VFR into controlled field.. Who closes flight plan?

Caramon13 said:
@BellyUpFish

Dunno man, this is pretty clear to me:

How do I open and close my VFR flight plans?

To open a flight plan you will need to contact the closest FAA Flight Service Station (FSS). You will find the radio frequency above a VOR frequency box on a sectional chart. To close a flight plan, you can contact FSS by radio or call them on the telephone. The standard phone number is 800/992-7433 (800/WX-BRIEF).

What exactly is unclear about either of those instructions? What says tower will close it for you?
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The question was posed asking why will they not close a VFR flight plan like they close an IFR flight plan. I didn't know the answer, I came here and asked at his behest and therein lies my epic mistake.
 
roncachamp said:
That's not so obvious. A guy can do a lot of international flying without filing a VFR flight plan by going IFR.
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Sure. But if you don't go IFR, you must file VFR to fly international. Flight following is not enough, as far as I know, and that was my point.
 
BellyUpFish said:
The question was posed asking why will they not close a VFR flight plan like they close an IFR flight plan. I didn't know the answer, I came here and asked at his behest and therein lies my epic mistake.
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I don't see that question being asked at all in the first post.
If that question was actually asked in the OP, the tone would have gone much differently.

Instead you have a "CFI" telling people pad information, and you expected butterfly farts and unicorn hearts?

This is where the bad and conflicting information comes from on the internet. PoA pops up on a google search and your first post is the "answer" someone gets.
 
Caramon13 said:
@BellyUpFish

Dunno man, this is pretty clear to me:

How do I open and close my VFR flight plans?

To open a flight plan you will need to contact the closest FAA Flight Service Station (FSS). You will find the radio frequency above a VOR frequency box on a sectional chart. To close a flight plan, you can contact FSS by radio or call them on the telephone. The standard phone number is 800/992-7433 (800/WX-BRIEF).

What exactly is unclear about either of those instructions? What says tower will close it for you?
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Do you know that every article written on the internet is 100% correct or timely? He wanted to ask actual humans who do this stuff daily. He got his good answers, he just has to put up with or ignore all the picking apart of every statement. If you can do that last part this forum is awesome.
 
BellyUpFish said:
I've always flown internationally IFR..
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That's a good option, if your routing and clearance are acceptable. If you do it often enough in busy airspace, the IFR option may cost you more than 30 minutes in some cases, when you include getting the original clearance plus the circuitous routing. Time to spare, go by air. :)
 
BellyUpFish said:
Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Ask the question - you're an idiot.
Don't ask the question - you're an idiot.

I love this place.
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State that you're teaching a friend to fly - later declare that you haven't been an active CFI in over a decade - look like an idiot.
 
EdFred said:
I don't see that question being asked at all in the first post.

If that question was actually asked in the OP, the tone would have gone much differently.
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I keep forgetting whom I'm dealing with here.

The question was asked in real time having a face to face discussion.

"I don't know." Was my answer - in person.

"We could ask POA." Says question asker - in person.

He literally will not post here to avoid this very thing. Uber lurker. I even typed that in my original post and he asked me not to post that, so deleted it because and I quote "they will get distracted by that comment and won't even answer the question."

But it is what it is. If I could delete this whole thing, I gladly would.

I can only hope you guys aren't all this friendly at a fly-in....
 
EdFred said:
PoA pops up on a google search and your first post is the "answer" someone gets.
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So you're an admin right? Delete it..

Do it for the kids and the unicorn farts!
 
exncsurfer said:
Do you know that every article written on the internet is 100% correct or timely? He wanted to ask actual humans who do this stuff daily. He got his good answers, he just has to put up with or ignore all the picking apart of every statement. If you can do that last part this forum is awesome.
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It drives me up the wall - the last part.

It's all certain individuals here seem to want to do.

It's a constant flop contest and nothing more among the "regular" contestants.
 
roncachamp said:
But that was not what you wrote.
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But it was what I meant. :)
Here is what I wrote:
"You guys who don't file VFR flight plans obviously don't fly international a lot. If you did, you'd be filing a VFR flight plan whenever you cross the border under VFR."

Not sure if there is more than one way to understand it...
 
exncsurfer said:
Do you know that every article written on the internet is 100% correct or timely? He wanted to ask actual humans who do this stuff daily. He got his good answers, he just has to put up with or ignore all the picking apart of every statement. If you can do that last part this forum is awesome.
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Fine, how's this for an article?

AIM:
5−1−14. Closing VFR/DVFR Flight Plans A pilot is responsible for ensuring that his/her VFR or DVFR flight plan is canceled. You should close your flight plan with the nearest FSS, or if one is not available, you may request any ATC facility to relay your cancellation to the FSS. Control towers do not automatically close VFR or DVFR flight plans since they do not know if a particular VFR aircraft is on a flight plan. If you fail to report or cancel your flight plan within 1/2 hour after your ETA, search and rescue procedures are started.

The fact is, a two second search could have answered his question and if not, he could have opened the AIM and figured it out. In neither case did he do that. He just decided to fly and "hope" the plan would be handled like anything else.

It wasn't and rather than again, doing research, he wanted to come on here and ask the question. To which most everyone has already responded. Now he seems taken aback that not everyone shares his opinion to "fly and hope he got it right".
 
exncsurfer said:
Do you know that every article written on the internet is 100% correct or timely? He wanted to ask actual humans who do this stuff daily. He got his good answers, he just has to put up with or ignore all the picking apart of every statement. If you can do that last part this forum is awesome.
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As a CFI he should know the answer, it's basic student pilot XC training. As evident by all the responses, non CFIs as well, everyone else knows this. He asked and got opinions and disbelief he doesn't know the answer himself. Then he tries to make excuses about why he didn't know the answer. Most CFIs would research the answer on their own but it is easier to ask here, as long as you're prepared for what's to come. :D
 
Caramon13 said:
He just decided to fly and "hope" the plan would be handled like anything else.

It wasn't and rather than again, doing research, he wanted to come on here and ask the question. To which most everyone has already responded. Now he seems taken aback that not everyone shares his opinion to "fly and hope he got it right".
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Who decided to fly and hope?

Man, for a guy who "learned not to assume" you sure are doing a lot of it.
 
You can probably report your original post and ask it to be deleted so there's no confusion if someone else stumbles on this thread.
 
EdFred said:
You can probably report your original post and ask it to be deleted so there's no confusion if someone else stumbles on this thread.
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I can only hope...
 
Caramon13 said:
Yes, you are correct, I apologize I mis-read the original post. You haven't flown yet.
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Man, you're so caught up in trying to tell me how wrong I am you can't even read the origal post correctly. LOL

Your first post in this thread was a belittling little number about assumptions and how not to make them and yet, you continually make them in each post you make.

Read it again. I won't be flying. I'm the idiot non-practicing CFI. The student will be flying. ;)
 
roncachamp said:
Landing at a towered field in the US does not automatically close a VFR flight plan. IFR flight plans are closed automatically because tower personnel observed you land at your clearance limit. VFR flight plans are managed by FSS, they can't know that you've arrived without being told and the tower doesn't know what VFR aircraft have filed flight plans.

Flight following is terminated when the radar controller advises "radar service terminated" or upon landing at a towered field with radar service.
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Good point. While you are still getting Radar Traffic Advisories, what "flight following" really is, ATC is required to initiate the SAR system by notifying the RCC if they lose you. Radar service can be terminated, and IS routinely terminated for many reasons. So using Traffic Advisories, commonly known as Flight Following is not a substitute for a Flight Plan. If you want someone to come looking for you in a timely manner if you don't make it to your destination do not rely on FF.
 
BellyUpFish said:
The question was posed asking why will they not close a VFR flight plan like they close an IFR flight plan. I didn't know the answer, I came here and asked at his behest and therein lies my epic mistake.
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Question: What must a control tower do to close an IFR flight plan?

Answer: Nothing.

There is no action needed, no computer input or phone call must be made. The ATC system knows you've arrived safely at your destination because the control tower, a part of that system, observed you do that. The control tower is the last facility in the information chain. If the tower had received information on an IFR arrival but never heard from that aircraft it would have to take some action. If the arrival missed an approach the tower would have to call the facility providing approach control services. A safe IFR arrival at a towered destination requires no action be taken with regard to the flight plan.

Different story with a VFR flight plan. VFR flight plans are the purview of FSS and FSS can't observe your safe landing at any airport. ATC receives no information on VFR flight plans, the only way the tower would know if you're on a VFR flight plan is for you to say so.
 
RotorDude said:
But it was what I meant. :)
Here is what I wrote:
"You guys who don't file VFR flight plans obviously don't fly international a lot. If you did, you'd be filing a VFR flight plan whenever you cross the border under VFR."

Not sure if there is more than one way to understand it...
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I don't think there is.
 
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roncachamp said:
Maybe. The radar controller must initiate a search in the event of an unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications. If a few calls go unanswered but the controller still has radar contact he might just decide the pilot no longer wanted radar services.
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Good point again. This happens. If you want someone to come looking for you do not rely on FF.
 
Caramon13 said:
Fine, how's this for an article?

AIM:
5−1−14. Closing VFR/DVFR Flight Plans A pilot is responsible for ensuring that his/her VFR or DVFR flight plan is canceled. You should close your flight plan with the nearest FSS, or if one is not available, you may request any ATC facility to relay your cancellation to the FSS. Control towers do not automatically close VFR or DVFR flight plans since they do not know if a particular VFR aircraft is on a flight plan. If you fail to report or cancel your flight plan within 1/2 hour after your ETA, search and rescue procedures are started.

The fact is, a two second search could have answered his question and if not, he could have opened the AIM and figured it out. In neither case did he do that. He just decided to fly and "hope" the plan would be handled like anything else.

It wasn't and rather than again, doing research, he wanted to come on here and ask the question. To which most everyone has already responded. Now he seems taken aback that not everyone shares his opinion to "fly and hope he got it right".
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Right, and if everyone did a 2 second search for every question, we wouldn't need a forum. People wouldn't have to see other peoples questions get answered by knowledgeable(possibly) humans and learn something that they didn't seek out specifically.
 
exncsurfer said:
Right, and if everyone did a 2 second search for every question, we wouldn't need a forum. People wouldn't have to see other peoples questions get answered by knowledgeable(possibly) humans and learn something that they didn't seek out specifically.
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1abdb91a46b2207370a9e168b0888d12.jpg


And with that, I appreciate the "help." You've helped a wandering student and corrected a terrible CFI.

I'm out, wish my student luck, he's reading. ;)

Thanks for the memories guys.

8e08a44c1636859f5a898c73d6967c5d.jpg
 
exncsurfer said:
Right, and if everyone did a 2 second search for every question, we wouldn't need a forum. People wouldn't have to see other peoples questions get answered by knowledgeable(possibly) humans and learn something that they didn't seek out specifically.
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Right, exactly :). But this isn't some complex hypothetical situation that requires people to interpret things and give a "human" response based on experience. It's an answer based on rote knowledge that @BellyUpFish (or really any other CFI or pilot) should already know.
 
BellyUpFish said:
1abdb91a46b2207370a9e168b0888d12.jpg


And with that, I appreciate the "help." You've helped a wandering student and corrected a terrible CFI.

I'm out, wish my student luck, he's reading. ;)

Thanks for the memories guys.

8e08a44c1636859f5a898c73d6967c5d.jpg
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Sorry but I have to laugh at this. You spent more time posting these pics and you could have googled the AIM or any other source for your answer in perhaps less time. :)
 
RotorDude said:
I fly into Canada quite a bit, and file VFR whenever the weather is decent and expected IFR clearance or routing too burdensome. In that case, going into Canada, the tower always automatically cancels the VFR flight plan. Entering the States, the tower does it too without much ado, but it might be as a courtesy, as they've never complained.
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I believe the cross border DVFR flight plans are a different animal.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Ask the question - you're an idiot.
Don't ask the question - you're an idiot.

I love this place.
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The same people will complain on how the red board is 'hostile' ;)
 
Caramon13 said:
Right, exactly :). But this isn't some complex hypothetical situation that requires people to interpret things and give a "human" response based on experience. It's an answer based on rote knowledge that @BellyUpFish (or really any other CFI or pilot) should already know.
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Oh, so only questions that require interpretation are fit to be asked.

I have asked a tower before to close a VFR flight plan for me and they did. FSS is just a button push away for him and he was probably bored. Lots of undocumented procedures out there in the wild world of aviation.
 
I know I will be required (by law) to file at least 4 of them this summer.
 
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