Vegan jerky- any takers???

spiderweb said:
Personally, I don't care what animals look like. The only relevant thing is not to eat them.
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Just out of curiosity, what veggies/fruits/nuts etc. do you find yourself eating the most?

I'd bet good money that you and I probably eat many of the same foods and I'm not even close to being a vegan/vegetarian. :eek:
 
spiderweb said:
You think animals are food, and that's your opinion, that's how you feel, and that's fine for you.

In my opinion (and this is the opinion, by the way, of millions of people who are vegetarians and vegans) animals are NOT "food," and I think it is almost bizarre that anyone would want to eat one.
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Just like you said about animal eaters, I have no problem with you having your opinions either, but I am interested in how you reconcile this logic: Animals obviously ARE food, in much of the animal kingdom. (100% food if you count bacterial decomposition.) I need not point out the ubiquitous eating of animals by other animals in the wild. Our own species has obviously always regarded at least some animals as food, so I'm curious why you find it bizarre anyone would want to eat one. Historically it's actually more bizarre to NOT want to eat one. It seems like you have it backwards.

If wild animals kill and eat animals, and we always did too when we were "wild", why is it suddenly wrong to do so? For all other wild behaviors such as promiscuous sex for example, the argument usually put forth is that unlike animals we have a soul and therefore morals, capable of sin and so forth, and so we are held to a different standard than animals. But I'm not under the impression that the typical vegan is a devote religious sort.

On the contrary, is it because you place yourself equal to animals? So it is like cannibalism to eat one? If so I can understand that. I think that is why we have a taboo against eating our dogs; in this country dogs are viewed as members of the family and therefore "not food". Do you extend that feeling to all animals?

But if you do then that must mean you don't hold humans to a higher moral plane. And if you don't, then why is it more wrong for us to eat say a deer, than for a lion? Is it more wrong for us to eat a monkey than for a chimpanzee to eat a monkey? Why is it wrong for us to eat baby whales and not wrong for an Orca to eat baby whales? In all of these examples, you have to be holding humans to a different moral standard otherwise it doesn't make sense. But if you hold humans to a different standard, then how can animals be our equals? The logic doesn't hang together. I'd be open to hearing your thoughts on this.
 
Rushie said:
Just like you said about animal eaters, I have no problem with you having your opinions either, but I am interested in how you reconcile this logic: Animals obviously ARE food, in much of the animal kingdom. (100% food if you count bacterial decomposition.) I need not point out the ubiquitous eating of animals by other animals in the wild. Our own species has obviously always regarded at least some animals as food, so I'm curious why you find it bizarre anyone would want to eat one. Historically it's actually more bizarre to NOT want to eat one. It seems like you have it backwards.

If wild animals kill and eat animals, and we always did too when we were "wild", why is it suddenly wrong to do so? For all other wild behaviors such as promiscuous sex for example, the argument usually put forth is that unlike animals we have a soul and therefore morals, capable of sin and so forth, and so we are held to a different standard than animals. But I'm not under the impression that the typical vegan is a devote religious sort.

On the contrary, is it because you place yourself equal to animals? So it is like cannibalism to eat one? If so I can understand that. I think that is why we have a taboo against eating our dogs; in this country dogs are viewed as members of the family and therefore "not food". Do you extend that feeling to all animals?

But if you do then that must mean you don't hold humans to a higher moral plane. And if you don't, then why is it more wrong for us to eat say a deer, than for a lion? Is it more wrong for us to eat a monkey than for a chimpanzee to eat a monkey? Why is it wrong for us to eat baby whales and not wrong for an Orca to eat baby whales? In all of these examples, you have to be holding humans to a different moral standard otherwise it doesn't make sense. But if you hold humans to a different standard, then how can animals be our equals? The logic doesn't hang together. I'd be open to hearing your thoughts on this.
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You made almost the exact post that I started earlier, then decided to delete. You made the point much better than I was going to, so I'm glad I didn't bother. But one thing to remember is that the point you've made isn't limited to food choices. If we are indeed animals, as so many are eager to point out, then many points of morality become subject to this question.
 
azblackbird said:
Just out of curiosity, what veggies/fruits/nuts etc. do you find yourself eating the most?

I'd bet good money that you and I probably eat many of the same foods and I'm not even close to being a vegan/vegetarian. :eek:
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Lots and lots of fruits and veggies and nuts. Lots of berries. It is easier to list what I don't eat, such as okra or raw habaneros.
 
Rushie said:
Just like you said about animal eaters, I have no problem with you having your opinions either, but I am interested in how you reconcile this logic: Animals obviously ARE food, in much of the animal kingdom. (100% food if you count bacterial decomposition.) I need not point out the ubiquitous eating of animals by other animals in the wild. Our own species has obviously always regarded at least some animals as food, so I'm curious why you find it bizarre anyone would want to eat one. Historically it's actually more bizarre to NOT want to eat one. It seems like you have it backwards.
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I don't have it backwards, and here's why:

1) Herbivorous animals are also ubiquitous in the animal kingdom.
2) Most of the research I have found points to humans as being mostly herbivorous, only eating meat very occasionally.
3) The daily, constant intake of animal products, especially actual servings of meat and fish with every meal, is historically quite a recent phenomenon.
4) Thus the modern phenomenon of eating meat every three or four hours is, in fact, the anomaly. Further, the quantities are getting bigger and cheaper, hence one of the reasons for the obesity epidemic, especially in America.

Rushie said:
If wild animals kill and eat animals, and we always did too when we were "wild", why is it suddenly wrong to do so? . . ."
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This first statement isn't true concerning the notion that humans "always" killed and ate animals, as I mentioned, above; so the rest of the paragraph does not follow.

Rushie said:
On the contrary, is it because you place yourself equal to animals?
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I feel all animals deserve life. But I just know it is unnecessary to eat them, having been a vegetarian for 26 years and a vegan for two years, and demonstrably better for my health and the health of millions not to do so.

Rushie said:
So it is like cannibalism to eat one? If so I can understand that. I think that is why we have a taboo against eating our dogs; in this country dogs are viewed as members of the family and therefore "not food". Do you extend that feeling to all animals?
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In my opinion, it does not quite rise to the level of cannibalism; but this is a personal judgment call. Because I do indeed view all animals as equally deserving of life (a basic tenet of Buddhism), I do not eat any of them.

Rushie said:
But if you do then that must mean you don't hold humans to a higher moral plane.
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That is correct. Humans are capable of great good, but also great evil.
 
spiderweb said:
You think animals are food, and that's your opinion, that's how you feel, and that's fine for you.

In my opinion (and this is the opinion, by the way, of millions of people who are vegetarians and vegans) animals are NOT "food," and I think it is almost bizarre that anyone would want to eat one.

Furthermore, I am not projecting any characteristics; rather, I am stating what many people feel are those characteristics. For example, many people think dolphins, puppies, and rabbits are "cute." Personally, I don't care what animals look like. The only relevant thing is not to eat them.
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Lol. You want to argue “millions” when the world human population is “billions”. I’ll stick with my opinion that you are projecting. I’ll add to it that you argue from emotion rather than reason.
 
I'm just wondering why a LOT of the manufacturers of the food that is marketed to vegetarians, takes great pains to make it taste like meat.

Why is that?
 
spiderweb said:
That is correct. Humans are capable of great good, but also great evil.
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Does this same good and evil exist in the animal Kingdom as well? Or is it merely a human phenomenon?
 
Clark1961 said:
Lol. You want to argue “millions” when the world human population is “billions”. I’ll stick with my opinion that you are projecting. I’ll add to it that you argue from emotion rather than reason.
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Typical and predictable how quickly you make excuses for yourself.

Many estimates make it around 600 million, meaning 10% of the world. Further, there are entire countries which are almost exclusively vegetarians. If you do even the slightest research on death from cancer and heart disease in those populations, you'd have to be very good at self-denial to say that they're not on to something.

Also, you're argument that "most people do it, so it must be OK," has been proven specious time and time again, viz slavery.

You know what? I really don't care if you laugh at me. I watched several of my family members die or get sick due to reasons easily cured by diet, and a modicum of knowledge about that subject.

But in America, after your first heart attack, what do you get? A 10 minute perfunctory lecture about diet and exercise, a pamphlet, and a LIFETIME subscription to prescription. Go research how well that works, how often the next heart attack and/or cancer comes quickly on the heels of the first incident. Then go look at the incidence of cancer and heart disease in vegetarian populations.

So you go right ahead and write me and 10% of the world's population off. Some people listen when presented with evidence, and others prefer their own, emotional wishful thinking.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I'm just wondering why a LOT of the manufacturers of the food that is marketed to vegetarians, takes great pains to make it taste like meat.

Why is that?
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Simple reason: to help with a transition.

The two most important factors, I will freely admit, you have to get right are texture and flavor. The so-called "fake chicken," "fake beef," etc. makes a go at that.

Besides, "mock chicken," is catchier than "textured vegetable protein."
 
Cooter said:
Does this same good and evil exist in the animal Kingdom as well? Or is it merely a human phenomenon?
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I think this is a great question, and I'll admit that I do not know the answer.

But what I DO know is this: because of our grasp of technology, our ability to manifest great good and great evil is much more powerful than any animal. For example, our knowledge of medicine has resulted in amazing cures of diseases which wiped out a great percentage of our population in the past. Yet at the same time, our technological advancement in nuclear weapons means we also have the potential to wipe out much of life on this planet.
 
spiderweb said:
Typical and predictable how quickly you make excuses for yourself.

Many estimates make it around 600 million, meaning 10% of the world. Further, there are entire countries which are almost exclusively vegetarians. If you do even the slightest research on death from cancer and heart disease in those populations, you'd have to be very good at self-denial to say that they're not on to something.

Also, you're argument that "most people do it, so it must be OK," has been proven specious time and time again, viz slavery.

You know what? I really don't care if you laugh at me. I watched several of my family members die or get sick due to reasons easily cured by diet, and a modicum of knowledge about that subject.

But in America, after your first heart attack, what do you get? A 10 minute perfunctory lecture about diet and exercise, a pamphlet, and a LIFETIME subscription to prescription. Go research how well that works, how often the next heart attack and/or cancer comes quickly on the heels of the first incident. Then go look at the incidence of cancer and heart disease in vegetarian populations.

So you go right ahead and write me and 10% of the world's population off. Some people listen when presented with evidence, and others prefer their own, emotional wishful thinking.
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First of all I made no excuses. Do not make up things so you can argue against those things.

Next you typed: “you’re [sic] argument that “most people do it so it must be OK [sic]”” is another made up point. At no time did I say that. Once again you make something up and assign it to me.

What I did demonstrate is that your points are quite weak in a statistical sense. I followed that by stating that I believe you are emotional rather than rational. You’ve done nothing to alter that belief.
 
Clark1961 said:
First of all I made no excuses. Do not make up things so you can argue against those things.

Next you typed: “you’re [sic] argument that “most people do it so it must be OK [sic]”” is another made up point. At no time did I say that. Once again you make something up and assign it to me.

What I did demonstrate is that your points are quite weak in a statistical sense. I followed that by stating that I believe you are emotional rather than rational. You’ve done nothing to alter that belief.
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You demonstrated nothing of the sort.

Of course I cannot alter your beliefs. I suppose I have to conclude you think that 600 million human beings have nothing but emotional reasons to be vegetarians. If you think a number like 600 million is "statistically weak," then that's scary. For example, if I read that 10% of a particular type of aircraft engine were defective, I would AT LEAST want to do a modicum of research.

The facts are out there, but instead of following up on those facts, you're wasting time arguing with me.

I respect meat eaters who say they don't care, they just want to eat meat.

Why don't you just say what you want to say: you just want to eat meat, no matter what, and that's the story.
 
Perhaps now is another good time for me to point out that I am a Trump-voting Libertarian. If you want to eat meat, smoke pot, have five wives, or strip naked and sing Vedic love songs--knock yourself out. As long as it doesn't impinge on me, I don't care.
 
spiderweb said:
You demonstrated nothing of the sort.

Of course I cannot alter your beliefs. I suppose I have to conclude you think that 600 million human beings have nothing but emotional reasons to be vegetarians. If you think a number like 600 million is "statistically weak," then that's scary. For example, if I read that 10% of a particular type of aircraft engine were defective, I would AT LEAST want to do a modicum of research.

The facts are out there, but instead of following up on those facts, you're wasting time arguing with me.

I respect meat eaters who say they don't care, they just want to eat meat.

Why don't you just say what you want to say: you just want to eat meat, no matter what, and that's the story.
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Don’t make things up about what I want to say. I demonstrated that your arguments are weak and your response is an irrational, emotional attack. Good luck.
 
spiderweb said:
Perhaps now is another good time for me to point out that I am a Trump-voting Libertarian. If you want to eat meat, smoke pot, have five wives, or strip naked and sing Vedic love songs--knock yourself out. As long as it doesn't impinge on me, I don't care.
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Oh horse ****. In other posts you claim that folks must think about things the way you want. What a hypocrit.
 
The circle of life is cruel. Humans at least try to be somewhat conscious in how we slaughter food and strive, overall, to be as least cruel as possible... more than can be said for others in the animal kingdom.

I recently ate horse and, while I felt a little guilty because I really like horses and think they are majestic creatures, it was hands down one of the best meals I've ever had the pleasure of consuming.

Craving bacon now.
 
Well, that jerky really was good - not sure it was good enough to create this level of "discussion"...

I guess I'll add fuel to the fire and say I took my wife to a play today that has an interesting point on the discussion: "accept someone for who they are."

Oh well, it's the Internet.
 
brian] said:
I guess I'll add fuel to the fire and say I took my wife to a play today that has an interesting point on the discussion: "accept someone for who they are."
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Does "who they are" necessarily include everything they do? The other question is, what does it mean to accept someone?
 
Cooter said:
Does "who they are" necessarily include everything they do? The other question is, what does it mean to accept someone?
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Let's go with serial killer and see where this goes.
 
brian] said:
accept someone for who they are."
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That reminds of something I saw on TV once. It was on an MTV reality show back before reality shows were a thing. I don't remember the show but whatever it was there were about 20 young ladies living or staying in the same house(with 1 bathroom). There was one in particular that would spend 30 minutes to an hour in the b-room and all the other girls were irate. They confronted her and her defense was "that's just who I am!!!" So if you challenged her selfish behavior, you were attacking her as a person. That's a handy tactic many have learned to use to their advantage.
 
Attack?

Seems like everyone is wearing their emotions on their sleeve anymore. Talk about vegan jerky and the meat eaters get offended. Then the vegans step in and get offended... blah blah.

Oh well - have fun folks - time to get some shut eye. Then internet is making me sleepy ....
 
There are a lot of meals where I want to add in some protein. Some of the faux meat products make it quite facile to do so with no further cooking needed. Its also nice to have a hot patty to put in a bun, and veggie burgers are yummy. I don't know how to duplicate that process. That, and we do lie the fake to dogs for my very real sauerkraut. Everyone in this nation is raised with meat as the "normal". No surprise manufacturers try to duplicate it.
 
Clark1961 said:
Don’t make things up about what I want to say. I demonstrated that your arguments are weak and your response is an irrational, emotional attack. Good luck.
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Facts, my friend. If you think facts and research make a "poor argument," then you have effectively ended any discussion.
 
Clark1961 said:
Oh horse ****. In other posts you claim that folks must think about things the way you want. What a hypocrit.
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Nope. In other posts I offer facts one can either acknowledge or ignore--up to the reader. In the posts where I offer opinion (such as my Buddhist /Taoist beliefs), I label them as such, since religion and philosophy are personal.

But I do STRONGLY recommend Libertarianism as a better way for humanity.

And Trump was better than Hillary, in my opinion.

Also, your horse **** comment reminds me--I have to muck out Janie's stall. Thanks for the reminder!
 
steingar said:
There are a lot of meals where I want to add in some protein. Some of the faux meat products make it quite facile to do so with no further cooking needed. Its also nice to have a hot patty to put in a bun, and veggie burgers are yummy. I don't know how to duplicate that process. That, and we do lie the fake to dogs for my very real sauerkraut. Everyone in this nation is raised with meat as the "normal". No surprise manufacturers try to duplicate it.
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A concise way to describe it!
 
Let's stop the political direction before I open my can of banhammer...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Let's stop the political direction before I open my can of banhammer...
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I tried my horse but that didn't even slow em down, wasn't even a speed bump for them. :dunno:

Cajun said she ate the bugger so maybe that's what happened after all.
 
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spiderweb said:
Nope. In other posts I offer facts one can either acknowledge or ignore--up to the reader. In the posts where I offer opinion (such as my Buddhist /Taoist beliefs), I label them as such, since religion and philosophy are personal.

But I do STRONGLY recommend Libertarianism as a better way for humanity.

And Trump was better than Hillary, in my opinion.

Also, your horse **** comment reminds me--I have to muck out Janie's stall. Thanks for the reminder!
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Oh horse**** (yes, a double). You certainly did claim that other people should think about their food sources the same way you do.

Not only do you present factually weak arguments but you also deny your own statements. I understand that you are emotional about these things. You certainly are unlikely to convince rational thinkers of the validity of your claims.
 
Clark1961 said:
Oh horse**** (yes, a double). You certainly did claim that other people should think about their food sources the same way you do.

Not only do you present factually weak arguments but you also deny your own statements. I understand that you are emotional about these things. You certainly are unlikely to convince rational thinkers of the validity of your claims.
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Sorry, but the facts are anything BUT weak. In case it was unclear in previous posts, I will hereby state for all concerned (probably no one): eat whatever you want to eat.

What actually happened was two things:

1) I was asked my views by some, and I responded with them. Nearly all of those requests were serious and civil.
2) I presented various facts--just a tiny amount of the body of research on the subject--such as:
  • 600 million humans, or 10% of the humans on planet earth, are vegetarian
  • Consistent, high intake of meat is a very recent phenomenon in humanity's 200,000 year history
  • Vegetarians have statistically significantly lower incidences of heart disease and certain cancers
These are not emotions; they are facts, my friend, and don't require you to believe in them or not.

As I'm sure you know, facts are neither "weak" nor "strong"--they are simply truths. Incidentally, as I've said above, there are many other facts in support of vegetarianism pertaining not only to health, but also to the environment. These are quite easily researched, should you care (you don't) to have your eyes opened. You can, for example, read at least the abstracts of primary sources like the New England Journal of Medicine or the Lancet, for free. These are the sorts of primary sources I have been reading to learn about this topic, for nearly 30 years.

It might not be obvious to you, but you are refusing to debate me on the merits. I am quite used that, and it is fine.

But I'm getting bored, and so is everyone else, so see you in another thread.
 
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