VFR into IMC

WannFly

WannFly

Final Approach
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
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KLZU
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Priyo
someone took a lot of courage to post it on YT

 
i think he stopped processing a while ago when the controller told him that the ceiling was 1400 ahead and he was at 1600, he listened to it, didnt process. he was already task saturated by then. glad to see good outcome, per his post mortem video, he is studying for IR... reminds me to get off my arse and do the same while my arse is already parked in the house
 
Although we are drilled from Day 1: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, I really think that after failing to make contact with Approach he should have gone back to the previous freq (still in the Standby position) and let them know he was unable to make contact and to let them know he was diverting. He completely left ATC hanging with no idea what he was doing.

Also, when first told to remain VFR, he was already busting basic VFR cloud clearances. There is no way he was 500 feet below those clouds.
 
MauleSkinner said:
what kind of airspace was he in?
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Good point. One might gues he could be in Class G. However, given his general location ("1.5 hours" NE of KTME), ATC communications ("My minimum vectoring altitude... ...By the way, that is my minimum IFR vectoring altitude") and his displayed MSL (2,400'), I think it pretty safe to say he was well above 1,200' AGL and deep into Class E airspace.
 
smv said:
Good point. One might gues he could be in Class G. However, given his general location ("1.5 hours" NE of KTME), ATC communications ("My minimum vectoring altitude... ...By the way, that is my minimum IFR vectoring altitude") and his displayed MSL (2,400'), I think it pretty safe to say he was well above 1,200' AGL and deep into Class E airspace.
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When he was at 2400', I'd say that's a pretty good bet...but just before he climbed into the clouds he was down under 1300' MSL.
 
Looks like he had no clue about those clouds and his relationship to them, he was skimming them for a while, then went through a couple puffs when he realized he was too close, started his turn and climbed right into them. Not a big deal, luckily he got right back out of them, but damn, he should have been 500 feet below them, 99 percent sure he was in E airspace. He does have 20 hours ifr, whatever that means. A cross country with 1400 foot ceilings is a problem though. I think ATC thought he was a goner.
 
PaulS said:
started his turn and climbed right into them. Not a big deal, luckily he got right back out of them,...
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that, to me, IS a big deal...if he can’t maintain altitude in a turn, he shouldn’t be out there.
“PaulS” said:
he should have been 500 feet below them, 99 percent sure he was in E airspace.
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I’m 99% sure that by the time he was near clouds, he wouldn’t have had the excess brain power to wonder what kind of airspace he was in, much less make that determination or recall cloud clearance requirements.
 
MauleSkinner said:
that, to me, IS a big deal...if he can’t maintain altitude in a turn, he shouldn’t be out there.

I’m 99% sure that by the time he was near clouds, he wouldn’t have had the excess brain power to wonder what kind of airspace he was in, much less make that determination or recall cloud clearance requirements.
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If he can't maintain altitude when there's a cloud right there providing reference even.....

I don't get the flying into IMC thing. Can some people not tell that the clouds in front are below them?
 
MauleSkinner said:
that, to me, IS a big deal...if he can’t maintain altitude in a turn, he shouldn’t be out there.

I’m 99% sure that by the time he was near clouds, he wouldn’t have had the excess brain power to wonder what kind of airspace he was in, much less make that determination or recall cloud clearance requirements.
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I should have been clearer, not a big deal as in it didn't kill him, but yes it was a big deal as in it shouldn't have happened.

Your brain power thing is an interesting comment. I think he had the brain power up until just before the ****e hit the fan when he was messing with the radio, it just didn't occur to him that the clouds were a problem, which is concerning.

I think there are way too many VFR pilots who are way to confident in their ability to fly in the clouds, even this guy after he survived it seemed to think it was because of his superior training in the clouds. He didn't do that good of a job.
 
Salty said:
If he can't maintain altitude when there's a cloud right there providing reference even.....

I don't get the flying into IMC thing. Can some people not tell that the clouds in front are below them?
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When you are zipping along, just below them as this guy was, they can and do engulf you at any time. That's why flying vfr I keep a healthy distance from them, if I can't do that I ask for a clearance. That has only happened to me once since I got my rating a year ago.
 
PaulS said:
When you are zipping along, just below them as this guy was, they can and do engulf you at any time. That's why flying vfr I keep a healthy distance from them, if I can't do that I ask for a clearance. That has only happened to me once since I got my rating a year ago.
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I can’t see it. I guess I don’t get close enough to have that problem. Like 500 feet for example.
 
Salty said:
I can’t see it. I guess I don’t get close enough to have that problem. Like 500 feet for example.
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You will never see it because you understand and follow the rules. Or I should say, you will see it coming well before it becomes an issue. I've seen it on IFR flight plans, a few times, say where the cloud deck is maybe 4050 feet and I've been cleared to 4,000. It's cool to watch and fun to fly in when you are supposed to be there. Although most of the time it seems to be the cloud is below and rises up to swallow you up.
 
PaulS said:
When you are zipping along, just below them as this guy was, they can and do engulf you at any time. That's why flying vfr I keep a healthy distance from them, if I can't do that I ask for a clearance. That has only happened to me once since I got my rating a year ago.
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No, this guy chose to fly in the ragged edges of the clouds rather than the 100 or so feet lower that would have kept him out of the clouds and in excellent visibility, so he could’ve easily seen where he may have been approaching lower clouds and/or terrain.

In Class G (and I’m not claiming that’s where he was, just that’s where it’s legal), “clear of clouds” can be done safely. Unfortunately there are those who think that something they’d never do suddenly becomes a good idea simply because they screwed up and pressed on without a plan.
 
MauleSkinner said:
No, this guy chose to fly in the ragged edges of the clouds rather than the 100 or so feet lower that would have kept him out of the clouds and in excellent visibility, so he could’ve easily seen where he may have been approaching lower clouds and/or terrain.

In Class G (and I’m not claiming that’s where he was, just that’s where it’s legal), “clear of clouds” can be done safely. Unfortunately there are those who think that something they’d never do suddenly becomes a good idea simply because they screwed up and pressed on without a plan.
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I covered that in my first post, but yes I agree, even 100 feet would have been too close to the clouds, it looks like all E airspace around that area.
 
When the sun is descending, the air temp starts falling. When the air temp is real close to the dewpoint, like it is near the cloud levels, cloud can form quickly in clear air air as the temp meets the dewpoint. This is the sort of thing that has claimed a lot of lives in mountain flying. Keeping just clear of cloud is no guarantee of safety at all. You could turn around and find your exit blocked off.
 
Dan Thomas said:
When the sun is descending, the air temp starts falling. When the air temp is real close to the dewpoint, like it is near the cloud levels, cloud can form quickly in clear air air as the temp meets the dewpoint. This is the sort of thing that has claimed a lot of lives in mountain flying. Keeping just clear of cloud is no guarantee of safety at all. You could turn around and find your exit blocked off.
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Any number of things that people advocate are no guarantee of safety, including an instrument rating, 3 attitude indicators and fancy autopilots. Knowledge and judgment need to be applied, clearly both of which this guy lacked on that particular day.
 
He was in over his head way before the clouds. He asked for the Jennings info 3 times. Had the wife messing with the Garmin who had no idea what she was doing. Am only 14 hours in to my PPL training but even I could see how this devolved. That controller was awesome though. Super helpful and patient. Although you could hear his frustration with the 3rd ask re Jennings....
 
This clown posts a bunch of videos, some of them a bit over dramatic.
 
SC777 said:
He was in over his head way before the clouds. He asked for the Jennings info 3 times. Had the wife messing with the Garmin who had no idea what she was doing. Am only 14 hours in to my PPL training but even I could see how this devolved. That controller was awesome though. Super helpful and patient. Although you could hear his frustration with the 3rd ask re Jennings....
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it is easy to sit at 1G and zero kts and think i will never be that guy. in reality a lot of experienced pilots have done this. some are here to tell the story others not so much
 
WannFly said:
it is easy to sit at 1G and zero kts and think i will never be that guy. in reality a lot of experienced pilots have done this. some are here to tell the story others not so much
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Yup, I believe some are prone to things like this out of the gate. For other's I think it just creeps up on you. We are all susceptible. The FAA ADM stuff gives some pretty good tools to keep from falling down the rabbit hole.
 
My flight instructor had words written on the side panel of his aircraft that read, "Don't do anything dumb!" I'm not tossing stones here as I've made a few stupid mistakes over the years (that's another thread). Still, I have a folder on my machine that I keep things in so that I learn from the mistakes of others. Here is an example:

 
WannFly said:
it is easy to sit at 1G and zero kts and think i will never be that guy. in reality a lot of experienced pilots have done this. some are here to tell the story others not so much
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Maybe sitting here at 1G and zero airspeed to observe and learn how to recognize mistakes to avoid or head off when they start to occur gives a better chance of being here later on.
 
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Daleandee said:
My flight instructor had words written on the side panel of his aircraft that read, "Don't do anything dumb!" I'm not tossing stones here as I've made a few stupid mistakes over the years (that's another thread). Still, I have a folder on my machine that I keep things in so that I learn from the mistakes of others. Here is an example:

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Whole lotta stupid there.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Maybe sitting here at 1G and zero airspeed to observe and learn how to recognize mistakes to avoid or head off when they start to occur gives a better chance of being here later on.
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couldnt agree more
 
WannFly said:
it is easy to sit at 1G and zero kts and think i will never be that guy. in reality a lot of experienced pilots have done this. some are here to tell the story others not so much
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Yup. Never say (or even think) "I would never be so stupid." Overconfidence kills.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Yup. Never say (or even think) "I would never be so stupid." Overconfidence kills.
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Man, if I'm ever as slow on the uptake as this guy with so little going on, I hope someone tells me.
 
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