Vectors to Final

dtuuri said:
Agreed, while on a vector. After being cleared enroute (direct to FIX), it isn't the same thing anymore--you're on your own navigation to your clearance limit not ATC's.


Very good example you pose, which I'll answer by way of a recurrent training scenario at Flight Safety International once upon a time in one of my previous lives:
After departing Stapleton westbound on a SID the CFI began a non-stop dialog with phantom aircraft for 10 minutes, preventing us from calling on frequency. Quite an impressive performance. At 10 minutes I climbed to the published lost comm altitude, whereupon he broke out in accolades for a job well done. Shucks, it was nothin'. I wasn't going to try to move the Rocky Mountains even in a sim.​

dtuuri
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Having done many practice approaches in the Denver area, including flying through the localizer while on a vectors toward the mountains, this is very close to exactly what I had in mind when I read the OP's question the first time.

So much of the answer to what to do is based on having situational awareness.
 
petrolero said:
In my experience from flying and from just listening on LiveATC, the approach controllers working the ILS at KAPA almost always let the pilot know beforehand if he'll likely have to fly past final - and they often are apologetic about it. This is more often done when guys are doing VFR practice approaches but I've heard it occasionally in the soup too.
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They very often do, and well in advance, explaining that they need to make room for an incoming jet and will bring you back to an intercept from the other side.

But the other form - saying nothing as in the OP's scenario - has happened often enough as well.
 
The hard part about not turning is pyschological. Either they have forgotten about you, or something else you dont know about is wrong. Maybe your radio isnt working. Maybe its you. Now what do you do? If you ask them if they are going to turn you soon, they get snippy and say "wait your turn". Etc. It really is a problem.

If it happens, you have to transition to being turned around. Which is going to take some time. And its frustrating. Ive never had it happen in IMC, but its happened in VMC on a practice approach. Seems to do that quite frequently because most are reporting it has happened. Probably happens because Im not "really IFR". If its really IFR you are "in the system" and its built so they are less likely to forget about you.

If there were mountains, Id be tempted to declare and turn to the ILS. Screw it, Im staying on a known safe path. Planes rarely run into each other. Lot more chance of running into a mountain. Some controller vectored a guy right into a mountain up in Alaska recently. Sorry about that. If its flat as a pancake, and I know that, well thats different. Who knows whats going on. Helps to have terrain in your box. It would suck. Like I say, its never happened to me when Im on IFR clearance, just in practice.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
They very often do, and well in advance, explaining that they need to make room for an incoming jet and will bring you back to an intercept from the other side.

But the other form - saying nothing as in the OP's scenario - has happened often enough as well.
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Agree. That happened to me a couple times during my training. We couldn't have queried that controller if we'd tried - and it probably would have just made him mad anyway :D That controller was busy, man!

My instructor was commenting that I should be glad I had on foggles so as not to see the insane amounts of traffic buzzing around us!
 
Another thing that can happen sometimes is the "drop-in" or "shoe horn" vectors.

In my example from 3 weeks ago, they brought me in perpendicular to final, then gave me a couple vectors to turn me in but I was very close to the FAF on the ILS and 1000' high. Controller was talking with others. As a result, I actually intercepted GS at 9000 just before hitting the LOC (didn't descend because I wasn't cleared to) and then they told me intercept LOC, descend and maintain 8000 cleared ILS 35R contact tower, so now I'm dropping gear and flaps and descending and intercepting GS and LOC and switching freqs all in short succession - and oh by the way following a Gulfstream (caution wake turb!) and with another jet on my six (keep speed up as much as practical!).

Well ceilings were way high so tower pretty quickly sidestepped me to 35L and that was that. This may have been the plan all along - put me on the ILS just long enough to break out then get me TF out of the way? Dunno. But that was a real world approach like nothing I saw in training.
 
coloradobluesky said:
The hard part about not turning is pyschological. Either they have forgotten about you, or something else you dont know about is wrong. Maybe your radio isnt working. Maybe its you. Now what do you do? If you ask them if they are going to turn you soon, they get snippy and say "wait your turn". Etc. It really is a problem.
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That should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER be a problem.
 
I've never heard any controller say, "wait your turn" in a situation like that. They may sound snippy because they are busy....
 
Sometimes they haven't forgotten about you. Just too busy to let you know they're taking you across final for separation.
 
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