VFR pilot, first real IMC experience

You were lucky,wouldn't make it a habit. Talking to ATC and declaring your in a cloud. They will get you out with a minimum of turns,into vmc as soon as practical.
 
mtuomi said:
...Declaring an emergency would have changed my mindset from "fly the plane, turn around, descend to pre-decided altitude and get out of here" to "I need help and need to get out right now". First situation didn't really increase my heartrate, the second situation very likely would have. I was already flying the plane 100% in reference to the instruments. Changing the mindset where you operate induces disorientation...
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Not sure why you think those two are mutually exclusive...
 
mtuomi said:
Touching the radio was not a problem, I looked at a sectional to find the closest ATIS frequency, dialed that in the COM2, operated the audio panel to set COM2 to listen, wrote down the info, and so on.

Declaring an emergency would have changed my mindset from "fly the plane, turn around, descend to pre-decided altitude and get out of here" to "I need help and need to get out right now". First situation didn't really increase my heartrate, the second situation very likely would have. I was already flying the plane 100% in reference to the instruments. Changing the mindset where you operate induces disorientation.
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Your story just changed significantly.

Originally, you said it was a matter of prioritizing aviating over communicating. But in fact you were communicating just fine. You were even reading your sectional and tuning your radios just fine, all while flying in IMC. But you refused to inform ATC of your emergency while talking to them, because acknowledging that you "needed help" would have "increased your heart rate" and "changed your mindset" so as to disorient you.

Frankly, your new explanation sounds extraordinarily implausible, and if accurate, shows that you are unprepared to deal properly with emergencies. IF your workload allows you to communicate--and by your account it did, easily--then communicating your emergency should have had a high priority at that point. If ATC then instructed you to do something you couldn't handle during the emergency, you could have declined under your emergency authority. If necessary, you could have done exactly what you intended to do in the first place--except with ATC aware of your situation, and of the additional traffic separation precautions that were required.

And all of that should have been contemplated and rehearsed many times before you were ever in such a situation for real. I'd respectfully urge you that instead of rationalizing your failure to mention your circumstances to ATC, you should pursue additional training so the correct response becomes second nature in the future.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Not sure why you think those two are mutually exclusive...
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I don't necessarily want to speak for the OP but I think he or she meant that declaring an emergency would have introduced an additional level of stress that they didn't want at the time.
 
Dead Stick said:
1. Fill out and submit the NASA ASRS form.
2. Count your blessings that you managed to avoid making a 4 minute segment in the evening news.
3. If you're going to keep screwing around at night you really need to get serious about that instrument rating.
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This!

And thanks for sharing your experience.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't necessarily want to speak for the OP but I think he or she meant that declaring an emergency would have introduced an additional level of stress that they didn't want at the time.
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Then some additional training is in order... Help from ATC in an emergency is there to reduce the stress by taking worries, such as traffic avoidance, off of your mind. Whether you said the "E" word or not, the same situation exists. When properly used, ATC will greatly help keep you keep the shiney side up...
 
You made it out alive, that is all that matters.

Expect to get grilled here when you admit to a mistake because everyone knows here that only you make mistakes :rolleyes2:

I would of been proud of my ability to get out alive too. It just proves the need for your IR ticket.
 
2 thoughts:

1) glad you're here talking about how you got out of this situation instead of reading about you in the paper.

2) maybe it's just my minimums, but there's no way in h-e-double-hockey-sticks I'm flying at night with a solid overcast layer at 3500'. can it be done? sure. but not by my standards.

your route was almost 300nm. I 'MIGHT' fly LOCALLY with 3500' ovc layer forecasted DURING THE DAY. MAYBE. sure, people will call me a p-u-s-s-y but I don't give a phuk. not gonna do it and end up, uh, where you did lol.
 
N801BH said:
Geez man... You were out over the Atlantic... You get in clouds...... you decend:yes::wink2: .... There are NO planes below you going into FLL and the water is O' MSL.. I can guarentee the clouds didn't go down to sea level.. Once low enough to get back VFR, do a 180 and head back toward the shoreline....

If you were VFR using flight following....... Miami Center cannot vector you.. Just cancel FF and get your ass back on the ground safely.. IMHO..
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Guarantee clouds don't go down to sea level? Interesting.

OP, I think you did well. You didn't freak out and you eventually landed the plane. Planes don't stop flying because it's dark outside, or there is a cloud. Could you have done some things better or differently? Sure...but that my friend is called experience, and you just got some.

We hardly ever learn from those times that we succeed.

FWIW...night = instrument time to me. If you're not gonna get IR, the at least know how to keep the plane flying in the direction you want it to.
 
acrophile said:
Your story just changed significantly.

Originally, you said it was a matter of prioritizing aviating over communicating. But in fact you were communicating just fine. You were even reading your sectional and tuning your radios just fine, all while flying in IMC. But you refused to inform ATC of your emergency while talking to them, because acknowledging that you "needed help" would have "increased your heart rate" and "changed your mindset" so as to disorient you.

Frankly, your new explanation sounds extraordinarily implausible, and if accurate, shows that you are unprepared to deal properly with emergencies. IF your workload allows you to communicate--and by your account it did, easily--then communicating your emergency should have had a high priority at that point. If ATC then instructed you to do something you couldn't handle during the emergency, you could have declined under your emergency authority. If necessary, you could have done exactly what you intended to do in the first place--except with ATC aware of your situation, and of the additional traffic separation precautions that were required.

And all of that should have been contemplated and rehearsed many times before you were ever in such a situation for real. I'd respectfully urge you that instead of rationalizing your failure to mention your circumstances to ATC, you should pursue additional training so the correct response becomes second nature in the future.
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I was communicating just fine using the standard procedures I always use. I did not want to start using RT nor procedures I am not familiar with. That is the key point I was trying to make.

So, let's have two possible scenarios;

1) You are a VFR pilot, legally flying in pretty much instrument conditions, flying solely with reference to instruments. You suddenly realize you are in a cloud. You try to ignore the fact that you are in a cloud, reverting back to flight procedures you are most familiar with. You come up with a plan how to exit the situation, you execute that plan, and you come out fine. You think "hmm, that was a ****ty situation, I need to process what I did and how to avoid it in the future", done.

2) You are a VFR pilot, legally flying in pretty much instrument conditions, flying solely with reference to instruments. You suddenly realize you are in a cloud. You decide this is an emergency, and you need to get out soon. You use non-standard-to-you RT with ATC, explaining your situation. You are unsure what ATCs response will be, and you have to concentrate more on their replies, increasing your workload. You end up hearing something you did not expect, you read it back incorrectly, this upsets you, you think what you should do, all while the plane is already 5 miles ahead of you, possibly in a death spiral towards that unlucky sailboat who did not sign up for that risk.

Lets rationalize this a bit. Obviously I did not think this while I was flying, but it is always interesting to try to figure out why you did things the way you did.
First of all, your brain will work in preset patterns on routine tasks, and they require minimal cognitive effort from you. These procedures such as reading back routine clearances, flying the plane by using your eyes to reference your position to the horizon, and so on.
Now, when you have to concentrate on keeping the shiny side up by referring to instruments instead of your peripheral vision and horizon, this takes much more effort and concentration than flying normally does. It is impossible to come up with a number of % on how much brain capacity you have left for other tasks, but it is a safe assumption that it is less, than during normal operation.
Then, if we add another task we are unfamiliar with, such as communicating in a non-standard way, there is no way to know if we exceed the available processing power.
Problem is, that since we are so used on working with ATC using the correct phraseology and readbacks, changing that to a "free format" transmitting will divert your attention there.
 
acrophile said:
Frankly, your new explanation sounds extraordinarily implausible, and if accurate, shows that you are unprepared to deal properly with emergencies.

IF your workload allows you to communicate--and by your account it did, easily--then communicating your emergency should have had a high priority at that point.

And all of that should have been contemplated and rehearsed many times before you were ever in such a situation for real. I'd respectfully urge you that instead of rationalizing your failure to mention your circumstances to ATC, you should pursue additional training so the correct response becomes second nature in the future.
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Contrary to your assertion, the OP realized he was in a dangerous situation, he concentrated on flying the aircraft, and successfully extricated himself from the situation. He was indeed properly prepared to deal with the emergency, he flew the aircraft, which is priority one.

You seem to be fixated on the need to get on the radio and inform ATC he was in a cloud..."communicating your emergency should have had a high priority at that point". What's more important, concentrating on the AI or making a radio call? Keeping your spatial orientation or having a conversation?

You further recommend that he rehearse radio procedures "many times"...for what? So he uses the correct phraseology to inform ATC he is VFR in a cloud? Pursue additional training so the "correct response becomes second nature"? A radio conversation rather than piloting? Really?

What's more important, flying the aircraft and maintaining control, or talking on the radio?

That's nuts.
 
Few things I definitely did notice:

- Turn coordinator is an amazing instrument. VFR pilots don't give it the praise it deserves.

- Wing strobes should go off the second you enter a cloud. Makes you feel like you are in the middle of a cheap horror movie scene.

- No, you can not see a cloud before you enter it during night flying over water.

- It is nice to know you handled an emergency well enough so you can listen to the PoA crowds criticizing your actions :)
 
mtuomi said:
Yep, I did not know I suffered from Mayday Anxiety before this. Now I know I need more training in it.
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Good to hear. Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh earlier, but I was is the same spot a few years back. Once I popped the "E-word/U-word" cherry, it really opens up your brain when it's going down-hill.
 
If it's any help, the times I have declared an emergency, I felt like it freed up my mind to concentrate on doing what needed to be done. It also reduced the chances of other aircraft getting in the way of dealing with the emergency. If, in the process, you get to a point where you feel that answering an ATC question will distract you from maintaining control of the aircraft, feel free to say "standby," and answer when you are sure that higher priority issues are under control.
 
Palmpilot said:
If it's any help, the times I have declared an emergency, I felt like it freed up my mind to concentrate on doing what needed to be done. It also reduced the chances of other aircraft getting in the way of dealing with the emergency. If, in the process, you get to a point where you feel that answering an ATC question will distract you from maintaining control of the aircraft, feel free to say "standby," and answer when you are sure that higher priority issues are under control.
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Yup, I know of p*ss anxiety, but before this I didn't know there is also mayday anxiety :)
 
The DPE I did my checkride with was very clear that accidentally flying into a cloud was not an emergency but that I should ask for help from ATC. The rationale was that we are trained to get out or fly by reference to instruments while also talking on the radio. ATC expects us to be able to follow their instructions to get out of IMC if we somehow get into that situation.

Sounds like OP got out of the situation. Sure, he could have done things differently or better, but that's called learning and experience. I'm sure he's grateful that all these smart, experienced individuals have offered all this Monday morning QBing.
 
I would strongly recommend that you google "178 seconds to live" and watch the YouTube. It is very old, but still very valid.

An old F86 pilot told me something in conversation a few months ago. We were talking about people who had told their zero/zero landing stories. This was a grizzled old pilot that's done all kinds of things and his words of wisdom were; "the best thing is to try not put yourself in that situation to start with." This phrase would be a good foundation for the mindset of preventing being caught in clouds over the ocean at night too. Even being caught over the water with no moonlight could be enough to put you on the evening news.

Adding to the above, I went to a safety seminar a few years ago at Air Salvage of Dallas. The guy who gathers up the wreckages in the southwest US stood Us next to a pile of aluminum that once had been an air rescue helicopter. The aircraft had been dispatched from Galveston to help a boat at. Sea, but was called off the mission when the coast guard found the vessel.

When making the turn back to shore over the water with no moonlight, he went inverted and into the water. The pilot had been on that job for eight years and had been instrument current for longer than that. Something to think about.

BTW, the really good news here is that you have now been tested under fire and kept a cool head in a stressful flight situation.
 
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wlawr005 said:
Guarantee clouds don't go down to sea level? Interesting.

OP, I think you did well. You didn't freak out and you eventually landed the plane. Planes don't stop flying because it's dark outside, or there is a cloud. Could you have done some things better or differently? Sure...but that my friend is called experience, and you just got some.

We hardly ever learn from those times that we succeed.

FWIW...night = instrument time to me. If you're not gonna get IR, the at least know how to keep the plane flying in the direction you want it to.
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I spent the first 30 years of my life in Miami. living on the bay / ocean most of if.. I can count on ONE hand the times clouds went to the surface of the water... Let's see... 5 fingers out of 10,950 days..... I will take those odds any day...

Water temps is South Fla are ALOT different then water temps in Virginia, and that delta is what drives clouds, or the lack of them... to the surface.... IMHO... YMMV...
 
Just a comment. Here in Michigan we have the Great Lakes. On the West side of Michigan it is Lake Michigan. Our winds are mostly from the west so most runways are oriented toward the lake. At night there are ground lights and such between the airport and the shore giving you a sense of the horizon, but on a dark overcast night for those airports close to the water as soon as you rotate and the last few houses between you and the water go out of view it becomes zero-zero - and 80 miles to the far side which is below the horizon at a 100 feet. We lose a pilot every couple of years this way. Complete loss of orientation and too low to recover when he does see something coming up at him.
 
You know, I see these guys freaking out that you didn't freak out. Certainly you were on the cusp of an emergency situation, and realized it, but you made a decision not to declare an emergency because you had the situation handled.

You managed the situation and got out safely. You handled it just fine. Don't let these guys tell you how poorly you managed the situation... you did not. You were obviously well trained because you were able to switch over to instruments, trust them, and get yourself safely on the ground... which is what really matters.

Fill out the NASA form and move on... now you have a story to tell other pilots. You made it out safely... that is now a mandate to educate others about your inadvertent situation. The more stories exchanged, the safer we can all fly.

Good job staying cool, calm, and collected. That is what saves lives first and foremost.
 
OP, thanks for telling your story. My take is, you made some mistakes, made decisions,and flew the plane. It is easy to not make posts like this on this board because of the blowhards of superior knowledge and skill that will rake you over the coals. I made a couple of posts as a student that taught me to never do it again. That is a shame too because you can get a lot of great advice and feedback here, but it is really tough to put up with the donkeys. Those are always negative, I guess it makes them feel superior.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I would strongly recommend that you google "178 seconds to live" and watch the YouTube. It is very old, but still very valid.
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SmartPilot redid that study a while ago and found much the same thing. But frankly, the first time I tried to fly a Redbird I got into trouble too - and that was even in "VMC". Even though I was an ABC instrument student at the time (All But Checkride), when I tried my hand at shooting an instrument approach I found it *much* harder than the real thing. PC "simulators" just aren't the same as flying a real airplane to begin with, and there is no way that I would intentionally launch into real IFR conditions in a plane that was unfamiliar to me anyway.

I also noticed that the pilots in that study were middle aged, at least the ones who were shown in the video. Older brains take longer to get the hang of new things. I suspect that, too, may have affected their ability to get the feel of the new "airplane" in the few minutes of VMC that they started off in.

That said, I'm a little surprised that the pilots didn't seem to know that steeper than standard rate turns are dangerous in the soup. That's one of the first things that my CFI drilled into me as a *primary* student doing my 3 hours of hood time. Maybe they were unconsciously treating the yoke as a steering wheel?

Yes, anyone can succumb to spatial disorientation, you need to be on top of your game - and prepared - before entering the clouds. The absolute worst state of mind to be in in an airplane is panic. Do we really want VFR pilots to be thinking they are going to die if they should happen to fly into a cloud?
 
mikeinbama said:
OP, thanks for telling your story. My take is, you made some mistakes, made decisions,and flew the plane. It is easy to not make posts like this on this board because of the blowhards of superior knowledge and skill that will rake you over the coals. I made a couple of posts as a student that taught me to never do it again. That is a shame too because you can get a lot of great advice and feedback here, but it is really tough to put up with the donkeys. Those are always negative, I guess it makes them feel superior.
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^^^^ Correct and unfortunate!

Mike, the know-it-alls are the ones who are really endangering themselves and others. I don't care whether you're a student pilot or a 25,000 hour ATP. When you already know everything, you have no incentive to learn new things... and that is more dangerous than making a mistake and learning from it. But, then again, I'm sure these guys will chime in that they've never made a mistake.
 
ahkahn said:
^^^^ Correct and unfortunate!

Mike, the know-it-alls are the ones who are really endangering themselves and others. I don't care whether you're a student pilot or a 25,000 hour ATP. When you already know everything, you have no incentive to learn new things... and that is more dangerous than making a mistake and learning from it. But, then again, I'm sure these guys will chime in that they've never made a mistake.
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Hmmmm..

We have ALL made mistakes.....

The issue most of us have commented on was the lack of bailing out ASAP... A prompt 180 was in order,,,, not maintaining a 060 vector headed out to sea and in the clouds.....

That was a bone headed move on the OP's part and we pointed it out..
 
I dunno, I think keepin, straight and level, while descending to VMC, is a better option in his case. Less chance of SD that way.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I would strongly recommend that you google "178 seconds to live" and watch the YouTube. It is very old, but still very valid...
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That statistic was NEVER valid for the purpose it's usually used for. It was based on a 1954 study in which the study designers intentionally created conditions that could be expected to produce loss of control incidents, so that they could test the effectiveness of a proposed training syllabus. They chose an aircraft type that they expected would make a successful outcome most difficult. They chose test subjects who had never soloed in type, and had no previous instrument experience under either simulated or actual conditions. (Does anyone here know if hood training for private pilot applicants was instituted later than 1954?) In addition, they covered the attitude indicator, the directional gyro, and the vertical speed indicator. THAT is the situation that the "178 seconds to live" statistic applies to.

http://www.aviation.illinois.edu/avimain/papers/research/pub_pdfs/journalpubs/180 Degree Turn.pdf

There is a danger, IMO, that this statistic as usually quoted could induce panic in pilots who get into the OP's situation. One thing the OP did absolutely right was that HE DIDN'T PANIC.

In relation to that, he mentioned that he didn't let ATC know what was happening because he was concerned about the possibility of additional communication tasks putting him into a state of mental overload. It's certainly true that the instrument training given to private pilot applicants is very rudimentary, and a successful outcome is more likely if the tasks are kept simple. On the other hand, I believe controllers are aware of the need to keep things simple when dealing with non-instrument rated pilots who get into instrument conditions, so informing them that that was the case could also help AVOID overload.
 
mtuomi said:
………………….
Anyway, back to reading instrument pilots handbook. That experience made me decide I need my IR sooner rather than later.
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Yes, the instrument rating is the other half of your pilots license. On an IFR flight this whole thing would'a been a non-event.
 
mtuomi said:
Completely pitch black, no way to see horizon, half moon not visible due to an overcast layer. Still legal though.
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Are you sure? It sounds like at this point even before you were in the cloud you were no longer flying using outside visual cues. You had to be relying on your instruments to maintain altitude and heading. So technically doesn't this mean you were effectively IMC as a non-IR pilot?

:nono:

I'm also surprised by how you resolved this. Every primary student is taught to immediately get out of IMC by doing a 180. Congratulations on surviving though.
 
sixpacker said:
Are you sure? It sounds like at this point even before you were in the cloud you were no longer flying using outside visual cues. You had to be relying on your instruments to maintain altitude and heading. So technically doesn't this mean you were effectively IMC as a non-IR pilot?

:nono:

I'm also surprised by how you resolved this. Every primary student is taught to immediately get out of IMC by doing a 180. Congratulations on surviving though.
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Nighttime flying with no outside reference is legal for a VFR-only pilot. It can also be logged as instrument time. Someone will soon come and pull out that Chief Counsel ruling about it.
 
mtuomi said:
Nighttime flying with no outside reference is legal for a VFR-only pilot. It can also be logged as instrument time. Someone will soon come and pull out that Chief Counsel ruling about it.
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There's been more than 1 thread on it already.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68934

Interpretation is in the Carr letter.

Basically, it is possible (and legal) to satisfy VFR vis and cloud clearance requirements but impossible to fly without sole reference to instruments (such as on a dark, moonless night over an ocean). Thus, inst time as a VFR pilot.
 
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mtuomi;1654306[B said:
]Nighttime flying with no outside reference is legal for a VFR-only pilot. It can also be logged as instrument time.[/B] Someone will soon come and pull out that Chief Counsel ruling about it.
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Hell.... I didn't know that ...:nonod::redface:
 
Was the OP in airspace which required positive control/vectors? (class B or C) Or was this a case of FF?
 
Originally Posted by docmirror
Was the OP in airspace which required positive control/vectors? (class B or C) Or was this a case of FF?




mtuomi said:
VFR Flight Following, class C airspace.
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ATC can NOT give vectors to VFR aircraft.. They can ( suggest) a heading though..;)
 
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