets pizzy...it is on them. Now if you request 6,500 while VFR, that is where I hear controllers get irritated all the time.



Al depends on where you fly. My typical XC trips from Northern CA to Southern CA could involve 2 Centers and/or 6 Different Tracons depending on which route and altitudes I choose and not uncommon to get a request of route two times during the flight with various controllers.

I used to fly from furthest WV to central and eastern NC, and counted a dozen different frequencies going each way, starting and ending in different sides of the Appalachians. Never once asked for my route . . . Even flying 1300+nm each way to Yellowstone was never asked for routing, and was on FF the whole way except for a short stretch on WY when I dropped off radar at 8500.

For you who suggest filing IFR, that's just not an option for all pilots, such as my Yellowstone trip almost 2 years before getting rated. Now, when I go back to visit, it's 390nm and I usually file IFR only if there are possible weather or airspace issues, or if I'm traveling after dark. VFR with FF is just so much more relaxed, and I can deviate to my heart's desire to see things or avoid stuff out front.

P.S.--on long flights, when setting up FF I have been asked for my on course heading. Can't blame Delta controllers in WV for not knowing the course to Savannah, GA . . . . But then again, that was my first IFR trip, in solid VMC all the way down that evening, landing well before dark.
 
Absent any altitude restrictions issued, the AIM specifically states that while on FF pilots "Should" (not must) advise (not request) any changes in altitude. If your call to ATC requires a response of anything other than a "Thank You" from ATC you have made a request, not advised.

"NorCal, Slykane 12345, VFR Climb to 6,500"

You should get a "Roger", "Thanks", or "Altitude at your discretion" in response.

If controller gets pizzy...it is on them. Now if you request 6,500 while VFR, that is where I hear controllers get irritated all the time.
A couple of weeks ago, in response to, "Regional Approach, Cessna 1234 descending to 2,500" (I was approaching the B and wasn't cleared in), I got, "Who is descending to 2,500?" "Cessna 1234 descending to 2,500." "Cessna 34, I terminated RADAR services a few minutes ago, squawk VFR."

That might have been the moment he realized that he hadn't terminated RADAR services, and also hadn't called traffic for the 737 at less than one mile and 500'.

Every center and approach controller I've heard from, when asked, says that they want us to use FF as much as possible. But that is not always the impression I get when I actually use it.
 
Well if you are in the Center environment, "maintain VFR" is the correct phraseology. We do not assign altitude changes to VFR aircraft, just like you wont hear the words "cleared to" if you are VFR. Those are for IFR only. All the "Maintain VFR" mean is, "Cool, just dont go through the clouds". It's not meant to be rude.

So, the VFR guys incorrectly requesting altitude changes during FF are gently admonished, “Altitude your discretion.” But sometimes, when I’m merely advising an altitude change, “NORCAL Approach, Cardinal 7SD beginning our descent for McClellan” I’ll get the same discretion admonishment, which I take to be ATC misspeak... hey, I’m just letting you know, like the AIM says.

This is particularly incongruous since Norcal frequently issues a restriction, due to Sac Exec traffic, “Maintain at or above 2,500 until advised.”

I was returning from Truckee to OAK Friday, and each Norcal sector requested at checkin, “Advise any altitude changes.” Guess they didn’t want to be surprised by my beginning descent from 10,500 into SMF departures...

Paul
 
So, the VFR guys incorrectly requesting altitude changes during FF are gently admonished, “Altitude your discretion.” But sometimes, when I’m merely advising an altitude change, “NORCAL Approach, Cardinal 7SD beginning our descent for McClellan” I’ll get the same discretion admonishment, which I take to be ATC misspeak... hey, I’m just letting you know, like the AIM says.

This is particularly incongruous since Norcal frequently issues a restriction, due to Sac Exec traffic, “Maintain at or above 2,500 until advised.”

I was returning from Truckee to OAK Friday, and each Norcal sector requested at checkin, “Advise any altitude changes.” Guess they didn’t want to be surprised by my beginning descent from 10,500 into SMF departures...

Paul
I also say when I'm changing altitudes too. Whether it annoys the controller or not doesn't bother me. In my airspace, you could be flying west at 8500 but if you drop down to 6500 for whatever reason, It puts you into an approach control. To the pilot, this does not matter because you have done nothing wrong. For the controller, you might be explaining why another aircraft is squawking a code in somebody else's airspace. The approach control might think it's an IFR aircraft that has deviated from their altitude. So, I still bug controllers with VFR altitude changes.
 
I also say when I'm changing altitudes too. Whether it annoys the controller or not doesn't bother me. In my airspace, you could be flying west at 8500 but if you drop down to 6500 for whatever reason, It puts you into an approach control. To the pilot, this does not matter because you have done nothing wrong. For the controller, you might be explaining why another aircraft is squawking a code in somebody else's airspace. The approach control might think it's an IFR aircraft that has deviated from their altitude. So, I still bug controllers with VFR altitude changes.

I can't imagine a controller not wanting to know about altitude changes during VFR FF, which is at the pilot's discretion, but nice to know from a controller standpoint. When I controlled I certainly did.
 
So what's "official" phraseology? I have used something like "advising altitude change to 6500, looking for better winds".
 
So what's "official" phraseology? I have used something like "advising altitude change to 6500, looking for better winds".

Just tell the controller what you're doing, "approach climbing to (alt), descending to (alt), beginning descent", etc. No specific phraseology, just advise the controller. If they act annoyed tough.
 
So what's "official" phraseology? I have used something like "advising altitude change to 6500, looking for better winds".

"KC Center, Comanche 8-9Papa leaving 8500 for 6500". Short and sweet. They might come back and tell you about heads up traffic, or that they won't have radio coverage/radar coverage which would let you reevaluate the situation. To be honest, all you WANT to hear is "maintain VFR", just means nobody is depicted on the radar scope to hit and that you aren't descending into an airspace you shouldn't be in!
 
I can't imagine a controller not wanting to know about altitude changes during VFR FF, which is at the pilot's discretion, but nice to know from a controller standpoint. When I controlled I certainly did.

Agreed. Flying VFR FF around the L.A. basin, the controllers are always very glad to know when you're climbing or descending!! When I'm going from Cable to, say, Camarillo, there are tons of jets popping over the mountains and flying into LAX, Burbank and Van Nuys. Quite the beehive there.
 
So, the VFR guys incorrectly requesting altitude changes during FF are gently admonished, “Altitude your discretion.” But sometimes, when I’m merely advising an altitude change, “NORCAL Approach, Cardinal 7SD beginning our descent for McClellan” I’ll get the same discretion admonishment, which I take to be ATC misspeak... hey, I’m just letting you know, like the AIM says.

This is particularly incongruous since Norcal frequently issues a restriction, due to Sac Exec traffic, “Maintain at or above 2,500 until advised.”

I was returning from Truckee to OAK Friday, and each Norcal sector requested at checkin, “Advise any altitude changes.” Guess they didn’t want to be surprised by my beginning descent from 10,500 into SMF departures...

Paul

I'm not sure that "altitude your discretion" is an admonishment. It probably doesn't matter anyway, now that VFR altitude change reports are recommended in the AIM.
 
On one occasion I descended to get a better view of the Spiral Jetty along the shore of the Great Salt Lake, and the controller came on to warn me she would lose radar coverage if I went much lower. I thought that was interesting. Later on that same flight a different controller told me that they would lose contact for about 15 minutes (a known issue along that flight path).

Anyways, that's separate from the original post. Yes it's stupid to provide numerous waypoints for FF. Usually I just tell them where I'm going and that's all they need.

I get that when using FF crossing the state of Washington. There's an area south of Mt. Rainier when they can't see you on radar. Something about a big rock pile between them and you. No problem.
 
VFR is a valid entry in the FAA system. The FAA uses the method for VFR flightplans in the FRZ. I suggest that instead of trying to tell me that I can’t do something that I’ve done many times that you folks show a little gumption and figure out why it might not be working for you.

As for notifying ATC youse can just tell them using the radio thingy in yer aircraft. Or the altitude can follow the VFR on the form.
First I’ve ever heard of doing such a thing, so please forgive me of my ignorance (which I have a lot of).
 
Flew from POC to SBP a week or so ago - ATC wanted to know my route of flight - they did not want to know my actual route - they simply wanted to know how I going to navigate the turn - you can slip inland in the gap between Ventura and Santa Ynez, or you can take the route over San Marcus VOR or you can go over Gaviota and head north -

In SoCal when I'm VFR up at 7500-9500 I often stay away from the charted routes because it gets busy - and thats all he wanted to know - how I was navigating the turn northwest.

They can see your heading - and they know your destination - and they know their routes and your potential routes.

When I fly to SanDog I get asked whether I'm going inland or the coastal route. If I'm IFR they know - if I'm VFR they don't . . . and VFR I'll almost always fly the coastal route because its generally the VFR route . . .
 
@Shawn - its always easier to actually know what you are doing and TELL ATC what you are doing, right? Esp here in Calif.

Know what you're doing solves a lot of problems. Like moi I'm sure you get asked all the time what alt you want - its good to know that information! I NEVER notify ATC with a request - taking off you generally get an alt restriction - you get radar identified and then you are asked what altitude you want . . . the only reason they need to know is who to hand you off to - In SoCal over certain fringe areas LA Centers handles 8000 and above - unless you're in the Bravo areas then the Center is 10k and above - or outside the basin.

Calif is busy - and knowing why the controller is asking helps you answer - but yuou have to be paying attention to the question!
 
Calif is busy - and knowing why the controller is asking helps you answer - but you have to be paying attention to the question!

Exactly, why they are asking is generally more important than what they are asking and that is a nuance that many pilots do not seem to understand, nor is really taught anywhere short of a TRACON tour or just figuring out THEIR intentions on frequency...hence my original post.

Sometimes I feel ATC needs the latitude to respond with "Look Nimrod, next time here is what I am really asking for..."

I did kinda hear that on my flight down. Pilot inquired why ATC wanted to know which way they were headed. ATC said essentially "well if you go this way, not a problem, if you go that way not a problem, if you start that way and change your mind, that IS a problem. we just need to be able to coordinate the handoffs"
 
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Flew from POC to SBP a week or so ago - ATC wanted to know my route of flight - they did not want to know my actual route - they simply wanted to know how I going to navigate the turn - you can slip inland in the gap between Ventura and Santa Ynez, or you can take the route over San Marcus VOR or you can go over Gaviota and head north -

CP, out of curiosity, can you be more specific about the gap you're referring to?
 
Don't forget to make yourself feel like a jet pilot! 2,500 is best said as "Flight Level zero two five".

Haha!!!
That would be about the equivalent of wearing dork bars while flying a 152! ;)
 
Don't forget to make yourself feel like a jet pilot! 2,500 is best said as "Flight Level zero two five".

Haha!!!
Actually I know you’re kidding, but just to clarify for others..
Some countries do start the flight levels very low. I think I’ve see as low as FL030, but definitely FL040.
To be clear, this is not an altitude, thus called a flight level. When airliners are fling at FL350 the only time they’re actually at 35,000 feet is if the local altimeter happens to be 29.92.
Flight levels are just a datum reference using sea level pressure.
 
I'm not sure that "altitude your discretion" is an admonishment. It probably doesn't matter anyway, now that VFR altitude change reports are recommended in the AIM.

It is far from clear that every controller understands that. Admonishment is often clearly communicated in tone of voice. Come fly with me again, Richard! :)

Paul
 
Better to say 8,500 descending 6,500. For can be heard as four... and indicating climb or descend is a logical check on mishearing...
That's a myth. There's no such altitude as "four six thousand five hundred."
 
It is far from clear that every controller understands that. Admonishment is often clearly communicated in tone of voice.
Why does it matter?

Come fly with me again, Richard! :)

Hey, I know I'm getting forgetful in my old age, but when did we ever fly together? :confused2:
 
Don't forget to make yourself feel like a jet pilot! 2,500 is best said as "Flight Level zero two five".

Haha!!!

Hey now! I'm a real jet pilot and I say it as 2.5! LOL

I only have two main pet peeves when talking to ATC. One is "With You" and the other is the "All Traffic Please....". Everything else is just a laugh or sigh in passing during my work day. Heck, sometimes I sound like a complete idiot like when I try to say "Clear for Takeoff, heading 180, 18L". I sound like a two year old who can barely speak. Haha!
 
To be honest, all you WANT to hear is "maintain VFR", just means nobody is depicted on the radar scope to hit and that you aren't descending into an airspace you shouldn't be in!

When I'm on flight following with center it's often pretty quiet. I tell them anything I'm gonna do that changes my track on their scope.

"RV123 is going to maneuver for the next x miles for sight seeing and then return direct _____" usually gets a reply of "Advise direct ____"
"RV123 begining VFR descent" usually gets "Remain VFR"

I want to help them help me, and knowing what I think I'm doing helps them help me.

Probably another potential annoyance for controllers... if I've been buzzing along for half an hour without talking to the ground or hearing other people on the freq I'll call them up and say something like "RV123... it's pretty quiet up here, you still got me?" Usually the reply is yes and some expectation of how much longer I'll be in their sector. Makes me feel better. Doesn't seem to bother them.
 
Probably another potential annoyance for controllers... if I've been buzzing along for half an hour without talking to the ground or hearing other people on the freq I'll call them up and say something like "RV123... it's pretty quiet up here, you still got me?" Usually the reply is yes and some expectation of how much longer I'll be in their sector. Makes me feel better. Doesn't seem to bother them.

Wise move IMO. You may have missed a frequency change or dozed off, so good to check if it's been awhile. Especially true for an IFR flight.
 
CP, out of curiosity, can you be more specific about the gap you're referring to?
@eetrojan - its right where the 'CTC SBA Approach" box is - there is a narrow gap there that only goes up to 4500 or so - you can easily slip through at 5500 and above -
 

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@eetrojan - its right where the 'CTC SBA Approach" box is - there is a narrow gap there that only goes up to 4500 or so - you can easily slip through at 5500 and above -
I see what you mean. That would let you bypass the SBA class C and possibly some coastal stratus.
 
I see what you mean. That would let you bypass the SBA class C and possibly some coastal stratus.
If you're zipping along in a 172 at 4500 because you really can't comfortably climb much higher easily - then you're not going to see it!

I know I know - its not that hard to get to 6500 in a 172. . . but to comfortably go over any of these mountains with 4000' peaks you're gonna want to be at 6500 . .
 
Really? You’ve never had a controller help you avoid traffic? Do you fly under a Bravo?
I dunno - I've had controllers call traffic, but not sure it helped me avoid the other aircraft; likely one or both of us would have seen the other, and if not, still not merged aluminum. Cruise flight collisions are pretty rare, and I prefer the quiet. The sky is big, my airplane is small.

Most of my flights orginate in the DC FRZ, so yep, I do "Bravo+". When not IFR I've come to prefer less intrusion. I just don't value the service, or the occasional restrictions it sometimes imposes. YMMV, and I understand some people like it. No worries, but not for me.
 
When I'm on flight following with center it's often pretty quiet. I tell them anything I'm gonna do that changes my track on their scope.

"RV123 is going to maneuver for the next x miles for sight seeing and then return direct _____" usually gets a reply of "Advise direct ____"
"RV123 begining VFR descent" usually gets "Remain VFR"

I want to help them help me, and knowing what I think I'm doing helps them help me.

Probably another potential annoyance for controllers... if I've been buzzing along for half an hour without talking to the ground or hearing other people on the freq I'll call them up and say something like "RV123... it's pretty quiet up here, you still got me?" Usually the reply is yes and some expectation of how much longer I'll be in their sector. Makes me feel better. Doesn't seem to bother them.

Yeah. Or you can ask them if they got the score to Cowboys Rams game...
 
Actually I know you’re kidding, but just to clarify for others..
Some countries do start the flight levels very low. I think I’ve see as low as FL030, but definitely FL040.
To be clear, this is not an altitude, thus called a flight level. When airliners are fling at FL350 the only time they’re actually at 35,000 feet is if the local altimeter happens to be 29.92.
Flight levels are just a datum reference using sea level pressure.
Yeah. There's lotsa places in the world where it's a long way between stations that report altimeter settings. A common reference is needed to keep the 'aluminum' a thousand feet apart.
 
I dunno - I've had controllers call traffic, but not sure it helped me avoid the other aircraft; likely one or both of us would have seen the other, and if not, still not merged aluminum. Cruise flight collisions are pretty rare, and I prefer the quiet. The sky is big, my airplane is small.

Most of my flights orginate in the DC FRZ, so yep, I do "Bravo+". When not IFR I've come to prefer less intrusion. I just don't value the service, or the occasional restrictions it sometimes imposes. YMMV, and I understand some people like it. No worries, but not for me.
Good point. Traffic Advisories, more commonly known as Flight Following exist to 'assist' the pilot in complying with their responsibility to 'see and avoid.'
 
Better to say 8,500 descending 6,500. For can be heard as four... and indicating climb or descend is a logical check on mishearing...

Paul
How about the equally confusing "to"?

Ever read the AIM on this one?

2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:
(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft’s assigned altitude preceded by the words “level,” or “climbing to,” or “descending to,” as appropriate; and the aircraft’s present vacating altitude, if applicable.
EXAMPLE−
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
 
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and if ATC somehow thought you were reporting at 8,504 instead of 8,500, the consequences would be...

ATC saying “my software only reports in 100 ft increments, so 8,504 is usless to me.” ;)
 
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