VFR minimums in the pattern

roncachamp said:
What are you going to for the portion of the approach that is outside of the Class D surface area?
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I was hoping that somebody could help me out with that one. Outside Class D would be class E therefore I would assume that SVFR would still possibly be an option. I guess that this would require coordination with Minneapolis Center so it would be difficult to do. I am getting frustrated with the crappy weather we have in the winter here near Lake Superior.
 
azure said:
Not to mention, how are you going to stay clear of clouds while climbing to the published altitudes for the initial and intermediate segments of the approach if you have a 500 foot overcast?
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500 foot cloud clearance, not 500 foot overcast.
 
Gary F said:
I was hoping that somebody could help me out with that one. Outside Class D would be class E therefore I would assume that SVFR would still possibly be an option. I guess that this would require coordination with Minneapolis Center so it would be difficult to do. I am getting frustrated with the crappy weather we have in the winter here near Lake Superior.
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SVFR is possible only in a surface area, does the Class E airspace you'd be in outside of the Class D airspace reach to the surface? What airport?
 
roncachamp said:
SVFR is possible only in a surface area, does the Class E airspace you'd be in outside of the Class D airspace reach to the surface? What airport?
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I don't know but I doubt it. KSAW. At least I should be able to use SVFR for flying in the pattern when the ceiling is over 1000' but less than 1500' as this is a common occurrence in the winter. Would SVFR for pattern work be inappropriate?
 
Gary F said:
I don't know but I doubt it. KSAW.
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Class E airspace beginning at the surface is designated by segmented magenta lines on sectional charts. KSAW has none so SVFR is not available outside of the Class D airspace.

At least I should be able to use SVFR for flying in the pattern when the ceiling is over 1000' but less than 1500' as this is a common occurrence in the winter. Would SVFR for pattern work be inappropriate?
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Pattern work can be done under SVFR.
 
roncachamp said:
500 foot cloud clearance, not 500 foot overcast.
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Ahh, okay. I misread the post.

We've had that kind of weather all winter long down here too. Lake stratus, bases typically at 2500-3500 AGL, full of ice. I haven't been able to do any hoodwork since December (though wx has been only part of the problem).

Though up at KSAW, I'll bet that at least some of the time, those clouds are cold enough to be completely glaciated, and you could shoot some approaches at least partly in actual.
 
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azure said:
We've had that kind of weather all winter long down here too. Lake stratus, bases typically at 2500-3500 AGL, full of ice. I haven't been able to do any hoodwork since December (though wx has been only part of the problem).

Though up at KSAW, I'll bet that at least some of the time, those clouds are cold enough to be completely glaciated, and you could shoot some approaches at least partly in actual.
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I don't fly in actual IMC when the temp is under freezing. Lake Superior is a great heat sink so temps are usually not cold enough to get below icing conditions.
 
Gary F said:
I was hoping that somebody could help me out with that one. Outside Class D would be class E therefore I would assume that SVFR would still possibly be an option.
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Read 91.157 again.
Sec. 91.157

Special VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in Sec. 91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.
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Outside that surface-based area around the airport, either you go IFR or you maintain 91.155 cloud clearances.
 
Gary F said:
I don't know but I doubt it. KSAW. At least I should be able to use SVFR for flying in the pattern when the ceiling is over 1000' but less than 1500' as this is a common occurrence in the winter. Would SVFR for pattern work be inappropriate?
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No, it would not be inappropriate. However, it's up to the tower controller based on IFR traffic in and out, since the controller is required to separate you from that other traffic, and the tools available in the tower for that may be limited.
 
Since we've moved into SVFR - The scenario where the class-D reports clear, and greater than 6 miels vis, except for that one puffy cu that's floating right at the end of the rwy. Taking off or landing could put you in violation of cloud-clearances. Probably I'm too cautious about this - but is it techinally correct to request SVFR? The tower would probably think you're nuts.
 
Matthew said:
Since we've moved into SVFR - The scenario where the class-D reports clear, and greater than 6 miels vis, except for that one puffy cu that's floating right at the end of the rwy. Taking off or landing could put you in violation of cloud-clearances. Probably I'm too cautious about this - but is it techinally correct to request SVFR? The tower would probably think you're nuts.
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I have wondered about this myself. Another scenario is a scattered layer that is almost a broken layer and you would like to avoid any cloud clearance issues.
 
Matthew said:
Since we've moved into SVFR - The scenario where the class-D reports clear, and greater than 6 miels vis, except for that one puffy cu that's floating right at the end of the rwy. Taking off or landing could put you in violation of cloud-clearances. Probably I'm too cautious about this - but is it techinally correct to request SVFR? The tower would probably think you're nuts.
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Not if the controller knows his stuff. From JO 7110.65T Air Traffic Control, para 7-5-1:


b. SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft
operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D,
or Class E surface area when the primary airport is
reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR
cannot be maintained.
NOTE-
The basic requirements for issuance of a SVFR clearance
in subpara a apply with the obvious exception that weather
conditions at the controlling airport are not required to be
less than basic VFR minima.
 
Gary F said:
I have wondered about this myself. Another scenario is a scattered layer that is almost a broken layer and you would like to avoid any cloud clearance issues.
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That's pretty much the same scenario.
 
Gary F said:
I have wondered about this myself. Another scenario is a scattered layer that is almost a broken layer and you would like to avoid any cloud clearance issues.
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The density of the layer is irrelevant to this issue. It's the distance to the nearest edge of the cloud that matters, not whether there are more clouds beyond it or how close together they are.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, it would not be inappropriate. However, it's up to the tower controller based on IFR traffic in and out, since the controller is required to separate you from that other traffic, and the tools available in the tower for that may be limited.
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It's actually up to the Minneapolis Center controller.
 
roncachamp said:
It's actually up to the Minneapolis Center controller.
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How does that work? I ask the Class D tower for SVFR for pattern work. Tower calls Center for permission? The tower controller clears me for takeoff and the option multiple times until Center tells the tower to cancel SVFR?
 
Gary F said:
How does that work? I ask the Class D tower for SVFR for pattern work. Tower calls Center for permission? The tower controller clears me for takeoff and the option multiple times until Center tells the tower to cancel SVFR?
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That's pretty much how it works. From the Minneapolis ARTC Center/K.I. Sawyer Tower Letter of Agreemant:


3. PROCEDURES. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Unless otherwise coordinated, the following procedures shall apply: [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]d. Special VFR.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Upon request by K. I. Sawyer Tower, the Center may authorize special VFR operations in the K.I. Sawyer Class D airspace for specific periods of time and at or below 3,700 feet MSL. The Center shall retain the authority to withdraw this option at any time.[/FONT][/FONT]
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Not a lot of IFR traffic (or any traffic) really going into SAW. In all the times I've been there, I've seen 2 other planes (both regional carriers) land or take off.
 
EdFred said:
Not a lot of IFR traffic (or any traffic) really going into SAW. In all the times I've been there, I've seen 2 other planes (both regional carriers) land or take off.
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Hey, that's Sawyer International Airport to you. It is usually fairly quiet but we do have more IFR traffic at times. We also have a longer runway than GRR by 2366 feet so don't even think of insulting us.
 
Hey, I like SAW. I can stay at TPA until over the numbers when landing 19, and still make it down to turn off at the pumps. :D
 
EdFred said:
Hey, I like SAW. I can stay at TPA until over the numbers when landing 19, and still make it down to turn off at the pumps. :D
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Also the runway is real wide, 300 feet if you count the 75 foot shoulders on each side. The FBO is not as fancy as GRR but the guys who work here are really friendly.
 
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