USSpace Force editorial

LOL. Love a good Shatner rant.

Plus how does anybody get anything done without Master Chiefs anyway? They’re the ones who actually know how to run the ship!
 
On the serious side, they never should have set up Space Force with military ranks.

Prime reason for military structure is to provide a legal basis for taking action against those who do not follow orders, or those to decide things are becoming dangerous and wish to absence themselves (i.e., desert). Space Force operates all its assets remotely, everyone (usually) goes home every night.

Space Force does not need file closers. Implement a GS-type rank structure and let people quit if they want to. Might be more appealing to recent college grads if they don't have to commit to nearly half a decade of service.

Might need to implement some sort of commission for Mission Directors who might have to authorize use of combat capabilities in US spacecraft. Otherwise, 30 minutes after the start of the next war, the US Space Order of Battle will be dust, and you might as well just send the people home.

Ron Wanttaja
 
To be fair Ron, all of this same stuff has been done for decades now in a legacy military uniform, especially so in the last 10 (as you are probably aware). Politics aside, making them their own was a way of pulling them out from underneath someone else's budget umbrella. I think you are correct though in the assessment that attracting talent in cyber/engineering/space probably is not enhanced by affiliating with the armed forces lifestyle.
 
I was one of those doing that stuff in a legacy military uniform. :-)

I've posted in the past the reasons I support an independent space command. I just feel they should transition to an organizational structure that is NOT optimized for drafting thousands of men, of all backgrounds and levels of intelligence, training them in rigid patterns, and forcing them into combat with severe penalties if they decline to participate.

Just because it worked for Ulysses S. Grant does not make it right for running satellites 22,000 miles away....

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
I just feel they should transition to an organizational structure that is NOT optimized for drafting thousands of men,

Ron Wanttaja
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And women. Don’t forget women.
 
Colonels command brigades, Captains command ships. Shatner is right!;)
 
That was excellent. I had no idea Shatner had such a great sense of humor.
 
But look at the rank insignia... colonels are captains, and captains command, but then captains are really lieutenants, and commanders are lieutenant colonels, and... uh... oh, never mind.
 
From the article...

There’s Major Anthony Nelson — who piloted a spacecraft that came crashing down next to a deserted island where he found an ancient bottle that contained a woman named Jeannie and brought the attention of Colonel Alfred Bellows to him for his crazy antics at NASA.
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Actually, Tony was a captain when he crashed landed on the island and found Jeannie in the bottle...
 
JOhnH said:
And women. Don’t forget women.
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I seldom do. :-)

But in the US, at least, we've never done so. I suspect the system would have a lot of trouble in a massive call-up where half the draftees were women. Major lack of female cadre.

I know Israeli women are required to serve, but am not familiar with any other countries with female conscription. 800,000 women served in the Soviet military in the Great Patriotic War, but don't believe their service was mandatory.

Ron Wanttaja
 
steingar said:
If you have Netflix do watch Space Force. It is a really funny show.
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Watched one episode, didn't care for it.

It wasn't the space ops technical details. I just get tired of TV shows and movies where the writer's only experience with the military is watching episodes of MASH or Hogan's Heroes. It really grates on me when they get the fundamentals wrong. Bad salutes really set me off....

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
but am not familiar with any other countries with female conscription.
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When I lived in Bolivia in the late 90s there was a "pre-military service" requirement for young women in certain regions.
 
Drivel like this is what comes after the Military Times (and its sister rag the Defense News) axed the entire news staff back in mid-March.
 
wanttaja said:
800,000 women served in the Soviet military in the Great Patriotic War, but don't believe their service was mandatory.

Ron Wanttaja
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Saying something wasn’t mandatory in Stalin’s Russia is a bit of an oxymoron.

Cheers
 
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Great Patriotic War = WWII, the previous patriotic war was repelling Napoleon.

The 1936 (Stalin) Constitution made military service the "sacred duty" of all citizens. However, formal conscription during the war was limited to able-bodied MEN of ages 18 through 51.
 
Just out of curiosity, I watched the first four episodes of Space Force last night. That's about all I could take. I'm sure the middle school crowd thinks it's just as funny as hell.
 
Jim K said:
That was excellent. I had no idea Shatner had such a great sense of humor.
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Ever watch "Boston Legal?" If not..give it a shot. Shatner was wonderful .... "Denny Crane!"
 
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MuseChaser said:
Ever watch "Boston Legal?" If not..give it a shot. Shatter was wonderful .... "Denny Crane!"
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Now that you mention it...I remember that show. My parents loved it, and I saw a few episodes and remember enjoying it. I guess I shouldn't be so surprised...Captain Kirk wasn't exactly the most serious role, was it
 
DaleB said:
Just out of curiosity, I watched the first four episodes of Space Force last night. That's about all I could take. I'm sure the middle school crowd thinks it's just as funny as hell.
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I couldn't make it through the first episode. Much infantile. Very pander.
 
Speaking of Captains, Look up Captain Video and the Video Rangers. Watched on a 7” B&W TV.


Cheers
 
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As a USAF vet and alumnus of the 6596th Instrumentation Squadron at Vandenberg Tracking Station from March, 1962 to May, 1964 supporting WS-117L, the polar orbiting reconnaissance satellite programs (Corona, MIDAS, SAMOS) for our then secret client, the NRO, and lifetime member of the Air Force Association, I think creation of the Space Force was a political stunt, a waste of taxpayer money, and not justified by any rational thought process. Over the decades I've watched multiple reorganizations of the Air Force space functions and migrations from Air Research and Development Command to Air Force Systems Command and then to Air Force Space Command which did make a lot of sense, but creating a new branch of the military under the USAF for what amounts to ego stroking and then arguing over whether the ranks should stay with essentially the Army and Air Force system or changing to the Navy system is nutz (IMHO). The functions migrating to the Space Force - including space reconnaissance, GPS, space-based communications, cyber, etc. - worked just fine under the Space Command.

The argument that the USAF becoming a separate branch in 1947 is a precedent for creating the Space Force is specious; there was a history of the Army's neglect of the AAF in budgeting and management that really didn't exist as a justification for creating the Space Force.
 
Stan Cooper said:
As a USAF vet and alumnus of the 6596th Instrumentation Squadron at Vandenberg Tracking Station from March, 1962 to May, 1964 supporting WS-117L, the polar orbiting reconnaissance satellite programs (Corona, MIDAS, SAMOS) for our then secret client, the NRO, and lifetime member of the Air Force Association, I think creation of the Space Force was a political stunt, a waste of taxpayer money, and not justified by any rational thought process.
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I largely agree. But with my experience somewhat more recent (Defense Support Program 1977-1981, space system development/operations with Boeing from 1981-2017), I still think Space Command as a separate entity is necessary...albeit its creation was flawed.

In the Air Force, aircraft programs have fiscal priority, and, career-wise, PILOTS have priority. If there are two candidates for a job, and one is a pilot, the non-pilot has to be a water-walker to get it. This dead-ends, career-wise, otherwise qualified individuals.

You rarely see an Air Force general without pilot wings. The highest-ranking Air Force officer in Space Command is the chief of staff, a brigadier general. No doubt a very qualified individual...but if you look at his list of assignments, his first experience involving space operations is his current one...a command slot. He flew airplanes prior to Space Command, for 25 years. Was there, perhaps, an engineer non-rated O-6 passed over for promotion who might understand space operations better?

Stan Cooper said:
The argument that the USAF becoming a separate branch in 1947 is a precedent for creating the Space Force is specious; there was a history of the Army's neglect of the AAF in budgeting and management that really didn't exist as a justification for creating the Space Force.
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And a lot of Army generals and Navy admirals made the same arguments that a separate Air Force was unnecessary. If not for WWII, the Air Force would probably have never existed. But it was the budgetary and command issues raised during the war that provided the justification.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
I largely agree. But with my experience somewhat more recent (Defense Support Program 1977-1981, space system development/operations with Boeing from 1981-2017), I still think Space Command as a separate entity is necessary...albeit its creation was flawed.

In the Air Force, aircraft programs have fiscal priority, and, career-wise, PILOTS have priority. If there are two candidates for a job, and one is a pilot, the non-pilot has to be a water-walker to get it. This dead-ends, career-wise, otherwise qualified individuals.

You rarely see an Air Force general without pilot wings. The highest-ranking Air Force officer in Space Command is the chief of staff, a brigadier general. No doubt a very qualified individual...but if you look at his list of assignments, his first experience involving space operations is his current one...a command slot. He flew airplanes prior to Space Command, for 25 years. Was there, perhaps, an engineer non-rated O-6 passed over for promotion who might understand space operations better?



And a lot of Army generals and Navy admirals made the same arguments that a separate Air Force was unnecessary. If not for WWII, the Air Force would probably have never existed. But it was the budgetary and command issues raised during the war that provided the justification.

Ron Wanttaja
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I was a civilian contractor when Hyten (head of US Space Command) was about to get his next posting. He really, REALLY wanted USAF CoF...wasn't going to happen. The others in my group (all civ, first time working in the DOD) couldn't understand why he didn't get it (besides his stupid and very public comments about programs under his command). Real simple - Harvard grad & he's not a driver. Brilliant at space & cyberspace, but not airspace. So he ended up in Omaha, and is now Vice CoF. He'll probably retire from there.
 
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wanttaja said:
The highest-ranking Air Force officer in Space Command is the chief of staff, a brigadier general. No doubt a very qualified individual...but if you look at his list of assignments, his first experience involving space operations is his current one...a command slot.

Ron Wanttaja
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Ron, I have tremendous respect for you, but I have to question the statement above. My June, 2018, issue of the Air Force Association's Air Force Magazine (the USAF annual almanac issue) lists Gen. John W. "Jay" Raymond as Commander, Air Force Space Command. General Raymond was promoted to General (4-star) on October 25, 2016, a couple of years before the Space Force was a serious proposal. His current position as Commander, U.S. Space Force became effective December 20, 2019.

Going back nearly 20 years to the 2001 almanac issue, the commander of Air Force Space Command was Gen. Ralph E. Eberhart, who was promoted to 4-star on August 1, 1997, and was a command pilot. When was the highest ranking officer in AFSPC a brigadier general?
 
Stan Cooper said:
wanttaja said:
The highest-ranking Air Force officer in Space Command is the chief of staff, a brigadier general.
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Ron, I have tremendous respect for you, but I have to question the statement above. My June, 2018, issue of the Air Force Association's Air Force Magazine (the USAF annual almanac issue) lists Gen. John W. "Jay" Raymond as Commander, Air Force Space Command.
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Current Space Command web page shows General James Dickinson as commander, and Brigadier General Brook Leonard as the Chief of Staff.

https://www.spacecom.mil/About/Leadership/

General Dickinson is indeed a four-star, but he's an ARMY four-star. I assumed the COS would be the next highest-ranking officer in Space Command.

In any case, do a search for "Air Force generals" and count the wingless ones. They're there, but few.

murphey said:
I was a civilian contractor when Hyten (head of US Space Command) was about to get his next posting. He really, REALLY wanted USAF CoF...wasn't going to happen. The others in my group (all civ, first time working in the DOD) couldn't understand why he didn't get it (besides his stupid and very public comments about programs under his command). Real simple - Harvard grad & he's not a driver. Brilliant at space & cyberspace, but not airspace. So he ended up in Omaha, and is not Vice CoF. He'll probably retire from there.
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When I was on active duty in space operations ~40 years ago, most of the section heads were pilots. Few wanted to be there, this was either a required "career broadening" tour for them, or they were put in place to serve out the remainder of their 20 years. Squadron commander when I joined was an unrated O-6 with a masters in engineering and years of experience developing missiles and satellites in systems command. About two years in, they replaced him with an ex-F-51 pilot with a degree in Animal Husbandry. We had one pilot (a senior captain) in our engineering group. Alcoholic, they'd dried him out (temporarily, as it turned out) and sent him to work with us.

And they were wondering why we engineers were leaving when our four years were done. Just no future in it.

Ironically, one of my fellow engineers had an Air Medal. He wasn't rated.

Ron Wanttaja
 
The year after I was transferred PCS from Vandenberg to Hill AFB in Ogden Utah, Col. Gail "Hal" Halvorsen, the Berlin Airlift "Candybomber" became C.O. of the 6596th Instrumentation Squadron, Vandenberg Tracking Station. I missed serving under him by a few months, but by all accounts he is a prince of a man. Born on October 10, 1920, he's pushing 100 and living in Spanish Fork, UT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Halvorsen

He then was given the command of the 6596th Instrumentation Squadron of the AF Systems Command Satellite Control Facility, Vandenberg AFB, California, which was involved in both satellite launch and orbit operations.
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wanttaja said:
Current Space Command web page shows General James Dickinson as commander, and Brigadier General Brook Leonard as the Chief of Staff.

https://www.spacecom.mil/About/Leadership/

General Dickinson is indeed a four-star, but he's an ARMY four-star. I assumed the COS would be the next highest-ranking officer in Space Command.
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After the establishment of the U.S. Space Force (separate branch), the old Air Force Space Command is now a joint services command and renamed United States Space Command, hence the Army commander, Marine Corps senior enlisted leader, and Air Force chief of staff.
 
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The Space Force just deployed to planet Qatar.
 
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