Value of a Taylorcraft

For those who are interested these are pretty good reads

http://www.polyfiber.com/techquestions/fabricrepairs/index.htm

http://www.airtechcoatings.com/faq.html

notice the first 2 words in the PDF?

http://www.airtechcoatings.com/documents/Fabric Covering Manual.pdf

notice the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness.

http://www.airtechcoatings.com/documents/Fabric Repair HowTo.pdf

Which do you think take presidence, the Original manufacturers ICAs or any other manufactuers manual?

Repairing Ceconite Fabric - Dealing with casual and major damageThe Ceconite manual gives the proper fabric repair methods, and it refers to FAA Advisory Circular 43-13-1B, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, ...

I could not find a link to the Ceconite manual in PDF so

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/cecmanual.php

AS you can see each system has its own methods to repair or replace, it will be interesting to see how the Stewarts got around that.
 
NC19143 said:
For those who are interested these are pretty good reads

http://www.polyfiber.com/techquestions/fabricrepairs/index.htm

http://www.airtechcoatings.com/faq.html

notice the first 2 words in the PDF?

http://www.airtechcoatings.com/documents/Fabric Covering Manual.pdf

notice the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness.

http://www.airtechcoatings.com/documents/Fabric Repair HowTo.pdf

Which do you think take presidence, the Original manufacturers ICAs or any other manufactuers manual?

Repairing Ceconite Fabric - Dealing with casual and major damageThe Ceconite manual gives the proper fabric repair methods, and it refers to FAA Advisory Circular 43-13-1B, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, ...

I could not find a link to the Ceconite manual in PDF so

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/cecmanual.php

AS you can see each system has its own methods to repair or replace, it will be interesting to see how the Stewarts got around that.
Click to expand...

What about a major repair?
>If you have dinged an entire wingtip as an example, you will probably have to recover a large area. You can cement a large piece of fabric over the old fabric using a minimum of 1 inch overlap. You must then rib lace or attach the new fabric to the wing. Then build up the entire panel just as you would new fabric.

They got around this because they have shown that the Stewart System is so superior that they do not need to stitch it to get a bond.

They also got approved to go over any other system because they have shown for the past 7 years that there has been no ill effects using the Stewart System over other systems. According to Dan that is a quote from the FAA.

Why would say Polyfiber tell you to use anyone elses system to do a repair other than their own. That is just marketing. "You could either use our system which requires more work or Stewart Systems which is much easier".

We have come full circle now from bashing me to bashing Stewart Systems. That is just so sad.

Dan
 
stingray said:
We have come full circle now from bashing me to bashing Stewart Systems. That is just so sad.
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I've been reading this, post by post, from the start. Sometimes it's easier to just quit participating in a thread no matter if you were wrong or not. it has worked well for me.
 
stingray said:
What about a major repair?
>If you have dinged an entire wingtip as an example, you will probably have to recover a large area. You can cement a large piece of fabric over the old fabric using a minimum of 1 inch overlap. You must then rib lace or attach the new fabric to the wing. Then build up the entire panel just as you would new fabric.

They got around this because they have shown that the Stewart System is so superior that they do not need to stitch it to get a bond.

They also got approved to go over any other system because they have shown for the past 7 years that there has been no ill effects using the Stewart System over other systems. According to Dan that is a quote from the FAA.

Why would say Polyfiber tell you to use anyone elses system to do a repair other than their own. That is just marketing. "You could either use our system which requires more work or Stewart Systems which is much easier".

We have come full circle now from bashing me to bashing Stewart Systems. That is just so sad.

Dan
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show me where I bashed the Stewatrs system?

you read way too much into the post that isn't there.,

I'm out
 
jesse said:
I've been reading this, post by post, from the start. Sometimes it's easier to just quit participating in a thread no matter if you were wrong or not. it has worked well for me.
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I'll take that as a hint and quit. I just hated to leave things undone.

Dan
 
It doesn't really matter anyway. Most likely a thorough inspection will necessitate a recover.
 
Just an update, About half done with the prebuy annual. All the paint and UV protection is coming off with just an air blower. This is just on the fuselage. It will not come off the wings or ailerons. It has Stits polyfiber system on it. It was covered not long ago and has very little time on the fabric flying hrs wise. Sit's in a hanger. I still have to crawl back into the fuselage but so far everything looks good. I think the person that did the recover did something wrong on the fuselage applying the UV protection.

Dan
 
stingray said:
I think the person that did the recover did something wrong on the fuselage applying the UV protection.

Dan
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A couple of possibilities: They might have sprayed the Poly-Brush on the first couple of coats instead of brushing it as the manual demands. Spraying it doesn't force it right through the weave to encapsulate it, and it ends up sitting on the surface and will fall off easily. The other possibility, if the Poly-Brush (pink) is still there but some of the Poly-Spray (gray) comes off with the topcoats, they didn't clean the surface of the Poly-Spray adequately after wet-sanding it. Any debris left behind provides a "shear layer," as the manual calls it, that will let the subsequent coats fall off.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
A couple of possibilities: They might have sprayed the Poly-Brush on the first couple of coats instead of brushing it as the manual demands. Spraying it doesn't force it right through the weave to encapsulate it, and it ends up sitting on the surface and will fall off easily. The other possibility, if the Poly-Brush (pink) is still there but some of the Poly-Spray (gray) comes off with the topcoats, they didn't clean the surface of the Poly-Spray adequately after wet-sanding it. Any debris left behind provides a "shear layer," as the manual calls it, that will let the subsequent coats fall off.

Dan
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The Poly-Brush (Pink) is attached very well. It does not seem to be that thick and does have some noticeable runs (very small). Is there a time limit on how long you have before you apply the Poly-Spray. To me it seems like they waited too long before applying the Grey. The last thing you metioned is what it has done. Really nice pink layer nothing attached to it. I brushed some EcoFill over it and will test it later tomorrow. (small patch).

Dan
 
stingray said:
Just an update, About half done with the prebuy annual. All the paint and UV protection is coming off with just an air blower. This is just on the fuselage. It will not come off the wings or ailerons. It has Stits polyfiber system on it. It was covered not long ago and has very little time on the fabric flying hrs wise. Sit's in a hanger. I still have to crawl back into the fuselage but so far everything looks good. I think the person that did the recover did something wrong on the fuselage applying the UV protection.

Dan
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How much color do you have showing on the inside of the fabric?
 
NC19143 said:
How much color do you have showing on the inside of the fabric?
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I will get some pictures tomorrow. It all looks kinda pink very light. You can tell the difference because of the spots that have those small runs are darker.

Dan
 
stingray said:
I will get some pictures tomorrow. It all looks kinda pink very light. You can tell the difference because of the spots that have those small runs are darker.

Dan
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It should have a constant skin on the fabric on the inside. The most often made mistake with Poly Faber is the first coat is not thin enough, and or it was not applied correctly, causing no penetration.

If it ain't done right, or If I thought it wasn't, I'd pull the Fabric and start over.

The fuselage is not that difficult, or expensive to re-do. and the effect of "I wonder if it will all off" goes away.
 
stingray said:
The Poly-Brush (Pink) is attached very well. It does not seem to be that thick and does have some noticeable runs (very small). Is there a time limit on how long you have before you apply the Poly-Spray. To me it seems like they waited too long before applying the Grey. (small patch).

Dan
Click to expand...

There is a time limit, and the manual has advice on how to deal with that. I don't have the manual here, but I'm doing a Citabria with the system right now and have flight control surfaces that have been sitting almost too long now with just Poly-Brush on them and will have to freshen them up before applying anything more.

Dan
 
NC19143 said:
Just to clarify for those who do not understand paint systems on fabric covered aircraft.

Stewarts system can be applied over any well adhered underlying paint system if properly prepared.

What Dan doesn't understand is, the underlying paint on his project is not well adhered, we can tell that but Dan's prior posts when he says it is cracking and peeling.

After paint has become brittle and can't flex with the fabric, the primer that has enveloped the Ceconite will separate into two sheets, one on top of the fabric that we see peeling, and one on the back side which will still be there after he removes the top sheet of paint.

Eco primer needs (as all primers do) to penetrate the fabric and link over on the back side to complete the encapsulation of the ceconite, If it does not do this it will not attach itself to the fabric, because Ceconite is a Dupont dacron nothing sticks to dacron because it is in the teflon family and will not allow any chemical bond.

No chemical bond ever occurs in any system to attach the paint to the ceconite. all systems require full penetration to encapsulate the fabric for a long lasting cover job.

This can't happen the way Dan is doing the job, simply because the primrer that is on the back of the fabric is still there.
Click to expand...

The bold is my emphasis. Dacron is not in the teflon family. Dacron is a polyester. Teflon is a long chain fluorocarbon.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There is a time limit, and the manual has advice on how to deal with that. I don't have the manual here, but I'm doing a Citabria with the system right now and have flight control surfaces that have been sitting almost too long now with just Poly-Brush on them and will have to freshen them up before applying anything more.

Dan
Click to expand...

That is really what it looks like. I found the log books in the hanger. Covered between 1980 and 1984. It took that long. Fuselage inspected ready for cover 1980. Feb 1983 Both wings instpected and ready for cover. July 1984 inspected recover and accepted. So it looks like the fuselange was indeed covered first then sat around. The plane has been in a hangar since the recover acctually it's whole life. TTAF 1336. I crawled back into the fuselage (Not an easy task and I'm only 5'5") It looks like the day it came out of the factory. I am having someone come over with a borescope also to check closer in the tail section. We fired it up yesterday and it sounded good. about 320 SMOH.

I also found a entry or receipt for engine work back in 50 something. $75.00 labor to rebuild engine. $65.00 parts.:hairraise: I need a time machine.

The grey spot on the horizontal is the EcoFill. I blew air at it from all directions it is not comming off.

edit: by the way it was covered with ceconite I also found a receipt for poly-brush.

Dan
 

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stingray said:
The grey spot on the horizontal is the EcoFill. I blew air at it from all directions it is not comming off.
Dan
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Use a piece of fuel cell tape, (the stuff you put in the wings before replacing the fuel cells in a Cessna) press it onto the ecofill and warm it with a hair dryer.. press again, allow to cool and try pulling it off, it pulls the ecofill off I would not use it.
 
NC19143 said:
Read:

http://heritage.dupont.com/touchpoints/tp_1950/overview.shtml

Dacron is the Dupont trade name for its polyester fabric. Nylon dacron teflon are all in the polyester family. nothing sticks to them.
Click to expand...

Sorry friend- no ester linkages in PTFE (initials for the Teflon brand- poly tetrafluoroethylene). No ester linkages (bonds), it can't be a polyester.

Nylon isn't a polyester either- it is a polyamide where the link between monomers is a nitrogen rather than the oxygen in the polyester.

They are all polymers though- I think that's what you mean to say.
 
I took the rear horz, vertical, elevators, and rudder off. Took them home to re-tape them. I tried to pressure wash the EcoFill off and it would not come off the pink, the pink came off the fabric and not very easy at that.

I called Stewart Systems again and they said that their product does not have to encapsulate anything. Surface adhesion is all. It will however encapsulate on new fabric. They said no problem in doing what I am doing. It is what their product is for.

Dan
 
This fabric and polytack sat how long with out any UV protection?
 
NC19143 said:
This fabric and polytack sat how long with out any UV protection?
Click to expand...

I have no knowledge as to how long it is just a guess as the person that worked on it is no longer living. It was inside though.

Dan
 
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