VFR Flight Following question....

docmirror said:
Did the ELT assign you a specific code and tell you you were in radar contact? :nono:

I didn't say ATC is out to 'get' you, now did I? :nono:

Got anymore goofy things to throw at the wall? :goofy:
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You said it will become a "violation," so yes you did.

No, it won't. It will become an annoyance, which it already is.
 
MAKG1 said:
You said it will become a "violation," so yes you did.

No, it won't. It will become an annoyance, which it already is.
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To become a violation, the ATC is the last link in the chain. the cop on the beat if you will. The FAA will determine what rule to pass to make it a violation, and ATC will then be able to mark it up just like busting a class B. So, no I didn't say "ATC is out to get you". :nono: Read it again, and try to use some parsing skills. ATC will be the ones that have the onerous task of reporting, but they don't make policy. The policy of becoming a violation can only come from the FAA, or another three letter agency, authorized by congress.

In this specific case, ATC knew they couldn't do squat about it but call and wag their finger. So - they called and wagged their finger. Once the rules are changed then, ATC may report a potential violation to the FAA enforcement branch which they may then enforce.
 
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MAKG1 said:
ATC is not the "cop on the beat." They are the telephone operator. The cop would be a Flight Standards investigator.
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Except these call operators have control of the traffic lights and watch all the CCTV.
 
mkosmo said:
Except these call operators have control of the traffic lights and watch all the CCTV.
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All the controllers want to do is to get your target from one side of their scope to the other. That's about it. If you go missing they'll issue a ALNOT. They're not in the business of writing up pilots and would be just as happy to avoid that altogether. FSDO ASIs would also be just as happy to not initiate an enforcement action on anyone, and that philosophy comes straight from the top.
 
Brad Z said:
All the controllers want to do is to get your target from one side of their scope to the other. That's about it. If you go missing they'll issue a ALNOT. They're not in the business of writing up pilots and would be just as happy to avoid that altogether. FSDO ASIs would also be just as happy to not initiate an enforcement action on anyone, and that philosophy comes straight from the top.
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Oh, I know. But they can and will if they have to. People tend to be afraid of authority whether or not they have malicious intent.
 
N801BH said:
Real deal ...


A few days ago ...
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Not because I think you did anything wrong, or because I think the FAA might think you did anything wrong, but since it was less than 10 days ago anyway, just for giggles why don't you file an ASRS form? Worst thing that can happen, they might find a dead zone in radio coverage.
 
There's a lot of dead zones in NM, AZ, CO, WY, ID, MT at various altitudes. I get tired of relaying from United 253 that I'm squawking VFR, and United is rather tired of it as well.

This is a big country, and what works in suburban NC, and FL doesn't work in bum-pluck west TX or east CO. I go hours with the radio off. I've flown all over the central western US and rarely see another plane anywhere. When I get across the CA border, and head into the smog, my radio is on, I get a code, and my head is on a swivel constantly.

Different strokes.
 
DJTorrente said:
Not because I think you did anything wrong, or because I think the FAA might think you did anything wrong, but since it was less than 10 days ago anyway, just for giggles why don't you file an ASRS form? Worst thing that can happen, they might find a dead zone in radio coverage.
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There is no doubt about that.....


Thanks for the feedback sir...
 
I'd qualify the "not out to get you"; maybe say that the vast majority of controllers are not, and the largest majority of FSDO types are not. Just be very circumspect in any conversation with any FAA entity, unless/until you know if you're dealing with a majority, or, minority, member.
 
IFR flight and VFR with FF is within "The System". Thier system (think of it as Thier House). You cannot opt in or opt out without thier permission.

Just like you wouldnt let just anyone into your "house" without your consent and permission and you would expect them to tell you when they were coming and going.

Its mostly a matter of operations courtesy; but also since it is a REAL Government control system, you need to take it seriously.

I know I would if it were my system, and Id bet you'd take the same precautions if it were any other Mafia turf.

Heyyy.... is just business. :)
 
44Gort said:
IFR flight and VFR with FF is within "The System". Thier system (think of it as Thier House). You cannot opt in or opt out without thier permission.

Just like you wouldnt let just anyone into your "house" without your consent and permission and you would expect them to tell you when they were coming and going.
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Interesting analogy. So, I have a female friend over, and invite her in. She enters. She is in the system. Time to go home, and she asks permission to leave. I decline, advising her that there may be dangerous traffic ahead. She asks again, and I tell her she can go when I tell her she can go, and not before.

You see, the leaving part is important here. If she leaves without my permission, she has committed a violation?

Not sure, but I think I've just committed a felony.
 
docmirror said:
Interesting analogy. So, I have a female friend over, and invite her in. She enters. She is in the system. Time to go home, and she asks permission to leave. I decline, advising her that there may be dangerous traffic ahead. She asks again, and I tell her she can go when I tell her she can go, and not before.

You see, the leaving part is important here. If she leaves without my permission, she has committed a violation?

Not sure, but I think I've just committed a felony.
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Yep, not to beat it to death, but he did tell them he was leaving, via radio and TPX code change. By the book; that they failed to give either communication the proper attention is out of his control.
 
I'd rather this, than having the controller not care if I suddenly disappear. It's not perfect, but getting FF is voluntary. And if you're going to choose to participate, you could at least say good bye. :)

The benefit of flying on flight following far outweighs any problems I've had. Yup, there's the occasional grumpy controller, and there's little consistency about advising of altitude changes (sometimes I get "roger", sometimes I get a testy "VFR altitudes your discretion", but that was getting near the Orlando Class B and they were busy). Mostly, they just seem happy that I'm not some anonymous 1200 blip they can't talk to and can't coordinate with.
 
44Gort said:
IFR flight and VFR with FF is within "The System". Thier system (think of it as Thier House). You cannot opt in or opt out without thier permission.

Just like you wouldnt let just anyone into your "house" without your consent and permission and you would expect them to tell you when they were coming and going.

Its mostly a matter of operations courtesy; but also since it is a REAL Government control system, you need to take it seriously.

I know I would if it were my system, and Id bet you'd take the same precautions if it were any other Mafia turf.

Heyyy.... is just business. :)
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It's not thier house. It's not even their house. While the pilot can't opt in to the system he can definitely opt out whenever he's in VMC in airspace that does not require communications with ATC. If receiving only flight following the pilot doesn't even have to say anything. ATC is required to initiate a search whenever there's an unexpected loss of radar and radio communications but it's not uncommon to observe an aircraft on flight following change to 1200 and not respond to further communications.
 
While leaving Mpls on FF the controller was very busy and I flew out of range for comms. without him ever handing me off. I kept the trans. code and later just called the next freq. and she took the check-in as though she was expecting it. It was not busy so I asked her what I should have done and she said to definately keep the code and contact another facility if I could. She said that switching to 1200 would have made them initiate actions related to search/rescue. Keeping the same code at least told them I was still flying.
 
I've had the same thing happen IFR. I get to the point where I can't raise (or hear) the last frequency so I just look up what I guess is the most appropriate frequency for the area (looking at the nearby airports to see what they have listed on their plates) and call that. In almost all cases it was the frequency I was supposed to have been handed off to anyhow.
 
N801BH said:
...30 minutes or so later I get another hand off to SLC center, dial in the freq and hear ALOT of chatter,, I tried to get a word in edgewise for 5 minutes or so but they never got back to me...

Here is where it gets sideways.......

In front of me is a line for rain showers moving west to east, at this stage it is just rain shafts that I can see though and the ceiling is dropping a bit, then I see a stoke of lighinging :eek:. so I make the executive decision to not continue to try and contact SLC sector since I would be needing lower and left and right of course to clear weather so I announce 75K is cancelling FF and squawking 1200, good day... I turn down the volume to concentrate of flying the plane...
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Why not just leave the volume and the squawk where they are, and just ignore the radio unless or until you hear your call sign?
 
eb87f said:
While leaving Mpls on FF the controller was very busy and I flew out of range for comms. without him ever handing me off. I kept the trans. code and later just called the next freq. and she took the check-in as though she was expecting it. It was not busy so I asked her what I should have done and she said to definately keep the code and contact another facility if I could. She said that switching to 1200 would have made them initiate actions related to search/rescue. Keeping the same code at least told them I was still flying.
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So... If I would have crashed...... the plane would still be squawking 1200 VFR..:confused::confused::confused:
 
eb87f said:
While leaving Mpls on FF the controller was very busy and I flew out of range for comms. without him ever handing me off. I kept the trans. code and later just called the next freq. and she took the check-in as though she was expecting it. It was not busy so I asked her what I should have done and she said to definately keep the code and contact another facility if I could. She said that switching to 1200 would have made them initiate actions related to search/rescue. Keeping the same code at least told them I was still flying.
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So a VFR aircraft switching from a discrete code to 1200 is a distress signal?
 
roncachamp said:
So a VFR aircraft switching from a discrete code to 1200 is a distress signal?
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That's just then taking a conservative approach to safety. There's a chance it's a different a/c. A different a/c randomly using the same code in a similar position is rather unlikely, however.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
 
If I lose communication with an aircraft, I'm required to employ NORDO procedures.

If there is isn't much traffic out there, and I see a new 1200 code but have lost the VFR FF I was working, I tell my supervisor nothing or if asked I tell my supervisor the pilot cancelled. I can deduce what happened, especially if said aircraft remains in the same vicinity exhibiting similar behaviors to the aircraft I worked.

If, as is usually in my personal case, I work an airspace with high volumes of traffic (both discrete codes and 1200 codes), and a VFR aircraft on FF says nothing but goes code 1200, I have a different situation. I can't deduce one of those 1200 codes is the VFR aircraft. Now that I have reasonable doubt of a safe flight, my supervisor might implement search and rescue procedures. In the case of the OP, you have the combination of mountainous terrain, spotty radar coverage, and weather. All the makings of a good possibility of dropped VFR FF being the beginning of an aircraft incident.

OP, you did nothing wrong. You made it known on the frequency you were canceling FF. End of story. You might get a "talking to" from someone about it, but that's nothing more than a supervisor voicing frustration. I'm guessing he issued an ALNOT* for your aircraft, and the FBO or Tower called him saying you landed safely.

The rest of this thread about "violations" and "tin foil hat theory" is just that. Tin foil hat stuff. VFR aircraft are VFR.

If issued an instruction that you feel will jeopardize the safety of flight, the proper phraseology to any instruction is "unable." If you, as a PIC, feel helpful, offer what you can do or an alternative for ATC to work with.

The common sense thing to do as a VFR aircraft under radar surveillance is, if practicable, notify the controller of your intention to terminate services. It's not asking permission, it's professional courtesy.

*ALNOT = ALert NOTice. ARTCC's or FSS's initiate these after losing two way communication with aircraft, or for overdue aircraft. It's the first step prior to initiating full blown Search and Rescue procedures.
 
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