VFR departure blocked by IFR plane.

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dbman5

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dbman5
Reading another thread reminded me of this and I'm wondering what others think the correct way to handle it should be.

I was in a situation where I was departing VFR and taxiing to the runup area when there was another plane sitting on the yellow line but back a little way from the hold short line. I assumed he was about to take off so I pulled around into the very large and empty runup area well clear of the taxiway and behind and to the side of the other guy. Since he was sitting there, I took my time going through the runup then sat and waited a minute or two longer. There was absolutely no indication that he was even aware I was there. I was watching him closely for any indication that he was about to move the plane and seeing none I started to move forward hoping he would look around and see me. There was just enough room to get my 152 past him but it wasn't a "comfortable" situation. Another plane as large as his probably would not have attempted it. I kept a sharp lookout as I moved along side of him until far enough ahead that he couldn't miss me if he looked up - but he never seemed to look up.

I got to the hold short line, called the tower for take-off and departed. (Tower can't see that particular area until you are AT the hold short line.)

I assume the guy was waiting for an IFR clearance but it seemed to me this was a very poor way to do it -- Hey, I'm the only one that important so the rest of you can just sit and wait for me.

Any suggestions if (when) this happens again? Contact the tower? Shut my plane down and go knock on his door? (There would have been plenty of time. And imagine the reaction when he starts hearing banging noises on his plane!:D) Mount an air-horn on my plane to get his attention?
 
dbman5 said:
Reading another thread reminded me of this and I'm wondering what others think the correct way to handle it should be.

I was in a situation where I was departing VFR and taxiing to the runup area when there was another plane sitting on the yellow line but back a little way from the hold short line. I assumed he was about to take off so I pulled around into the very large and empty runup area well clear of the taxiway and behind and to the side of the other guy. Since he was sitting there, I took my time going through the runup then sat and waited a minute or two longer. There was absolutely no indication that he was even aware I was there. I was watching him closely for any indication that he was about to move the plane and seeing none I started to move forward hoping he would look around and see me. There was just enough room to get my 152 past him but it wasn't a "comfortable" situation. Another plane as large as his probably would not have attempted it. I kept a sharp lookout as I moved along side of him until far enough ahead that he couldn't miss me if he looked up - but he never seemed to look up.

I got to the hold short line, called the tower for take-off and departed. (Tower can't see that particular area until you are AT the hold short line.)

I assume the guy was waiting for an IFR clearance but it seemed to me this was a very poor way to do it -- Hey, I'm the only one that important so the rest of you can just sit and wait for me.

Any suggestions if (when) this happens again? Contact the tower? Shut my plane down and go knock on his door? (There would have been plenty of time. And imagine the reaction when he starts hearing banging noises on his plane!:D) Mount an air-horn on my plane to get his attention?
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Call ground and have them ask the guy what his intentions are. That should get him off the dime.
 
Sometimes people are jerks and do rude things... and sometimes, they just weren't thinking about it.

Give 'em the benefit of the doubt and politely ask ground (or Twr, more likely, if he was waiting for release) if you can go around and depart. Odds are, he/she will feel silly for having positioned themselves as they did, most likely done when they were expecting an immediate release and were surprised by the extended wait (...'course, that has never happened to *me*).

At an uncontrolled field, just ask on the CTAF if they mind you going around them. Not that it's their prerogative to block you from the runway, but (again) allow them the dignity of doing the right thing.
 
Towered airport: ask Ground what the intentions of the other plane are. I frequently been asked by ground (or tower, depending) whether I can get around someone who chose to wait on the taxiway instead of the penalty box. You can often accomplish this by making the radio call to tower: "N12345 ready in sequence"... that alerts the tower that they need to do something with the guy.

At an uncontrolled field, call the plane on unicom/CTAF. If he doesn't respond, he's likely on clearance frequency. In that case, make your calls and go around him if there's room.
 
wsuffa said:
At an uncontrolled field, call the plane on unicom/CTAF. If he doesn't respond, he's likely on clearance frequency. In that case, make your calls and go around him if there's room.
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I had one tell me he was waiting and sorry about blocking the taxiway. So I used the midfield departure option.

I suspect once intentions are known at a towered airport you would have that option as well as trying to get past him.
 
It's always bad form to block a taxiway when another option is available.

I would have made a call to the tower telling them I'm ready in sequence behind a (whatever he is).

They'll either tell you to continue to wait or ask if you can get around him.
 
Next time: Try honking and flipping the bird. :D
 
I have occasionally wished for a horn on the plane- like Truman Sparks, in the movie Fandango, had.
 
i was at a fly in a while back, and when this maule took off it blasted it's sirens! sounded like a police car! i could still hear it about a mile away, (it say PATROL on the bottom of the wings in huge letters)

but, oh how i wouldnt mind having that.
 
This has happened to me once before, and now I kind of expect it sometimes. My last encounter was in Houston behind a twin turbine of some kind. I was taxiing out and saw him sitting there. Requested an 'immediate intersection from next access'. Tower cleared at my discretion(I had 4800'), I was outa there, and while on downwind, the twin was still sitting, blocking the apron at the departure end.
 
Was it a jet? At the larger airports, they want you to get up there and be ready to go. Then at a class D you discover you have to hold while they find you some airspace.
Its easy to forget they might need some time when you switch airport types.
Or he might be working on a problem he didnt anticipate (panel light won't extinguish, gps needed more programming, misplaced DP, spilled coffee!)

Either way, you are right.
 
SCCutler said:
I have occasionally wished for a horn on the plane- like Truman Sparks, in the movie Fandango, had.
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You mean one of these? :):D:cheerswine:

Venturi_tube_aircraft.jpg


Or these?

Link
 
wsuffa said:
You mean one of these? :):D:cheerswine:

Venturi_tube_aircraft.jpg


Or these?

Link
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Naw, he actually had a horn that played a tune- he lands on a freeway, taxis to this girl's house, and honks so she can come out for a ride to west Texas to get married.
 
Well, as one who has inadvertantly blocked the departure end, it happens sometimes. You get your clearance, program everything, go to ground and get your taxi clearance, and head out, only to be told at the runway to "hold for release, Kxxx is holding for delays, we will be right back to you." Meanwhile, you are sitting at the only taxiway entrance and can't turn around without entering the runway and taxiing to the next turnoff. I feel miserable when that happens, but it is unforeseen at times, and there are situations where I must have an instrument clearance to depart.

I have been on both sides of the situation. I have been stuck behind a VFR student who took 15 minutes to go through all of the runup and departure procedures before departure. You can almost feel the tension of the impatient customers sitting behind you. It happens to all of us, and I believe it is just something to put up with. I know when I was a student, I sure didn't want anyone rushing me out to takeoff.
 
As much fun as it might be to blast an air horn, it sounds like contacting ground/tower was the thing to do. I'm pretty sure he was waiting for release. (Yes, it was a towered airport.)

Thanks for all the comments. They'll help me formulate a polite request next time it happens. I figured calling ground/tower was the thing to do but didn't know how to phrase the issue. (One of the joys of training at an uncontrolled airport.)

I wasn't really angry about it - just wondering what to do so I don't waste fuel and time. And, I didn't want to sound like a jerk myself.

SCCutler said:
Sometimes people are jerks and do rude things... and sometimes, they just weren't thinking about it.
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Yeah - luckily I've never even mistakenly done anything rude.
 
Could also have been that the guy was doing some post-maintenance runups / diagnostic work. I see them do that at Fort Worth Meacham all the time, but at least they have a large "holding area" they can swing around into and not block the runway. He may have been heads-down running an avionics post-installation checklist or some such thing. In any case, calling the tower or ground for their direction sounds like the best answer...
 
My student was going to do some solo pattern work. I was flying back in the Skipper. Made the 10 mile out call and then heard lost of idle chatter on the freq -- hot mike.

I tried calling "Hot mike" in the apparent gaps of transmissions, but to no avail. I heard "So where's the checklist? Hang on..." and then the Cirrus pair decided to call in an IFR flight plan, on the ground, in the runup area -- for a trip to MGW (40 NM away).

My Student was behind the Cirrus and waiting. In the meantime Airship Snoopy 1 (Met Life Blimp) was inbound.

I announced but to no avail -- freq was being stepped on by the yakkers.

I joined the pattern and landed after the airship.

After securing the Skipper I saw the 205 Takeoff and figured all was well.

I went over the the ramp after he landed and he was not happy. He said he idled for 17 minutes behind the Cirrus. He could not ask their intentions, and did not want to takeoff without announcing and without being able to hear other traffic.

We talked about uncontrolled fields and what to do in that situation.

I shared my student's annoyance at the Cirrus pair. If you're going to file, do it with FSS or in the air, but not in the runup area blocking all traffic -- especially on a VFR day when there is plenty of other traffic.

And for goodness sake -- get your finger off the PTT switch. We really don't need 122.8 blocked for every airport within 20 miles.
 
dmccormack said:
And for goodness sake -- get your finger off the PTT switch.
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A hot mike is usually caused by some kind of short, not someone forgetting to lift their finger. Also, the offender will not hear you saying "hot mike" on the frequency. In fact they won't hear anything on that radio as long as it is keyed.
 
Everskyward said:
A hot mike is usually caused by some kind of short, not someone forgetting to lift their finger. Also, the offender will not hear you saying "hot mike" on the frequency. In fact they won't hear anything on that radio as long as it is keyed.
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There were gaps in the transmission. And this is a brand new SR22.

You're right it may be a short, but given who was probably in that airplane, my guess is a depressed PTT.
 
dmccormack said:
There were gaps in the transmission. And this is a brand new SR22.
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The gaps in the transmission could have been because the short was intermittent and didn't occur every time the mike was keyed. Also, brand new airplanes are not immune to problems. I mention this because I had a similar problem in an airplane once which was hard to figure out. We thought the receiver was failing intermittently but it was actually a stuck mike due to a short.
 
Wire bundle behind panel seems to be a likely culprit as well.

dmccormack said:
There were gaps in the transmission. And this is a brand new SR22.

You're right it may be a short, but given who was probably in that airplane, my guess is a depressed PTT.
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Everskyward said:
A hot mike is usually caused by some kind of short, not someone forgetting to lift their finger. Also, the offender will not hear you saying "hot mike" on the frequency. In fact they won't hear anything on that radio as long as it is keyed.
Click to expand...

I heard someone (an exasperated controller, I think!) calling on guard last week "Stuck mic on (frequency)!"
 
Everskyward said:
A hot mike is usually caused by some kind of short, not someone forgetting to lift their finger. Also, the offender will not hear you saying "hot mike" on the frequency. In fact they won't hear anything on that radio as long as it is keyed.
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
I heard someone (an exasperated controller, I think!) calling on guard last week "Stuck mic on (frequency)!"
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Ha - one of my pet peeves ... they offender doesn't hear the peanut gallery all squawking "stuck mic! stuck mic!" and then nobody else gets a legitimate call in edgewise! "Duh! We can ALL hear there's a stuck mic - but thanks to everyone for the heads up on that - I might have missed that!" :goofy:
 
gkainz said:
Ha - one of my pet peeves ... they offender doesn't hear the peanut gallery all squawking "stuck mic! stuck mic!" and then nobody else gets a legitimate call in edgewise! "Duh! We can ALL hear there's a stuck mic - but thanks to everyone for the heads up on that - I might have missed that!" :goofy:
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In the case I was citing, I think the controller said it on guard because the plane with the stuck mic might have been monitoring it on his other radio and still able to hear that radio.
 
SCCutler said:
I have occasionally wished for a horn on the plane- like Truman Sparks, in the movie Fandango, had.
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In most airplanes it's possible to hear another if the engine on that plane is at full power. Just don't point either end of you plane at the other while "honking".
 
dmccormack said:
There were gaps in the transmission. And this is a brand new SR22.

You're right it may be a short, but given who was probably in that airplane, my guess is a depressed PTT.
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused about parts of the story. When they were filing a flight plan were they transmitting on the CTAF (122.8)? I don't see how that would work unless they were patched in or being relayed by the Unicom operator. And by "gaps in the transmission" do you mean times when there was no audio or was there really no carrier (sometimes you gotta disable squelch to tell)?
 
lancefisher said:
I'm a little confused about parts of the story. When they were filing a flight plan were they transmitting on the CTAF (122.8)? I don't see how that would work unless they were patched in or being relayed by the Unicom operator. And by "gaps in the transmission" do you mean times when there was no audio or was there really no carrier (sometimes you gotta disable squelch to tell)?
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They called FSS on a cell phone through headset.

The apparent gaps were reduction in noise (no carrier signal).
 
dmccormack said:
They called FSS on a cell phone through headset.

The apparent gaps were reduction in noise (no carrier signal).
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OK, I get the FSS part now, but if they simply stopped talking while the transmitter was keyed the "noise" would be reduced. OTOH if you were able to hear their engine on the radio then when that went away it seems likely they weren't transmitting. Perhaps they turned down the comm audio so they could hear the cellphone without any distractions and therefore couldn't hear when you transmitted in the gaps.

Did you use their N# when you tried to get their attention on the radio? I'll bet that would have gotten a response if they didn't have the audio off.
 
lancefisher said:
OK, I get the FSS part now, but if they simply stopped talking while the transmitter was keyed the "noise" would be reduced. OTOH if you were able to hear their engine on the radio then when that went away it seems likely they weren't transmitting. Perhaps they turned down the comm audio so they could hear the cellphone without any distractions and therefore couldn't hear when you transmitted in the gaps.

Did you use their N# when you tried to get their attention on the radio? I'll bet that would have gotten a response if they didn't have the audio off.
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Not sure -- though it sounded to me like the mike was being keyed and un-keyed -- no intermittent static, whines, hisses -- all the rest that often accompanies some radio problem. From the sound of it it was a PTT being held down.

No... I didn't get the whole N number until later, on the ground.
 
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