VFR into controlled field.. Who closes flight plan?

EdFred said:
I know I will be required (by law) to file at least 4 of them this summer.
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Yeah. There are some cases where a VFR flight plan serves a purpose other than SAR and are required for security purposes. I suppose your're going to be flying around DC
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. There are some cases where a VFR flight plan serves a purpose other than SAR and are required for security purposes. I suppose your're going to be flying around DC
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Nope. Through Canadia to Alaska.
 
luvflyin said:
I thought Canada was on our side. LOL
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Still got that pesky border crossing flight plan requirement. Gotta figure out exactly how that works from Whitehorse to Northway as I don't think there's much in the way of radio/radar coverage up that way.
 
I've forgotten to close a VFR flight plan after landing at a controlled field. Flight service called the tower and confirmed I landed safely and closed the plan. I remembered an hour later and called flight service, they informed me I was all set thanks to the tower having a good memory and gave me a friendly reminder to try setting a reminder alarm on my phone next time.

Obviously still my responsibility but they will try to make it easier on everyone if possible.
 
roncachamp said:
Maybe. The radar controller must initiate a search in the event of an unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications. If a few calls go unanswered but the controller still has radar contact he might just decide the pilot no longer wanted radar services.
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If the controller still has radar contact and you're still in the air moving towards your destination there's no real need to send out SAR. You're in the air, and presumably not squawking 7700. However if you suddenly disappear from the scope and don't respond on the radio they are gonna be a lot quicker to start looking than flight service, who will be waiting until after your planned ETA. That's why I said FF is a better tool than a VFR flight plan in terms of emergency response.
 
StinkBug said:
If the controller still has radar contact and you're still in the air moving towards your destination there's no real need to send out SAR. You're in the air, and presumably not squawking 7700. However if you suddenly disappear from the scope and don't respond on the radio they are gonna be a lot quicker to start looking than flight service, who will be waiting until after your planned ETA. That's why I said FF is a better tool than a VFR flight plan in terms of emergency response.
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Good point. But FF is offered on an as available basis. If FF calling SAR is your emergency plan, what do you do when RADAR services are terminated halfway through your flight?
 
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AIM
5−1−14. Closing VFR/DVFR Flight Plans
A pilot is responsible for ensuring that his/her VFR or
DVFR flight plan is canceled. You should close your
flight plan with the nearest FSS, or if one is not
available, you may request any ATC facility to relay
your cancellation to the FSS. Control towers do not
automatically close VFR or DVFR flight plans since
they do not know if a particular VFR aircraft is on a
flight plan. If you fail to report or cancel your flight
plan within 1/2 hour after your ETA, search and rescue
procedures are started.
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Lindberg said:
Good point. But FF is offered on an as available basis. If FF calling SAR is your emergency plan, what do you do when RADAR services are terminated halfway through your flight?
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I'd like to know how many people have actually experienced this. I primarily fly in some of the busiest airspace in the US and I've had to wait to get FF initiated a couple times, but NEVER have I been cut off midway to my destination once flight following has been started. If I were dropped I'd grab the next sector and get it started again, but that's never been necessary. I've also never been denied flight following, at worst it's been "call back in 5 minutes"

Getting things set up is the most time consuming part for ATC, getting all your info put down. Once it's set up if anything you're making things easier for them as they know who you are, where you're going and can give you instructions if there's a conflict.
 
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StinkBug said:
If the controller still has radar contact and you're still in the air moving towards your destination there's no real need to send out SAR. You're in the air, and presumably not squawking 7700. However if you suddenly disappear from the scope and don't respond on the radio they are gonna be a lot quicker to start looking than flight service, who will be waiting until after your planned ETA. That's why I said FF is a better tool than a VFR flight plan in terms of emergency response.
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Hence the "maybe". Note that it's an unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications. If you disappear from the scope where aircraft routinely drop off the scope the requirement to initiate a search does not kick in.
 
And if you drop off in an area where that is expected, they also know where and roughly when you're expected to pop up again where coverage is better. If you don't......start looking. Still faster than flight service.
 
StinkBug said:
And if you drop off in an area where that is expected, they also know where and roughly when you're expected to pop up again where coverage is better. If you don't......start looking. Still faster than flight service.
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If you drop off in an area where that is expected and they call you to tell you radar contact lost and you don't respond there's no requirement for that controller to initiate a search. He might just assume another VFR pilot has left the frequency without saying bye-bye, that's common. That you will pop up again on another controller's scope is irrelevant, that controller may not know anything about you.
 
StinkBug said:
I'd like to know how many people have actually experienced this. I primarily fly in some of the busiest airspace in the US and I've had to wait to get FF initiated a couple times, but NEVER have I been cut off midway to my destination once flight following has been started. If I were dropped I'd grab the next sector and get it started again, but that's never been necessary. I've also never been denied flight following, at worst it's been "call back in 5 minutes"
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I've had FF cut off midway to a destination a time or three, but like you said, I just picked up with the next controller and kept on moving. As best I remember it went something along the lines of "Radar services terminated, squawk 1200.. Might try Xyz on Lmnop for further flight following.."

I can't think of a time where it was ended and the next guy didn't pick it up..
 
StinkBug said:
If the controller still has radar contact and you're still in the air moving towards your destination there's no real need to send out SAR. You're in the air, and presumably not squawking 7700. However if you suddenly disappear from the scope and don't respond on the radio they are gonna be a lot quicker to start looking than flight service, who will be waiting until after your planned ETA. That's why I said FF is a better tool than a VFR flight plan in terms of emergency response.
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The system will most likely be put into motion sooner if you disappear while getting Radar service. That can make it a better tool than a flight plan IF you continue to get that service AND the controller initiates the call to the RCC. Think twice about relying on this if you want someone to come looking for you.
 
StinkBug said:
I'd like to know how many people have actually experienced this. I primarily fly in some of the busiest airspace in the US and I've had to wait to get FF initiated a couple times, but NEVER have I been cut off midway to my destination once flight following has been started. If I were dropped I'd grab the next sector and get it started again, but that's never been necessary. I've also never been denied flight following, at worst it's been "call back in 5 minutes"

Getting things set up is the most time consuming part for ATC, getting all your info put down. Once it's set up if anything you're making things easier for them as they know who you are, where you're going and can give you instructions if there's a conflict.
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I've lost flight following AND radio contact in busy airspace. Terrain shadowing and low altitudes can do that. There are several dead spots around Vallejo and Benicia. With an Alert area just east of there, and a busy Class D (Concord) nearby. I even lost radio contact once inside the Oakland Class C, at 1000 AGL over the East Bay hills. It came back after a minute or so.

When this happens, it's unmistakeable. You can hear all the read backs from other airplanes, but none of the instructions.
 
Theboys said:
If you don't close it they will start calling to locate you pretty shortly. Sometimes even when you do:)
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Yep. We were all at an HOA meeting and upon return my house guest tells me:

CHIP: The FAA called.
ME: What did they want.
CHIP: I don't know, I didn't answer.
ME: How do you know it was the FAA?
CHIP: It was on the caller ID.

It turns out one of our non-resident property owners had flown in and neglected to close his flight plan. Of course, that's not nearly as daunting as when you get a call from homeland security.
 
flyingron said:
Yep. We were all at an HOA meeting and upon return my house guest tells me:

CHIP: The FAA called.
ME: What did they want.
CHIP: I don't know, I didn't answer.
ME: How do you know it was the FAA?
CHIP: It was on the caller ID.

It turns out one of our non-resident property owners had flown in and neglected to close his flight plan. Of course, that's not nearly as daunting as when you get a call from homeland security.
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I've gotten the Homeland Security call. I was less than helpful when I talked with them.
 
StinkBug said:
I'd like to know how many people have actually experienced this. I primarily fly in some of the busiest airspace in the US and I've had to wait to get FF initiated a couple times, but NEVER have I been cut off midway to my destination once flight following has been started. If I were dropped I'd grab the next sector and get it started again, but that's never been necessary. I've also never been denied flight following, at worst it's been "call back in 5 minutes"

Getting things set up is the most time consuming part for ATC, getting all your info put down. Once it's set up if anything you're making things easier for them as they know who you are, where you're going and can give you instructions if there's a conflict.
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Many times. It's usually Radar services are terminated because Radar contact is lost. That usually happens in areas where it is going to be awhile before getting back in Radar coverage. These are usually areas where if you go down it may not be seen by someone on the ground who can call 911 and report it. Happens out West a lot in areas where you really don't want spend an extra night out in the boonies waiting for someone to come find you because the SAR system got activated later rather than sooner. These are areas where good old fashioned VFR position reports can be the difference between an extra night out there waiting for medical assistance. Position reports narrow down the search area.

The requirement for ATC to notify the RCC when Radio and Radar contact has been lost on an aircraft hasn't always been there. It is now and it is written in blood. CAP dudes, feel free to chime in here.
 
There are some statistics flying around about mean time to rescue. Can be days if no contact, down to hours on an IFR flight plan. Flight following is better than a VFR flight plan, but it's not clear how much of that is due to the downed plane not being near the planned track. It's not as good as an IFR flight plan. Not clear why.

If you do file a flight plan, please follow it, or a big hunk of its utility is lost. Most searches without an ELT will start with the planned route, or last known position if there is one.

There is nothing preventing you from a VFR flight plan AND flight following. I'll do that on all VFR CAP flights over 50 miles ('cause it's required), or any VFR flight over high terrain or remote areas. Flight following is not always successful, and there are places where it just ain't gonna happen.
 
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Unless you're flying VFR internationally why on earth would you want to file a VFR flight plan?

Just get flight following, or if you're remote with no services avaliable bring a spot or spidertrax and let responsible people know, I'd trust that much more than filing VFR with lockmart when it comes to saving my bacon should I never arrive.




BellyUpFish said:
I'm not going to deny I should have known, sure I should have and I'll take the beating for it, I'm a big boy, I can take it. This place is full of guys chomping at the bit to show someone else they're stupid.

It's just kind of sad that this is what most conversations on this message board turn into. A contest of who knows the most, which is why my friend/student doesn't post here. He reads plenty, but doesn't post. He's not here for the flop contest, he's here trying to learn.

We were discussing the subject tonight and I told him I wasn't 100% sure how the tower would handle a VFR flight plan arrival, I assumed they would handle it as they do IFR, 99.9% of my flying has been either IFR or VFR with flight following, as previously stated, I can only remember 1 VFR flight plan I've ever filed, I haven't operated in the VFR world.

Oh well, let me have it. LOL
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Same boat here, as a IFR pilot you'd easily default to thinking the tower would close. No shame in asking, I'm a semi active CFI and full time pilot, I've filed a VFR flight plan ONCE, and that was as a non IFR PPL flying into Canada when I was building hours.
 
Even satellites have shadows, particularly at high latitude around terrain. Geostationary satellites are necessarily over the equator.

Having someone on the ground monitor ETA is a good precaution, but it is not exclusive of filing a flight plan.
 
StinkBug said:
I'd like to know how many people have actually experienced this. I primarily fly in some of the busiest airspace in the US and I've had to wait to get FF initiated a couple times, but NEVER have I been cut off midway to my destination ...
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I have. In fact, flying low level VFR in Alaska for 30+ years, FF was useful mostly near Anchorage. Radar coverage is getting better now, but there are still huge gaps everywhere at lower levels. For search and rescue alerts I would either give a very detailed route with ETA(s) to someone I trusted to respond if I was late, or file a VFR flight plan. The SAR response folks much prefer if you have a flight plan filed if something goes wrong, because they have an aircraft in their system with a destination and ETA. If it doesn't arrive, they call the contact numbers on the flight plan and the SAR wheels start turning. With no flight plan, your wife or buddy is calling, trying to find someone to explain the situation. The first question they ask is: is there a flight plan on file? I experienced this first hand a couple of years ago when my brother caught a soft spot on a remote beach landing in Prince William Sound. My phone # was on his VFR flight plan. I already knew he was late when the Alaska Air Nat'l Guard called me.
 
mscard88 said:
Because it doesn't cost anything and w/ position reports works well. I teach this and using FF simultaneously. IMO.
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And the benefits of filing the VFR flight plan are ...?
 
James331 said:
Unless you're flying VFR internationally why on earth would you want to file a VFR flight plan?

Just get flight following, or if you're remote with no services avaliable bring a spot or spidertrax and let responsible people know, I'd trust that much more than filing VFR with lockmart when it comes to saving my bacon should I never arrive.

Same boat here, as a IFR pilot you'd easily default to thinking the tower would close. No shame in asking, I'm a semi active CFI and full time pilot, I've filed a VFR flight plan ONCE, and that was as a non IFR PPL flying into Canada when I was building hours.
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Yep, I'm in the same boat. Sure, I should have known and I won't deny that one bit, but in keeping with modern societal tones, the system failed me. I've passed too many checkrides without being quizzed on this essential piece of knowledge to have made it "this far." It's a flawed system. ;)
 
EdFred said:
Solely the S&R thing, no other reason - (DC and border crossings notwithstanding)
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I guess I just don't see that being a huge benefit.

If you're experiencing an emergency that is about to put you down off field a 121.5 call would be, IMO, much more beneficial. But of course that assumes someone hears it and you're able to give pertinent info during the call.
 
EdFred said:
Solely the S&R thing, no other reason - (DC and border crossings notwithstanding)
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And the DC thing is not really a VFR flight plan, you're sposed to file it as a IFR plan even if you're VFR.
 
BellyUpFish said:
I guess I just don't see that being a huge benefit.

If you're experiencing an emergency that is about to put you down off field a 121.5 call would be, IMO, much more beneficial. But of course that assumes someone hears it and you're able to give pertinent info during the call.
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It is a huge benefit if you need S&R services. If you are traveling and/or landing in areas with spotty radar services, most likely the line-of-sight radio comms are spotty, as well. In XC bush flying you need either: a VFR flight plan, or, an "agent" who knows your route and ETAs and knows what to do if you are overdue, or, a sat phone/sat tracker device with SOS functions.... I forgot, a 406Mhz ELT is also very good to have. My recently purchased Grumman does not...
 
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MAKG1 said:
There are some statistics flying around about mean time to rescue. Can be days if no contact, down to hours on an IFR flight plan.
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Or ATC can just forget about you forever. There was a guy on an IFR approach (not cancelled) a while back. He even told ATC he was likely going to be back on the missed because the reported weather was bad. He crashed near the airport but ATC never responded.

Flight following is better than a VFR flight plan, but it's not clear how much of that is due to the downed plane not being near the planned track. It's not as good as an IFR flight plan. Not clear why.
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I don't know what is the basis for any of these statements. FF is fine if you ARE getting services and you disappear unexpectedly (or manage to get the mayday out). A VFR Flight Plan at least puts a time limit on it.
 
mscard88 said:
Wellll beings you're not familiar with closing flight plans.... :rolleyes:

Sorry you left it out there! ;)
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No need to apologize, like I said I'm a big boy, I can take the heat.

Actually, I'm fairly familiar with closing flight plans, I was just not sure as to whether a control tower would close a VFR plan automatically.

I do however, thanks to many kind individuals such as yourself, know much more than I ever anticipated or need to know about closing a VFR flight plan now. Learning has occurred. Thank you, sincerely.

That said, If I'm filing, it'll be IFR regardless if it's CAVU or 002OVC and I'll either cancel with the field in sight, let the tower do it or call them on the ground. ;)
 
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MAKG1 said:
There are some statistics flying around about mean time to rescue. Can be days if no contact, down to hours on an IFR flight plan. Flight following is better than a VFR flight plan, but it's not clear how much of that is due to the downed plane not being near the planned track. It's not as good as an IFR flight plan. Not clear why.

If you do file a flight plan, please follow it, or a big hunk of its utility is lost. Most searches without an ELT will start with the planned route, or last known position if there is one.

There is nothing preventing you from a VFR flight plan AND flight following. I'll do that on all VFR CAP flights over 50 miles ('cause it's required), or any VFR flight over high terrain or remote areas. Flight following is not always successful, and there are places where it just ain't gonna happen.
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Yep. Do BOTH. So often I hear the question asked asked "FF or FP" as if they are two different ways of doing something. They are two different things. Granted, Radar Traffic Advisories, commonly called Flight Following does offer a benefit that duplicates what a Flight Plan offers, initiation of the SAR system. But it only offers that while you are getting it and you can not be getting it anymore at the drop of a hat. A huge benefit to getting flight following is narrowing down the search area. Once you have been identified on Radar your target can be tracked even after Radar service is terminated and you change your beacon code to 1200. This of course doesn't help much if you go out of Radar coverage for very long.
 
BellyUpFish said:
That said, If I'm filing, it'll be IFR regardless if it's CAVU or 020OVC and I'll either cancel with the field in sight, let the tower do it or call them on the ground. ;)
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Benefit of IFR flight plan you don't have to worry as much as those damn TFRs in addition to everything else.
 
mscard88 said:
Benefit of IFR flight plan you don't have to worry as much as those damn TFRs in addition to everything else.
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I'd love to say something witty like "What's a TFR" but someone here might be likely to experience a coronary, so I'll say "worry as much" is relative...
 
mscard88 said:
Uh oh now you did it! ;)
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No really, what's a TFR? ;)

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