VFR Flight Plans, useless or not?

I think if you're expected on the other end flight plans are redundant. If you're flying most places in the East they're unnecessary, someone will probably see or hear you come down. I think they're a really good idea if you're flying over the less populated regions of the nation, where you're not likely to be seen trying to land in hostile terrain. I don't think I've filed one this century.
 
Eric Gleason said:
SAR, or someone starts making calls? AFRCC has their procedures and regulations, and when I was last active (5 years ago) those procedures did not include starting a search until they'd called the pilot, their home, the destination airport, and the home airport. VFR flight plan gets a search started in about 24 hours vs. about 48-72 hours if there's no flight plan.

I'm talking strictly about an overdue aircraft on a VFR flight plan. An active ELT or plane going off of radar unexpectedly are different triggers for a search.

I say this as someone who's taken the AFRCC SAR course and run countless searches from my living and mission bases.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I’ll take they send the dogs out tomorrow over the day after tomorrow
 
steingar said:
I think if you're expected on the other end flight plans are redundant. If you're flying most places in the East they're unnecessary, someone will probably see or hear you come down. I think they're a really good idea if you're flying over the less populated regions of the nation, where you're not likely to be seen trying to land in hostile terrain. I don't think I've filed one this century.
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You'd think, but it's not true. The situation I know of, the wife called 911 when the pilot was about 45 minutes overdue and she could not reach him. 911 put out a BOLO (be on the lookout) and then considered the issue closed. Morning came and nothing had been resolved. SAR did not get involved until the wife followed up with the police early the next morning. It's not clear to me, but it might have been because of 121.5 ELT signals being reported by the airlines too. Nearly 9 hours had passed and nobody had started searching.

A flight plan pushes the escalation into aviation channels as opposed to LEO channels.
 
Between my ResQlink, and my nervous nellie wife who demands regular status updates via texts and that I file IFR for everything so that she can track me on Flightaware, I'm pretty well covered.

If I was going to be flying over inhospitable terrain, without the aforementioned items, I'd file a VFR flight plan. (Actually, I'd probably file an IFR flight plan, but you get my drift.)
 
mtuomi said:
24 hours? Thankfully not. The difference between flight plan and no flight plan SAR is 30 minutes. With flight plan, it starts at 30 minutes overdue, without, it's 1 hour assuming a "reliable source" gives a report about it. You realize "someone starts making calls" _IS_ part of SAR. Uncertainty starts after 30min. Uncertainty is when they start calling pilot, the airport FBO etc, and this is the first phase of SAR.

The process starts at 30 minutes after ETA. It's all in ICAO Annex 12 too.
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Sure, the bureaucratic part of SAR technically starts 30 minutes after you're overdue, but it's misleading to tell pilots that a search is starting half an hour after your ETA. When you say that people think we're mustering the troops right away, and we're not. 24 hours before something besides a phone call happens unless there's an ELT. Even then, it takes several hours.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Sure, the bureaucratic part of SAR technically starts 30 minutes after you're overdue, but it's misleading to tell pilots that a search is starting half an hour after your ETA. When you say that people think we're mustering the troops right away, and we're not. 24 hours before something besides a phone call happens unless there's an ELT. Even then, it takes several hours.
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Well then it’s a true useless. If I crashed and the ELT was damaged and I am lying in a corn field unconscious for 24 hrs before they start looking I am most likely dead already.

In my case it was my first solo XC, I called them to close the plan and was just little over 30 mins, they gave a lecture on how right at 30 mins they activated their SAR protocol, called tower and found my AC.
 
with all the data available to ATC with ADSB-out and with the capabilities and accuracy of GPS, wouldn't it be nice if a record was created based on the flightplan entered in a GPS, is then automatically activated, tracked and then closed when the airplane has arrived at the last airport ? Just spit-ball'n here....
 
mtuomi said:
Exactly Dave. If I'm going to crash, I want to crash as far from CAP as ever possible to maximize the chance of being found.
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I know of about 4000 people who might disagree with you.

500_savesbyyearhed.png

https://www.cap.news/search--rescue-saves-surpass-century-mark-for-fiscal-2017/
 
Why file a VFR flight plan? The better question is how long after you crash do you want to wait before someone starts looking for you? The ELT system does not always work. Your friends or family do they know your route of flight, when you left, how much fuel, etc. or who to call? So it takes a few days what does it matter while you are cold, hungry, injured...

ADSB isn't a sure fire answer either because it is an ATC system. I've heard no discussion about it doing any alerting when VFR traffic disappears unless there was a traffic conflict. Could this be added sure but...
 
WannFly said:
Well then it’s a true useless. If I crashed and the ELT was damaged and I am lying in a corn field unconscious for 24 hrs before they start looking I am most likely dead already.
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Think of a less extreme scenario: you've crashed in the wilderness, the ELT is broken, and either you're injured or civilization is too far to travel on foot. This is a survivable scenario, but you're going to need to wait for help. If you filed and flew your flight plan, this gives everyone a much better starting point for the search. A visual search will still probably take a while to find you, but if you're reasonably visible you will be found.

Now consider a different scenario: You're using flight following but don't file. You descend below radar coverage without telling anybody. It's not totally out of the ordinary, so you're depending on a controller to decide something is amiss and to start the search process. Sometimes they get worried about you, sometimes they don't. Maybe it happened during a shift change and nobody noticed. Since you're not overdue, there's nothing in the system to trigger the search process. Someone expecting you calls the police, but they're not sure how to handle it or who to call, so if they get any attention it's a process that's slow to start.

Leaving your ETA and course info with someone on the ground is a pretty good substitute for a VFR flight plan, but if you do go missing it will take longer to get someone out in the field looking for you.
 
Take a look at Google earth, as opposed to a Sectional - most of the "East" is forest, mountains, hills, farmland. . .huge chunks where you might see buildings from the air, but nobody much is gonna notice a small GA plane going in. NC, GA, PA, NY, MA, SC, WV, MD, TN, KY, etc., just massive areas no one is likely to notice you, even if you "feel" close to cvilization.

I don't file VFR, or use FF when VFR, but am aware finding me in the East wouldn't be massively easier than out west.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Think of a less extreme scenario: you've crashed in the wilderness, the ELT is broken, and either you're injured or civilization is too far to travel on foot. This is a survivable scenario, but you're going to need to wait for help. If you filed and flew your flight plan, this gives everyone a much better starting point for the search. A visual search will still probably take a while to find you, but if you're reasonably visible you will be found.

Now consider a different scenario: You're using flight following but don't file. You descend below radar coverage without telling anybody. It's not totally out of the ordinary, so you're depending on a controller to decide something is amiss and to start the search process. Sometimes they get worried about you, sometimes they don't. Maybe it happened during a shift change and nobody noticed. Since you're not overdue, there's nothing in the system to trigger the search process. Someone expecting you calls the police, but they're not sure how to handle it or who to call, so if they get any attention it's a process that's slow to start.

Leaving your ETA and course info with someone on the ground is a pretty good substitute for a VFR flight plan, but if you do go missing it will take longer to get someone out in the field looking for you.
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There’s no, “sometimes they get worried about you and sometimes they don’t” in your scenario. Their directive is clear, they lose radar and comms on an aircraft during FF, it is an emergency and an ALNOT is to be issued immediately.
 
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This is a portion of the 1800wxbrief page about SAR:

"For flights within the Leidos Flight Service area (CONUS, HAWAII, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, and Guam), the SE-SAR service will monitor your position reports sent by the service providers of the Position Reporting and Communications Devices you select below.

Where supported by your device, when no movement is detected or when an emergency signal is received, this service will initiate Search and Rescue operations and send alert messages to the Position Reporting and Communications Devices, Text Message Phone Numbers, and Email Addresses you select below."
FlySince9 said:
with all the data available to ATC with ADSB-out and with the capabilities and accuracy of GPS, wouldn't it be nice if a record was created based on the flightplan entered in a GPS, is then automatically activated, tracked and then closed when the airplane has arrived at the last airport ? Just spit-ball'n here....
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One more time...1800wxbrdief.

Bob
 
Sinistar said:
So looking just at last year (2017) the number indicates 101 saves. CAP saves include events outside aviation (which is awesome). But for this thread, I am wondering if even 1 save was from a expired VFR flight plan. Or across all those years, how many specifically were for expired VFR flight plans.
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CAP can’t claim lives saved anymore than I can flying in EMS. Some are honest to god saves while others would have been fine on their own.
 
Sinistar said:
So looking just at last year (2017) the number indicates 101 saves. CAP saves include events outside aviation (which is awesome). But for this thread, I am wondering if even 1 save was from a expired VFR flight plan. Or across all those years, how many specifically were for expired VFR flight plans.
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Well, I guess the nice thing about having insufficiently-detailed data is that it leaves us free to believe whatever we want to believe. ;)
 
Surveillance-Enhanced Search and Rescue
SE-SAR allows Flight Service personnel to initiate Search and Rescue procedures for VFR flights much earlier than with traditional procedures and with a greatly reduced search area.

Traditional Search and Rescue procedures for VFR flights are triggered when a flight is overdue at the destination location by 30 minutes. The earlier in a flight an accident occurs, the longer the delay until Flight Service personnel are alerted to a problem. Further, because Flight Service rarely receives verbal position reports for VFR flights, the search area can include the entire route of flight.


Leidos has teamed with multiple partners to provide automated position monitoring for VFR flights. Using satellite communications and eventually ADS-B-out, periodic position reports are generated on the aircraft and forwarded to Flight Service. The automation system detects if an aircraft stops moving, stops sending position reports, or if the pilot sends an SOS signal. In each of these situations, Flight Service personnel are alerted and can begin procedures immediately. In addition, they have access to the position history for the flight. This allows everyone involved in the search to focus on the right geographic area, greatly reducing the time to reach survivors.

See our Partners page for a list of vendors participating in SE-SAR.

Surveillance-Enhanced Search and Rescue (SE-SAR) is one of several free services Leidos has introduced in Flight Service to improve General Aviation safety.
 
If you’re really worried about being found, a Personal Locator Beacon is the best investment you can make. Usable for other purposes like hiking as well.
 
denverpilot said:
But what if you dial the phone number?
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Oh lord I dialed it and it appears to be an automated system to either sell an AARP membership or some other scam.

“Are you or someone in your household fifty years of age or older?”
 
bobmrg said:
This is a portion of the 1800wxbrief page about SAR:

"For flights within the Leidos Flight Service area (CONUS, HAWAII, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, and Guam), the SE-SAR service will monitor your position reports sent by the service providers of the Position Reporting and Communications Devices you select below.

Where supported by your device, when no movement is detected or when an emergency signal is received, this service will initiate Search and Rescue operations and send alert messages to the Position Reporting and Communications Devices, Text Message Phone Numbers, and Email Addresses you select below."



One more time...1800wxbrdief.

Bob
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I've not seen that, I'll check it out, but I'm assuming it won't work if you don't physically, activate your flight plan... My thought was of a totally autonomous system that automatically files the flight plan that is active in you GPS as soon as you start down the runway...
 
Eric Gleason said:
Flight plans are moderately helpful if you are overdue. They get the SAR process started faster,
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See below ...

bflynn said:
A flight plan pushes the escalation into aviation channels as opposed to LEO channels.
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Flew El Paso to Carlsbad NM a couple of years ago. FSS would not close in the air and told me to call to close on the ground, which was annoying but I did (they indicated they didn't want to close, and if I balled it up on approach it would appear I arrived). Well, OK ....

Next morning for the return trip, I called to OPEN the return leg. FSS said my previous FLT PLN was still open. I asked why I didn't have a phone call, or better yet SAR out looking ... they paused, indicated my current return plan was open, the hung up:confused::eek::mad:

I don't depend 100% on flight plans after that event. (See below)

Jon Caples said:
Why file a VFR flight plan? The better question is how long after you crash do you want to wait before someone starts looking for you? The ELT system does not always work. Your friends or family do they know your route of flight, when you left, how much fuel, etc. or who to call? So it takes a few days what does it matter while you are cold, hungry, injured...
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I still open and close flight plans. Only now I text my exact route to my wife's or son's phone ... they don't understand the waypoints, but if I'm late they'll find someone who does. ELT available - PLB not used any longer.
 
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Velocity173 said:
FSS said my previous FLT PLN was still open.
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So because you didn't close your flight plan and then didn't get woken up, you assumed they didn't know you landed? What it means you didn't do your part and close it. If they called a tower or FBO and got a positive report that you were on the ground, they probably marked it as arrived but did not close it.

Here's another one - if you want to use the eSRS service (SPOT/SpiderTracks) tracking by ATC, you must be on a VFR flight plan.
 
bflynn said:
So because you didn't close your flight plan and then didn't get woken up, you assumed they didn't know you landed? What it means you didn't do your part and close it. If they called a tower or FBO and got a positive report that you were on the ground, they probably marked it as arrived but did not close it.

Here's another one - if you want to use the eSRS service (SPOT/SpiderTracks) tracking by ATC, you must be on a VFR flight plan.
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Not my comment. But if it were me, I would’ve closed in the ground after landing and not gone through the hassle.
 
NoHeat said:
In another thread, one poster said a VFR flight plan is "useless" and another proposed a need for a new thread to challenge that view. So here's the new thread.

What's your opinion?
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Not useless, and here are the reasons. First the flight plan provides some protection in case of an accident. Flight plans will ensure that someone takes notice if you don't arrive at you destination and that SAR will be activated if you cannot be contacted. There is no inconvenience in filing one, especially with flight-planning apps. The SAR protection is not something you can count on if something should happen during a flight and you were unable to notify ATC. Lastly, if you want to earn an instrument rating, it's just a good habit to build towards that rating. Ideally, you should take advantage of every service your tax money allows for you.
 
bflynn said:
Here's another one - if you want to use the eSRS service (SPOT/SpiderTracks) tracking by ATC, you must be on a VFR flight plan.
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AFAIK ATC is not involved in eSRS are they? Thought that data only went to Leidos?
 
bflynn said:
So because you didn't close your flight plan and then didn't get woken up, you assumed they didn't know you landed? What it means you didn't do your part and close it. If they called a tower or FBO and got a positive report that you were on the ground, they probably marked it as arrived but did not close it.
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My message, but you quoted under "velocity" somehow. If you read closer, I attempted to close in the air, but FSS wanted a call from the ground. After landing, I called by phone and cancelled. Not sure why that wasn't clear in the original message.

Velocity173 said:
Not my comment. But if it were me, I would’ve closed in the ground after landing and not gone through the hassle.
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I attempted in the air, which they declined and instructed to do after landing. I called by phone after landing and CLOSED the flight plan. The next day, I was told it was still open/active as previously discussed. Couldn't "close in the ground" because I survived the landing:confused::p
 
SToL said:
Here's food for thought. I wont say how old I am, but I'll tell I started flying with my dad in the early 70s. I've flown 135 fixed and rotor most of my life. During that time I've done a whole lot of 'contract' work, so I've flown for a lot of different operators, and I've flown a lot of different personnel, and I can probably count the number of times I've filed a flight plan on one finger.

Many, if not most, especially in the helicopter world, who are 135 operators, self file. In other words, you tell someone, your boss, your base manager, your flight department, the Forest Circus heli manager, etc, where you're going and when you'll be back. We never file with the FAA.

The purpose of filing a flight plan is so 'someone' knows where you're going, when you should arrive and/or when you should return. Even if you file a fight plan with the FAA, and you deviate, chances are, no one is going to know where you went. The only exception to that is if you ask for FF, and even then it's no guarantee they're watching you that closely.

If you want to file, file. If you don't want to file, don't, but at least give someone your planned route, destination and expected times.
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....................Even if you file a fight plan with the FAA, and you deviate, chances are, no one is going to know where you went. The only exception to that is if you ask for FF, and even then it's no guarantee they're watching you that closely..........................

Not the only exception. You can make VFR position reports with Radio. Then there is a known time over a known position where you were. This can narrow the 'search area.' Giving a PIREP will accomplish the same thing, a known time and position. It will show up in an INREQ as quickly as a 'position report.' And you did something useful for others. CAVU and smooth is a good PIREP, they don't always gotta be about bad stuff. If you got cell coverage text home. I just crossed the Pecos dear, put the roast in the oven. Then when she calls and says 'he's missing' she can say he was 'here, then.' etc etc. The point is leave bread crumbs
 
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