Value of a Taylorcraft

[stingray]

It has good fabric but paint is peeling in spots. Not used much for a while now last 5 years or so. I think it is like a 49 or so. Nice looking plane otherwise. I have not looked into the Spar AD yet.

I may take this on trade for work being done on other planes. What is a good value for this plane in general. ie, is it a desirable plane or a dog?

Dan

 

[Greg Bockelman]

It has good fabric but paint is peeling in spots. Not used much for a while now last 5 years or so. I think it is like a 49 or so. Nice looking plane otherwise. I have not looked into the Spar AD yet.

I may take this on trade for work being done on other planes. What is a good value for this plane in general. ie, is it a desirable plane or a dog?

Dan

Not enough info. I just sold a 41 model with an O-200 near zero SMOH, no radios, new restoration for 24. Thought it was worth more.

Range is from 15 to 22 or so.

 

[Tom-D]

They are a delight to fly, but difficult for todays size person to fit into.

Sadly, they resale at a low price, and most will not resale at the cost of a re-cover.

The Fabric never fails, it is alwways the paint. So how do you repaint over paint that is failing with out changing the fabric?

Cracking is the first sign of the paint failing due to UV light removing the elasticity of the paint and the paint can no longer flex with the fabric and then it starts to peel.

This is the main advantage to the modern fabric systems they have the UV blocker built into the paint system, NOT placed under it.

Any system that uses the reflector type of UV blocker allows the UV to go thru the paint and be reflected back out again, which only protects the fabric. not the paint.

Reflector type = silver dope, or Poly Fiber, and others who require a silver base.

Your T crate is worth about 10-15K

 

[stingray]

The Fabric never fails, it is alwways the paint. So how do you repaint over paint that is failing with out changing the fabric?

You use a steam cleaner, if you are careful it will peel the paint right off. You then put new tape on using the Stewart System glue. Eco Fill and paint. The paint is just failing on the fuselage, but it is an ugly tan and brown. I can recover it for less than $2,000.00 in materials. Hoping if I do get it I don't have to.

I will look at it better tomorrow at the EAA meeting.

Dan

 

[Graueradler]

A friend bought one and then found a wing spar problem. IIRC it is a wooden spar and was delaminated.

 

[Maxmosbey]

A friend bought one and then found a wing spar problem. IIRC it is a wooden spar and was delaminated.

There is also an AD on the wing struts, and the attaching point at the fuselage. The wing strut one is expensive to do, and the one at the attaching point can be expensive to fix. The good thing is that the one at the fuselage can be inspected pretty easily but you will have to cut the fabric 1/2 inch around the fitting. You can also get in under the floorboard to check that attaching point from another angle, however that does not preclude performing the AD and cutting the fabric from around the fitting.

 

[Tom-D]

You use a steam cleaner, if you are careful it will peel the paint right off. You then put new tape on using the Stewart System glue. Eco Fill and paint. The paint is just failing on the fuselage, but it is an ugly tan and brown. I can recover it for less than $2,000.00 in materials. Hoping if I do get it I don't have to.

I will look at it better tomorrow at the EAA meeting.

Dan

I have never tried that. How do you keep the fabric from over shrinking from the steam heat? the fabric shuld never be heated higher than 360 degrees and the steam cleaner is way beyond that.

Or for that matter, how do you keep the water from entering the interior and warping the wooden structure? Remember we bend wood by heating in hot water and holding under tention.

 

[Bob Noel]

> steam from a steam cleaner is hotter than 212 degrees F?

 

[stingray]

I have never tried that. How do you keep the fabric from over shrinking from the steam heat? the fabric shuld never be heated higher than 360 degrees and the steam cleaner is way beyond that.

Or for that matter, how do you keep the water from entering the interior and warping the wooden structure? Remember we bend wood by heating in hot water and holding under tention.

Mine goes to 220 deg only. Northern tool hot water type cleaner not the same thing as a real pro steam cleaner. I did not know what else to call it. You can set the temp down to the lowest temp needed to get he job done as well as using the right tip. (Little round tip) blow a hole right through. It is kinda like washing your car you are not just sitting in one place getting things hot. Not a lot different than when you are srinking the fabric you can bend metal if your not careful. Try it out on an old horiz stab.

Dan

 

[stingray]

There is also an AD on the wing struts, and the attaching point at the fuselage. The wing strut one is expensive to do, and the one at the attaching point can be expensive to fix. The good thing is that the one at the fuselage can be inspected pretty easily but you will have to cut the fabric 1/2 inch around the fitting. You can also get in under the floorboard to check that attaching point from another angle, however that does not preclude performing the AD and cutting the fabric from around the fitting.

He is getting me the info on the wing strut AD. I looked at it today A65 BC12D 9867. Most everything need paint because it is peeling. The silver is peeling off the fabric. The wings look OK but I would not take a chance on that. I found some corosion I think under the wing inboard of the inspection hole. between the first rib and the fuselage side around where the spar would be I think. I would have to cut the fabric to see it.

The thing is this is a very nice plane as far as interior goes, I think it is mostly leather. No radio or any other electronics. AL, AS, compas, Tach, no gyro instruments. Slip skid ball. Funny thing is it has nav lights.

Dan

 

[Dan Thomas]

> steam from a steam cleaner is hotter than 212 degrees F?

Water can be heated to much higher temperatures if it's kept under pressure, and the vapor coming off it is heated further in heating coils and then discharged. The pressure drop when in leaves the nozzle will reduce its temperature some, but it's still really hot. Steam burns can be awful.
Figures I see when googling it are as high as 320F for commercial cleaners. I think the steam temps in machinery like old steam locomotives or steamboats or steam turbine ships can be considerably hotter due to the higher pressures involved.

Dan

 

[John J]

It has good fabric but paint is peeling in spots. Not used much for a while now last 5 years or so. I think it is like a 49 or so. Nice looking plane otherwise. I have not looked into the Spar AD yet.

I may take this on trade for work being done on other planes. What is a good value for this plane in general. ie, is it a desirable plane or a dog?

Dan

Dan: Be Careful. T-Crafts need a real long pre buy for they have not been around for many years. In 1960 the price ranged from 700 to maybe at a reach of 1k They tended to be about 1 half of the cub price at that time. Now the price is in the " Eye of the Beholder" they are really nice planes to fly

Good luck and It works out

John J

 

[Maxmosbey]

He is getting me the info on the wing strut AD. I looked at it today A65 BC12D 9867. Most everything need paint because it is peeling. The silver is peeling off the fabric. The wings look OK but I would not take a chance on that. I found some corosion I think under the wing inboard of the inspection hole. between the first rib and the fuselage side around where the spar would be I think. I would have to cut the fabric to see it.

The thing is this is a very nice plane as far as interior goes, I think it is mostly leather. No radio or any other electronics. AL, AS, compas, Tach, no gyro instruments. Slip skid ball. Funny thing is it has nav lights.

Dan

Well, in those old planes there isn't anything that can't be fixed, but everything is so labor intensive. If you can find a mechanic to oversee the work while you do it, you can save a lot of money, but if you're paying a mechanic to sit there and watch the dope dry, you will spend more than it is worth. I don't know about the nav lights, but I worked on a cub this winter that had nav lights, but they weren't wired up to anything. It did have an electrical system though.

 

[Tom-D]

Mine goes to 220 deg only. Northern tool hot water type cleaner not the same thing as a real pro steam cleaner. I did not know what else to call it. You can set the temp down to the lowest temp needed to get he job done as well as using the right tip. (Little round tip) blow a hole right through. It is kinda like washing your car you are not just sitting in one place getting things hot. Not a lot different than when you are srinking the fabric you can bend metal if your not careful. Try it out on an old horiz stab.

Dan

You still didn't explane how you keep water out of the interior.

What you have written about this Tcraft says to me it needs a re-cover.

 

[Tom-D]

Water can be heated to much higher temperatures if it's kept under pressure, and the vapor coming off it is heated further in heating coils and then discharged. The pressure drop when in leaves the nozzle will reduce its temperature some, but it's still really hot. Steam burns can be awful.
Figures I see when googling it are as high as 320F for commercial cleaners. I think the steam temps in machinery like old steam locomotives or steamboats or steam turbine ships can be considerably hotter due to the higher pressures involved.

Dan

My old Diesel burner will do 600 degrees, if I choke it down, I normally run about 400 degrees to clean parts.

Remember the glue is heat activated too, it just don't sound like the thing to do.

 

[stingray]

Well, in those old planes there isn't anything that can't be fixed, but everything is so labor intensive. If you can find a mechanic to oversee the work while you do it, you can save a lot of money, but if you're paying a mechanic to sit there and watch the dope dry, you will spend more than it is worth. I don't know about the nav lights, but I worked on a cub this winter that had nav lights, but they weren't wired up to anything. It did have an electrical system though.

I am a mechanic.

Dan

 

[stingray]

You still didn't explane how you keep water out of the interior.

What you have written about this Tcraft says to me it needs a re-cover.

I look at something like this as; try and get the paint off without hurting the fabric if it doesn't work what have I lost. Fabric comes off and I start from scratch. Pull all the interior out, then blast it. Those drain holes are used for something. You cannot blow it straight down or you will go through the fabric, If you go parallel not much is going into the fabric.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

I look at something like this as; try and get the paint off without hurting the fabric if it doesn't work what have I lost. Fabric comes off and I start from scratch. Pull all the interior out, then blast it. Those drain holes are used for something. You cannot blow it straight down or you will go through the fabric, If you go parallel not much is going into the fabric.

Dan

Have you ever wondered why the FAA wrote this?

43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

(b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).

Because mechanics do thing today, that kill people later. show me how you intend to comply with this rule.

OR

43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.


What are you goibg to use as the refference ? which repair manual says to water blast the fabric? Which Approved fabric system uses this method to prepare the aircraft for their system?

I understand you work/teach in an A&P school. I hope you are not teaching young A&Ps to deviate from the manuals. or to do maintenance that will cause problems later that could kill some one.

 

[stingray]

Have you ever wondered why the FAA wrote this?

43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

(b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).

Because mechanics do thing today, that kill people later. show me how you intend to comply with this rule.

OR

43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.


What are you goibg to use as the refference ? which repair manual says to water blast the fabric? Which Approved fabric system uses this method to prepare the aircraft for their system?

I understand you work/teach in an A&P school. I hope you are not teaching young A&Ps to deviate from the manuals. or to do maintenance that will cause problems later that could kill some one.

Since Stewart Systems is approved for certified planes and they are the ones who told me how to do it I guess I will use that as reference. They were at Baraboo this year and went over quite a bit of stuff.

Not only that, but I had heard about the Jets using the steam system for removing paint also. Although I have no first hand knowlege of it, it has been used. It is in the Stewart Systems manual for using their Eco Strip.

Dan

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

Since Stewart Systems is approved for certified planes and they are the ones who told me how to do it I guess I will use that as reference. They were at Baraboo this year and went over quite a bit of stuff.

Not only that, but I had heard about the Jets using the steam system for removing paint also. Although I have no first hand knowlege of it, it has been used. It is in the Stewart Systems manual for using their Eco Strip.

Dan

Dan

I have read their manual cover to cover, it does not say to use eco strip on fabric. nor does it say loose paint can be removed by a high pressure washer and their products used after that has been done.

becarefull what you use as a refference, because that is what your PMI will use to shread your certificate.

OBTW the Stewarts are from Cashmere Wa. I talk to them often. If any one is in doubt as to what their manual says, it can be down loaded from their home page.

 

[stingray]

I have read their manual cover to cover, it does not say to use eco strip on fabric. nor does it say loose paint can be removed by a high pressure washer and their products used after that has been done.

becarefull what you use as a refference, because that is what your PMI will use to shread your certificate.

OBTW the Stewarts are from Cashmere Wa. I talk to them often. If any one is in doubt as to what their manual says, it can be down loaded from their home page.

I talked to them in person at Baraboo, was standing right there while they explaned it to a pilot that asked how to remove the paint from his plane without removing the fabric. As far as their manual goes I was refering to your mention of not using a presure washer to remove paint from a plane on the other thread (Painting a plane).

I know exactly where they are I talk to them often also.

I think you are going a little far with the acceptable methods. Acceptable method is to remove the paint before applying more. If you have to be told exactly how, are you told to go from right to left or left to right. If the fabric passes inspection once the paint is removed it passes. What your trying to say is I need a red screw driver not a green one. Don't use the black sand paper use the brown one. You cannot wash your plane with water you need to use a dry compound. Read the directions on covering with the Stewart Systems and you will see that they use water to wash the fabric before applying the EcoFill. Granted it is not a pressure washer but it is still water.

An acceptable method is (safety wiring) does not matter whether you use a plyers, drill pin, or stand there and do it by hand as long as you get the length and turns correct.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

I talked to them in person at Baraboo, was standing right there while they explaned it to a pilot that asked how to remove the paint from his plane without removing the fabric. As far as their manual goes I was refering to your mention of not using a presure washer to remove paint from a plane on the other thread (Painting a plane).

I know exactly where they are I talk to them often also.

I think you are going a little far with the acceptable methods. Acceptable method is to remove the paint before applying more. If you have to be told exactly how, are you told to go from right to left or left to right. If the fabric passes inspection once the paint is removed it passes. What your trying to say is I need a red screw driver not a green one. Don't use the black sand paper use the brown one. You cannot wash your plane with water you need to use a dry compound. Read the directions on covering with the Stewart Systems and you will see that they use water to wash the fabric before applying the EcoFill. Granted it is not a pressure washer but it is still water.

An acceptable method is (safety wiring) does not matter whether you use a plyers, drill pin, or stand there and do it by hand as long as you get the length and turns correct.

Dan

WE were talking about removing paint from fabric using a high pressure washer. IMHO that is a bad idea, because when the Stewarts wash the fabric they know the condition of the protective varnish on the wooden parts. Simply because it is new fabric they just put on and have inspected the interior of the aircraft.

You on the other hand haven't a clue as to the condition of the wood or how well it is protected, nor do you know the condition of the steel tubing or how well it is protected without removing the covers.

So, You do half the job, and in a couple years the new owner has a mess with new paint. (correction) they won't know they have a structures problem because they have new paint.

That is exactly what I had when I bought the Fairchild. 7 layers of fabric on the belly over bad repairs, rotten wood that prior A&Ps had covered over, and warped wooden parts that had been wet from water entering the envelope. steel tubing that corroded because the water could not dry because it was trapped under fabric.

You go right on with the half A$$ed repair, because the reputation you build with it will be remembered long after the aircraft is gone.

 

[stingray]

WE were talking about removing paint from fabric using a high pressure washer. IMHO that is a bad idea, because when the Stewarts wash the fabric they know the condition of the protective varnish on the wooden parts. Simply because it is new fabric they just put on and have inspected the interior of the aircraft.

You on the other hand haven't a clue as to the condition of the wood or how well it is protected, nor do you know the condition of the steel tubing or how well it is protected without removing the covers.

So, You do half the job, and in a couple years the new owner has a mess with new paint. (correction) they won't know they have a structures problem because they have new paint.

That is exactly what I had when I bought the Fairchild. 7 layers of fabric on the belly over bad repairs, rotten wood that prior A&Ps had covered over, and warped wooden parts that had been wet from water entering the envelope. steel tubing that corroded because the water could not dry because it was trapped under fabric.

You go right on with the half A$$ed repair, because the reputation you build with it will be remembered long after the aircraft is gone.

You did not do a very good prebuy on your plane.

According to you you should totally remove all fabric and inspect to make sure you are getting a new plane. Why stop there, totally remove all the rivets on a metal airplane for the same reason. You do not sound like you know much about water or moisture. Fabric is not going to trap anything. Any wood on the plane is going to absorb more moisture on a 80% humidity day than it will getting a bath on a low humid day. Two days of low humidity and air will remove any water moisture in the plane. I'll stand by my repair, it is only half a$$ed because you do not agree. If there is no reason to expect damage under the fabric... If there is reason it will come off. If the log book show that it was recently covered then the problem was just in the paint or application there of.

I think you are starting to go over the line questioning my integrity and ability to do a quality job. As I have said you do not advicate the use of pressure washers even on a metal airplane. Yet some of the best shops use this method. I have seen first hand wings that have been stripped using stripper but not pressure washed. They are nasty on the inside from the stripped paint that slid in as well as not having the crud that builds up over time cleaned out.

Disagree if you want but keep it civil. I get complaints all the time because I want to do a much better job than the customer wants.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

You did not do a very good prebuy on your plane.

I bought it as a project, for half what it was worth. I knew it needed work.

According to you you should totally remove all fabric and inspect to make sure you are getting a new plane.

That is not the point of our conversation buying a fabric aircraft requires a special approach, but this conversation was about your following proper procedures during a repair.

Why stop there, totally remove all the rivets on a metal airplane for the same reason. You do not sound like you know much about water or moisture. Fabric is not going to trap anything. Any wood on the plane is going to absorb more moisture on a 80% humidity day than it will getting a bath on a low humid day. Two days of low humidity and air will remove any water moisture in the plane. I'll stand by my repair, it is only half a$$ed because you do not agree. If there is no reason to expect damage under the fabric... If there is reason it will come off. If the log book show that it was recently covered then the problem was just in the paint or application there of.

I think you are starting to go over the line questioning my integrity and ability to do a quality job. As I have said you do not advicate the use of pressure washers even on a metal airplane. Yet some of the best shops use this method. I have seen first hand wings that have been stripped using stripper but not pressure washed. They are nasty on the inside from the stripped paint that slid in as well as not having the crud that builds up over time cleaned out.

Disagree if you want but keep it civil. I get complaints all the time because I want to do a much better job than the customer wants.

deviating from the manual is not doing a better job.Dan

I have been trying to keep it civil, but you keep wandering off the topic, and returning you to the topic is not being uncivil.

I don't believe you follow proper procedures when you advocate using a pressure washer to remove paint from a fabric surface. I do believe you will destroy more than you save.

I have never seen anyone do that, and I have never read a procedural manual that says to do anything with a pressure washer to prep a surface to be painted. we have proper chemicals etches and cleaners to do the job IAW the system procedural manuals. we do not need to deviate from proper procedures.

If I am wrong show me the manual. And I will retract my statements and admit you are the expert, but in the 50 years I have been recovering aircraft I have used about every method to do so.

I get the feeling you do not know enough about the long term effects of what you do when you wet the interior of any wooden structure. Many of these old aircraft have vintage wooden parts that are coated with varnishes developed in the 30s and 40s and has aged since then, you allow water to enter the interior and you start the rotting process that will cause a structure failure long before the exterior show any signs of aging.

The next question I have is, when you water blast the fabric to remove the exterior paint, how will you remove the primer paint that penetrated the fabric and is on the interior surface of the fabric?

will you just leave it there and scab a paint job over it?

 

[stingray]

The next question I have is, when you water blast the fabric to remove the exterior paint, how will you remove the primer paint that penetrated the fabric and is on the interior surface of the fabric?

will you just leave it there and scab a paint job over it?

I thought you said your read the Stewart System manual cover to cover many times. Stewart Systems is approved over paint. It is not a chemical bond. I do understand wood and it's properties as I used to design and manufacture wood furniture. If you think that the wood is not getting wet because you are not putting water on it you are sadly mistaken. Set that plane in a room with high humidity and it will absorb all the water it wants.

I will probably install floats on the this plane to go lake hopping, more water will enter there. Water is not the problem. If you remove the water and get it dried out you will not have any problems. This is why planes last longer in TX and AZ. It is not because it rarely rains it is because the planes dry out. If it never has a chance to dry out you will over time start to have problems.

As I have said I got this information from the manufacturer of the system I plan on using. That is considered an "Approved technique". It is acctually the way FAA askes you to do it when you can. Get the information from the source if at all possible.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

The FAA will not ask what the manufacturer said, they will ask why you did not follow the manual.

Do you even know what system is on the T crate?

The pictures below are what water does to wood and steel over time. and you want to repaint and save a few bucks by not removing the fabric..

I call that type of job a paint repair, and will be more problems for some unsuspecting owner in the future. It is these types of repairs that give the fabric aircraft a bad name and add fuel to the old wives tales that fabric aircraft must be kept in the hangar.

Now I believe you should know my feelings fo poor quality workmenship, So I've said my piece and am outta here hopping that the IA at annual time is sharp enought to catch the problems.

 

[stingray]

The FAA will not ask what the manufacturer said, they will ask why you did not follow the manual.

Do you even know what system is on the T crate?

The pictures below are what water does to wood and steel over time. and you want to repaint and save a few bucks by not removing the fabric..

I call that type of job a paint repair, and will be more problems for some unsuspecting owner in the future. It is these types of repairs that give the fabric aircraft a bad name and add fuel to the old wives tales that fabric aircraft must be kept in the hangar.

Now I believe you should know my feelings fo poor quality workmenship, So I've said my piece and am outta here hopping that the IA at annual time is sharp enought to catch the problems.

Like I said you have not looked at the log books. You do not know if the plane was just recovered, neither do I for that matter (Yet). If there is a reason to recover it I will. Now you are going back to the "You need to remove the cover to see what is under it." I say to that, Why don't you remove all the rivets in an aluminum plane to see what is under that?

What difference does it make what system is on the T crate? Stewart Systems goes over anything.

The FAA will ask what the manufacturer said. It is the place to go BEFORE you just go by the Accepted Practices.

Tube and fabric planes get a bad rap because owners do not keep the plane in proper repair (By painting it when needed) The fabric does not keep the rain out the finish does. If owners would just repair the plane when needed it would not need recovering. Stewart Systems has a lifetime of 30 years I believe. Are you going to rip the fabric off just to be sure.

This plane has sat in a hangar most of it's life, It has not been flown much since it was recovered. You can tell a lot by a plane without taking the cover off. Once you have worked on many tube and fabric airplanes it is not that hard to know what to look for. It is not that hard to look for them period otherwise the AI would be required to remove the fabric each year to check.

With a good paint job and regular maintenance a tube and fabric plane does not need to be in a hangar.

I think you need to rethink your "poor quality workmanship" I call taking cover that is 90% good off when there is no evidence of rot or corrosion. Jamming it to the customer. I'm sorry sir I know you just had this recovered 2 years ago but I want to make sure that there is no rust on the fuselage. I understand that it was just blasted and painted and all the wood was replaced. I just want to make sure. I know the plane is only worth $10,000.00 and a recover will cost almost that but I just want to make sure.

You continue to question my ethics if not my workmanship. You know nothing about me, and certainly do not know about my workmanship.

It is far worse to remove a cover on a plane that does not need it as far as the flying community goes. Just gives a bad name to the mechanics that do not do unnecessary work.

Dan

 

[Dan Thomas]

Like I said you have not looked at the log books. You do not know if the plane was just recovered, neither do I for that matter (Yet). If there is a reason to recover it I will. Now you are going back to the "You need to remove the cover to see what is under it." I say to that, Why don't you remove all the rivets in an aluminum plane to see what is under that?

What difference does it make what system is on the T crate? Stewart Systems goes over anything.

The FAA will ask what the manufacturer said. It is the place to go BEFORE you just go by the Accepted Practices.


Dan

Better check with the FAA about all that. Stewart Systems will be an STC'd system, and STC certification will probably require in the US (as it does here in Canada) that the WHOLE system be used, from the fabric and cement up to the topcoats. This applies to any fabric/paint other than what the aircraft was originally certified with unless the airframe manufacturer has obtained some other sort of certification since manufacture. So applying Stewart finishes over non-Stewart fabric can result in an uncertifiable job, and the customer really gets hosed.


Dan

 

[stingray]

Better check with the FAA about all that. Stewart Systems will be an STC'd system, and STC certification will probably require in the US (as it does here in Canada) that the WHOLE system be used, from the fabric and cement up to the topcoats. This applies to any fabric/paint other than what the aircraft was originally certified with unless the airframe manufacturer has obtained some other sort of certification since manufacture. So applying Stewart finishes over non-Stewart fabric can result in an uncertifiable job, and the customer really gets hosed.


Dan

It is an STC System and it can go over anything. It is the only system that is approved for a patch repair without attaching to anything or any stitching. It is not a chemical bond. All others are chemical bond and the reason they have to use the same components.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

Just to clarify for those who do not understand paint systems on fabric covered aircraft.

Stewarts system can be applied over any well adhered underlying paint system if properly prepared.

What Dan doesn't understand is, the underlying paint on his project is not well adhered, we can tell that but Dan's prior posts when he says it is cracking and peeling.

After paint has become brittle and can't flex with the fabric, the primer that has enveloped the Ceconite will separate into two sheets, one on top of the fabric that we see peeling, and one on the back side which will still be there after he removes the top sheet of paint.

Eco primer needs (as all primers do) to penetrate the fabric and link over on the back side to complete the encapsulation of the ceconite, If it does not do this it will not attach itself to the fabric, because Ceconite is a Dupont dacron nothing sticks to dacron because it is in the teflon family and will not allow any chemical bond.

No chemical bond ever occurs in any system to attach the paint to the ceconite. all systems require full penetration to encapsulate the fabric for a long lasting cover job.

This can't happen the way Dan is doing the job, simply because the primrer that is on the back of the fabric is still there.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Eco primer needs (as all primers do) to penetrate the fabric and link over on the back side to complete the encapsulation of the ceconite, If it does not do this it will not attach itself to the fabric, because Ceconite is a Dupont dacron nothing sticks to dacron because it is in the teflon family and will not allow any chemical bond.

No chemical bond ever occurs in any system to attach the paint to the ceconite. all systems require full penetration to encapsulate the fabric for a long lasting cover job.

Makes sense to me. Stuff on the backside is going to make the whole effort a waste of time and money.

I had some bad experience with the Blue River waterborne finishes. I hope Stewart's is something much better. Blue River doesn't even make aircraft finishes anymore, perhaps because they were so troublesome.


Dan

 

[Tom-D]

Makes sense to me. Stuff on the backside is going to make the whole effort a waste of time and money.

I had some bad experience with the Blue River waterborne finishes. I hope Stewart's is something much better. Blue River doesn't even make aircraft finishes anymore, perhaps because they were so troublesome.


Dan

I have no experience with any Blue River products.

But the Stewarts primer for metal, and their cleaners are the best I have found. I can spray the primer right from the can and wash up with soap and water. no thinners or catlyst needed. it drys in about 15 minutes and can be wet sanded then.

I had a problem with their top coat, I could not keep it from fish eyeing, until I stopped using anything plastic to mix in, and started to use metal cans that had been cleaned with their red cleaner and etched with their eco etch.

Then all was well.

 

[stingray]

Just to clarify for those who do not understand paint systems on fabric covered aircraft.

Stewarts system can be applied over any well adhered underlying paint system if properly prepared.

What Dan doesn't understand is, the underlying paint on his project is not well adhered, we can tell that but Dan's prior posts when he says it is cracking and peeling.

After paint has become brittle and can't flex with the fabric, the primer that has enveloped the Ceconite will separate into two sheets, one on top of the fabric that we see peeling, and one on the back side which will still be there after he removes the top sheet of paint.

Eco primer needs (as all primers do) to penetrate the fabric and link over on the back side to complete the encapsulation of the ceconite, If it does not do this it will not attach itself to the fabric, because Ceconite is a Dupont dacron nothing sticks to dacron because it is in the teflon family and will not allow any chemical bond.

No chemical bond ever occurs in any system to attach the paint to the ceconite. all systems require full penetration to encapsulate the fabric for a long lasting cover job.

This can't happen the way Dan is doing the job, simply because the primrer that is on the back of the fabric is still there.

Again this is not true, When you apply glue the the fabric it seals the fabric so nothing is going to get through. The Eco fill works just great. Also using the pressure washer will remove all paint and sealants from the front and back.

I did a test of this on an old Bellanca elevator. It took 30 sec to remove the paint leaving the silver coating (attached well to the fabric) It took a little longer to get the silver off but it comes off. First you peal off the tapes then use the water stream like a putty knife to lift the silver off. What you have when you get done is nothing but fabric glued to the structure. This you blow dry with forced air. Inspect for corrosion. To inspect suspect spots, you could even cut the fabric if needed. Let the assembly dry completely. glue new tapes on using Stewart Systems glue. This gives you the required glue joint for certified aircraft. Apply Ecofill and paint.

Keep in mind this is a repair NOT a restoration. If the customer wants a restoration he can have that if he wants. This is a certified repair just as any other repair. It is logged as such. Nothing hidden.

What I don't understand is how NC19143 can tell what this plane is like from Washington, he has never even seen it. He knows nothing about the plane it's books or maintenance. I have said before if the fabric is not in good shape to repaint for any reason it will be replaced. Telling a customer that because some paint is pealing is reason for a recover is not acceptable to me. This is about the same as telling a customer that he needs to replace a whole panel on a metal airplane because it needs repair. Patch's do not look great but not everyone can afford a restoration.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

What I don't understand is how NC19143 can tell what this plane is like from Washington, he has never even seen it. He knows nothing about the plane it's books or maintenance..

Dan

Because it is "A" typical of old fabric systems failure. and the cure for it is not a what you are doing.

All repairs to after market systems are made IAW that system procedural manuals. That is a requirement of the certification to include ICAs.

Show me where the Stewart manual tells you how to repair the Poly Fiber system? or any other.

43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

Show me any other method approved by the Administrator ?

That is the whole point behind ICAs they require the A&P to follow repair procedures for after market products.

 

[stingray]

Because it is "A" typical of old fabric systems failure. and the cure for it is not a what you are doing.

All repairs to after market systems are made IAW that system procedural manuals. That is a requirement of the certification to include ICAs.

Show me where the Stewart manual tells you how to repair the Poly Fiber system? or any other.

43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

Show me any other method approved by the Administrator ?

That is the whole point behind ICAs they require the A&P to follow repair procedures for after market products.

OK I just spent 1/2 hrs with Dan Stewart on the phone this morning.

He confirmed everything I said, saying also that they have done numerous repaints.

He also said that they just finished working with the Feds just before leaving for Oshkosh. Their system is approved for REPAIR on any other type of system. Dan Stewart said that the STC is a start to finish system You cannot start one system and finish with another (Following the STC) but once the other system is complete you can REPAIR it with the Stewart System, this will be documented with-in two weeks. Plus I have Doug Stewart an IA sending me an email detailing what I just told you.

If you are really concerned and you talk to Dan or Doug as much as you say, you would know this. For someone that uses the Stewart System you are doing them a dis-service by discounting what they have worked so hard for. I might add one of the things that impressed me the most about Dan and Doug was the quality of their work. They would not do something if it was not in the best interest of the owner.

If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

Stewart Systems "Manufacturer" Explained the use of the pressure washer as recommended equipment. So I guess I MUST use that equipment.

By the way to the other poster. Stewart Systems is not the same as the old Blue River. Yes they are both water based and or water born but that is where the similarity ends. It would be like comparing enamel paint made years ago to the paint you buy today. They are basically the same system but have many new improvements.

Dan

 

[Trapper John]

Show me any other method approved by the Administrator ?

That is the whole point behind ICAs they require the A&P to follow repair procedures for after market products.

I tried to download the manual from Stewart's website, but no workey...what does the official manual say about acceptable methods of paint removal?


Trapper John

 

[Tom-D]

I tried to download the manual from Stewart's website, but no workey...what does the official manual say about acceptable methods of paint removal?


Trapper John

Nothing it is all about replacing and how to.

But as to the problem of not being able to down load the manual is ( I HOPE) because they are updating their manual.

I will reserve comment on what it says until after I read it.

 

[Tom-D]

OK I just spent 1/2 hrs with Dan Stewart on the phone this morning.

He confirmed everything I said, saying also that they have done numerous repaints.

He also said that they just finished working with the Feds just before leaving for Oshkosh. Their system is approved for REPAIR on any other type of system. Dan Stewart said that the STC is a start to finish system You cannot start one system and finish with another (Following the STC) but once the other system is complete you can REPAIR it with the Stewart System, this will be documented with-in two weeks. Plus I have Doug Stewart an IA sending me an email detailing what I just told you.

If you are really concerned and you talk to Dan or Doug as much as you say, you would know this. For someone that uses the Stewart System you are doing them a dis-service by discounting what they have worked so hard for. I might add one of the things that impressed me the most about Dan and Doug was the quality of their work. They would not do something if it was not in the best interest of the owner.

If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

Stewart Systems "Manufacturer" Explained the use of the pressure washer as recommended equipment. So I guess I MUST use that equipment.

By the way to the other poster. Stewart Systems is not the same as the old Blue River. Yes they are both water based and or water born but that is where the similarity ends. It would be like comparing enamel paint made years ago to the paint you buy today. They are basically the same system but have many new improvements.

Dan

I am delighted that they have gained yet another approval,

BUT

until such time as they update their manual, you still have no approved data to reference the repair. Phone calls don't count

You are aboslutely correct about the glue, it completely encapsulates the fabric but it gains no chemical bond, so if the top coat is removed the back side will still be there, and it can't get a grip on the fabric.

The Stewarts and I both have the same FSDO to talk to, I am also an A&P-IA.

The repair you are doing must have a 337 made out as a major repair, what will you write in Block 8 ?

 

[stingray]

I tried to download the manual from Stewart's website, but no workey...what does the official manual say about acceptable methods of paint removal?


Trapper John

When I asked Dan about that he said that is up to the mechanic. He can remove it any way he chooses. Procedure would be (remove paint). They do not say that "If you remove paint with a pressure washer" our system will not work. That is how they do it at Stewart Systems as I understand it. Doug is an AI. They have done many repaints as I understand it also.

Dan

 

[stingray]

I am delighted that they have gained yet another approval,

BUT

until such time as they update their manual, you still have no approved data to reference the repair. Phone calls don't count

You are aboslutely correct about the glue, it completely encapsulates the fabric but it gains no chemical bond, so if the top coat is removed the back side will still be there, and it can't get a grip on the fabric.

The Stewarts and I both have the same FSDO to talk to, I am also an A&P-IA.

The repair you are doing must have a 337 made out as a major repair, what will you write in Block 8 ?

I highly doubt I will get to it in the next two weeks.

Dan