US Travel Assoc: TSA has succeeded in stopping travel

mikea

mikea

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The need for reform was made especially clear by recent research revealing that travelers are avoiding two to three trips per year due to unnecessary hassles associated with the security screening process. These avoided trips come at a cost of $85 billion and 900,000 jobs to the American economy.

http://www.ustravel.org/news/press-...tem-unveiled-travel-industry-security-experts
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Back to my theory that we'll need compensating laws making it mandatory to buy airline tickets. Otherwise, people will be bypassing the airport security procedures by not going to the airports.
 
Hey, I did my part by bringing two colleagues with me to New Orleans on their first GA flight. They will get to contrast it with the airlines, since they are leaving earlier than I am, and thus are going on the steel tubes heading back.
 
I am telling you, the airlines have it wrong. Fees for CARRYON. Carryon, people! I'll happily pay 25 bucks to carryon every time - knowing that many schlubs will check their free bag.
 
Although it is an interesting theory: that part of our job losses are due to the increased security. Make a new job bill...
 
I have no doubt at all that people choose forms of transportation other than airlines in part because of the TSA. But a lot of airlines do a pretty good job of losing customers, too.
 
Poppycock. The loss of jobs and traveling is due more from the economy than the security. Security sucks, and is a hassle, no argument, but the vast majority of sheeple don't give a rat's behind. They believe it is necessary for our "safety." They aren't traveling as much because they either don't have the excess money, or they are unsure of their money status and don't want to risk using something they need. People simply do not have extra anymore. Our 135 operation is very slow the last two years, and people do not have to deal with onerous security there.
 
For me, TSA and airline BS have effectively extended the length of trip I am willing to take by any other means. It is basically airline only if no other viable alternative.
 
The report has some interesting data on domestic passenger counts versus TSA expenditures. There clearly has been a drop in passengers, and I think that's largely economy-related.

But the increase in TSA expenditures is dramatic. For instance, in FY 2004 there were 618,000,000 passengers, and TSA spent $4.5 billion. FY 2010 it's 623,000,000 passengers and $7.6 billion. A 69% increase in cost!

From the report:
The American people might be surprised to learn that in some years, the budget of TSA was greater than that of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which investigates cases of terrorism and handles the entire federal law enforcement agenda.

http://www.ustravel.org/sites/default/files/page/2011/03/A_Better_Way_032011.pdf

I'm not saying I agree with everything in the report. I don't travel all that much, and when it's work related, you do what you gotta do. Personal travel, I avoid airlines when possible. But it's not just because of TSA, it's the total experience - TSA, surly airline employees, crappy airline schedule performance, cramped airliners, crappy baggage handling, crappy car rental companies, etc.
 
Aztec Driver said:
Poppycock. The loss of jobs and traveling is due more from the economy than the security. Security sucks, and is a hassle, no argument, but the vast majority of sheeple don't give a rat's behind. They believe it is necessary for our "safety." They aren't traveling as much because they either don't have the excess money, or they are unsure of their money status and don't want to risk using something they need. People simply do not have extra anymore. Our 135 operation is very slow the last two years, and people do not have to deal with onerous security there.
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The problem isn't the sheeple. It's the 20% of passengers that make 80% of the trips. And among THAT population, the TSA is seen as onerous and it makes folks not want to travel.
 
The new America. Soon all forms of travel will be hindered by government security forces. France will want it's statue back. The word "Freedom" will be banned from all schools and textbooks as a threat to Homeland Security, by causing discontent among students.

All will be required to hail our glorious Patriot Act to prove they love our Homeland, or face the consequences.

We are slowly trading our freedoms for temporary security.

John
 
Whether it's the TSA or the airlines, or both, I don't know. However, almost everyone I know has reduced personal travel because of the experience (myself included). Load factors are way up, quantity of flights are down so any change is a problem, luggage is a pain, food is crap, etc. Why do I want to spend the better part of two days of a vacation dealing with that? Pre-911 I loved to jump on a plane and go somewhere even for a weekend.

The TSA budget uplift is unbelievable; but what politician wants to come out and say we shouldn't spend whatever they ask for to fight terrorism and keep the people safe?
 
Lets put it this way: Now that I can fly out of Winston-Salem, I will not be flying commercially for any of my business trips coming up in the next 2 years except the really long ones to Santa Fe. Both Savannah and Louisville used to be airline flights for me.

Not anymore.
 
In my case, the economy hasn't affected my using the airlines, but the entire airline experience has. TSA was just icing on the cake.
My Dad was a WWII vet (has since passed) had several ailments and couldn't stand long but was too proud to use a wheel chair. As long as he could lean on something and didn't stand too long, he could persevere. Took him on a flight and he was doing fine leaning against me until we got to TSA. They insisted he go through security alone and began dinking with him. I told the agent what his conditions was and she curtly said he needed to either be in a wheel chair or walk through by himself. Took away the dignity of a very proud, generally self sufficient person. He never flew again.
I've had them do enough to me as far as going through private things in public and seizing half empty toothpaste and shaving cream containers to just avoid them at substantially higher personal cost.

I've posted a few incidents on here in the past. Fought for the freedoms we have in this country and don't believe in being treated like a potential terrorist every time I walk into a commercial airport.

Best,

Dave
 
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As a retailer, I do know this, people are not after miles on their charge cards like they once were. A few years ago I heard it mentioned almost daily as they whipped out their plastic, now probably less than once a month.

This could just be that most have switched over to debit cards, I don't know. My terminal does not tell me what type of card it is. I do know the enthusiasm for travel has diminished greatly in the last few years judging from what people are bringing in for framing. Most vacations usually had some sort of memento to be framed, not so much anymore.

The airline industry is not the only industry our security paranoia is affecting.

Like the war on drugs, the war on terror is an industry that employs many, many, thousands of people, therefore, it can never be won. The economic impact would be too great. For the rest of our existence as a nation, we are now dependent on drugs and terror for our financial well being.

It's simple, who employs the most people, the airlines or Homeland Security? Which one provides the best paying jobs?

It's the new America.

John
 
wsuffa said:
The problem isn't the sheeple. It's the 20% of passengers that make 80% of the trips. And among THAT population, the TSA is seen as onerous and it makes folks not want to travel.
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I might be one of the 20%, but it's the whole airline experience that's gone bad.
  • TSA and their goons
  • Airlines charging for baggage. The company will reimburse me, but those that aren't reimbursed will take large carry-on bags and fill the bins.
  • They charge you for a bag but the bag doesn't go with you to the destination
  • When the your flight is late for the connection, they claim they have you rebooked but really don't. The counter person doesn't seem really interested in helping you get to your destination
  • I plan on airlines cancelling flights and allow an extra day to get to my destination. All too often I needed the extra time.
An exception seems to be Southwest. I haven't flown them often but they do try to work woth you.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I might be one of the 20%, but it's the whole airline experience that's gone bad.
  • TSA and their goons
  • Airlines charging for baggage. The company will reimburse me, but those that aren't reimbursed will take large carry-on bags and fill the bins.
  • They charge you for a bag but the bag doesn't go with you to the destination
  • When the your flight is late for the connection, they claim they have you rebooked but really don't. The counter person doesn't seem really interested in helping you get to your destination
  • I plan on airlines cancelling flights and allow an extra day to get to my destination. All too often I needed the extra time.
An exception seems to be Southwest. I haven't flown them often but they do try to work woth you.
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I am among the 20%. And I agree with you. I've often said that you need to have high level status in a frequent flyer program to be treated as every passenger should be treated.

And the TSA is just disgusting and humiliating. Or as one screener put it: "We have the power, and you WILL respect our authoritah"
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I might be one of the 20%, but it's the whole airline experience that's gone bad.
  • TSA and their goons
  • Airlines charging for baggage. The company will reimburse me, but those that aren't reimbursed will take large carry-on bags and fill the bins.
  • They charge you for a bag but the bag doesn't go with you to the destination
  • When the your flight is late for the connection, they claim they have you rebooked but really don't. The counter person doesn't seem really interested in helping you get to your destination
  • I plan on airlines cancelling flights and allow an extra day to get to my destination. All too often I needed the extra time.
An exception seems to be Southwest. I haven't flown them often but they do try to work woth you.
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But given that prices are very low now compared to 30 years ago, I can't blame the airlines.

If you're willing to go FC or if you have status with them (ie you have spent money with them), all those issues go away. There's no charges for bags, you get rebooked on the next available flight automatically, you almost always fly first class, there are no security lines, etc etc etc. It's a completely different travel experience. My flight from Hawaii back to SF was having mechanical problems earlier this year and was on a 30 minute decision to cancel time. Everybody was going crazy. I just called, and within 5 minutes, I had a seat on the next flight also just in case this one was actually cancelled.

Maybe that's how it should be for everyone, but people want the low fares. I like the airline experience, _except_ for the TSA. I won't fly bc of it anymore.
 
sba55 said:
But given that prices are very low now compared to 30 years ago, I can't blame the airlines.

If you're willing to go FC or if you have status with them (ie you have spent money with them), all those issues go away. There's no charges for bags, you get rebooked on the next available flight automatically, you almost always fly first class, there are no security lines, etc etc etc. It's a completely different travel experience. My flight from Hawaii back to SF was having mechanical problems earlier this year and was on a 30 minute decision to cancel time. Everybody was going crazy. I just called, and within 5 minutes, I had a seat on the next flight also just in case this one was actually cancelled.
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The problems are my company won't pay me to go First Class and I don't fly enough for status. I only do about 4 to 8 trips a year.
not as much flying as some business travelers but likely more than most people.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
The problems are my company won't pay me to go First Class and I don't fly enough for status. I only do about 4 to 8 trips a year.
not as much flying as some business travelers but likely more than most people.
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Mine only pays for coach. Fortunately enough of my trips are trans Pacific or trans Atlantic, so exceeding 50,000 miles each year is easy and I maintain good status on United. That gets me legroom that should be standard for everyone and about 50% success on upgrades on domestic flights. And I can check 3 bags without charge. GA is not an option due to company travel policy. Fortunately we run our own shuttle service in the west and it can be quite convenient (and doesn't know what TSA is. Well, they do, but so far haven't had to deal with them).
 
I have status on United and the procedures don't really bother me that much, I just make allowances for time. I also fly Air France but not enough to have status just yet - they aren't all that problematic either.
 
SkyHog said:
Lets put it this way: Now that I can fly out of Winston-Salem, I will not be flying commercially for any of my business trips coming up in the next 2 years except the really long ones to Santa Fe. Both Savannah and Louisville used to be airline flights for me.

Not anymore.
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Does your company's travel policy allow that? Sadly I have seen policies that state clearly that travel by private aircraft for company business is not allowed. the company I used to work for had a policy at one time that stated it was non-reimbursable but they updated it to prohibit it.
 
Nick is probably close enough to drive if he had to. I think Charlotte/Savannah is about 5 hours give or take. Not sure about Wilmington.
 
ScottM said:
Does your company's travel policy allow that? Sadly I have seen policies that state clearly that travel by private aircraft for company business is not allowed. the company I used to work for had a policy at one time that stated it was non-reimbursable but they updated it to prohibit it.
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Mine does. Very explicit policy that allows personal travel viar private aircraft, and spells out the reimbursement procedures. Someone's six sigma project, no doubt.
 
wsuffa said:
Mine does. Very explicit policy that allows personal travel viar private aircraft, and spells out the reimbursement procedures. Someone's six sigma project, no doubt.
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Mine's at the other end. Explicitly prohibits it. Even without reimbursement, thou shalt not!
 
ScottM said:
Does your company's travel policy allow that? Sadly I have seen policies that state clearly that travel by private aircraft for company business is not allowed. the company I used to work for had a policy at one time that stated it was non-reimbursable but they updated it to prohibit it.
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We have no policy regarding travel via GA, and I plan to keep it that way. I'll submit for reimbursement as if I'd driven, and that's all.

Costs me more, but hell, I'd have spent it anyway flying around doing nothing.
 
woodstock said:
Nick is probably close enough to drive if he had to. I think Charlotte/Savannah is about 5 hours give or take. Not sure about Wilmington.
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Savannah: 6 hour drive, 5 hour airline flight, 2 hours GA
Louisville: 8ish hour drive, 6 hour airline flight, ~3 hours GA

No brainer. Even less of a brainer if you include security times.
 
How can a flight to SAV from NC be 5 hours? It's barely over an hour from DC. Do you have to connect? Horrors!
 
I can beat the airlines door to door anywhere east of the Mississippi except MCO when you figure in connections.

Figure in security and I can probably beat the airlines anywhere from Denver to Bangor.
 
woodstock said:
How can a flight to SAV from NC be 5 hours? It's barely over an hour from DC. Do you have to connect? Horrors!
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GSO-ATL: 1:30.
2ish hour layover.
ATL-SAV: 1:00

Total time: 4:30. Then add the raping and sexual assault, and I think you're closer to 6 hours.
 
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woodstock said:
Good God. I wouldn't fly either.
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Door to door times (on the conservative side, times likely much worse):

Airlines:
My house to GSO: 30 minutes
Sexual Assualt: 45 minutes
Waiting for plane to board: 15 minutes
GSO-ATL: 1 hour 30 minutes
Layover: 2 hours
ATL-SAV: 1 hour
Drive to hotel: 1 hour

Total Time: 7 hours

GA Time:
My house to KINT: 15 minutes
Preflight airplane: 10 minutes
KINT-KHXD: 2 hours
Cab to Hotel: 10 minutes

Total Time: 2:35

Drive:
My house to Hotel: 5 hours, 38 minutes

Clear winner, GA and less sexual assault.
 
SkyHog said:
Door to door times (on the conservative side, times likely much worse):

Airlines:
My house to GSO: 30 minutes
Sexual Assualt: 45 minutes
Waiting for plane to board: 15 minutes
GSO-ATL: 1 hour 30 minutes
Layover: 2 hours
ATL-SAV: 1 hour
Drive to hotel: 1 hour

Total Time: 7 hours

GA Time:
My house to KINT: 15 minutes
Preflight airplane: 10 minutes
KINT-KHXD: 2 hours
Cab to Hotel: 10 minutes

Total Time: 2:35

Drive:
My house to Hotel: 5 hours, 38 minutes

Clear winner, GA and less sexual assault.
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It's always entertaining to read these comparisons and the bias built into them.
 
Trapper John said:
It's always entertaining to read these comparisons and the bias built into them.
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Other than the 10 minutes being a bit short (I usually factor in 30 minutes from arriving at the airport till wheels up) for pre-flight, what is incorrect about it?

We've been told around here to allow 1-2 hours to get through security.

Looking at departing for from Grand Rapids to Philly for Wings FlyBQ I have this:

Part 121:
Leave house..............8:00am
Arrive at GRR............8:20am
Wait in security.........9:50am
Flight Departs..........10:10am
Connect in DTW
Arrive in Philadelphia...2:18pm
(Numbers pulled from Expedia)
Cab or car to Wings......3:00pm


727DS
Leave house..............8:00am
Arrive 9D9...............8:20am
Preflight Finished.......8:50am
Take-off.................8:55am
Land at Wings...........11:40am

So how are the airlines better?
 
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EdFred said:
Other than the 10 minutes being a bit short (I usually factor in 30 minutes from arriving at the airport till wheels up) for pre-flight, what is incorrect about it?

We've been told around here to allow 1-2 hours to get through security.
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These comparisons invariably are based on 2 or more airline legs with a significant layover in between.

The preflight number here is awfully short, if you count flight planning, buying fuel, taxi/runup and so on.

And the auto travel time in this example works out to about 58 mph. A little low for a trip entirely on the Interstate, no?
 
Interesting point. One certainly has to factor in things like pre-flight planning, fueling and preparing the aircraft, shut down, maintenance, recurrent training, etc. but it's not as much fun <g>

Best,

Dave
 
Trapper John said:
These comparisons invariably are based on 2 or more airline legs with a significant layover in between.

The preflight number here is awfully short, if you count flight planning, buying fuel, taxi/runup and so on.

And the auto travel time in this example works out to about 58 mph. A little low for a trip entirely on the Interstate, no?
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I don't live in a hub city, neither does Nick We are ALWAYS looking at 2 legs or more. I have to connect to go anywhere except MKE, DTW, CLE, MSP, CVG, ATL, PIT, ORD.

I've timed it. I am consistently 30 minutes to load, preflight, park my car in my hangar. It doesn't take me 3 hours to flight plan. More like 3 minutes. 9D9 --> TOL --> KLOM. No ice, no TSRA, lets go.
 
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EdFred said:
I don't live in a hub city, neither does Nick We are ALWAYS looking at 2 legs or more. I have to connect to go anywhere except MKE, DTW, CLE, MSP, CVG, ATL, PIT, ORD.
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But we never seem to use direct flights in these comparisons, either. And the weather is always good enough, the plane never strands us with a mechanical problem, etc.
 
Trapper John said:
But we never seem to use direct flights in these comparisons, either. And the weather is always good enough, the plane never strands us with a mechanical problem, etc.
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The last time I raced commercial air on a nonstop flight was KORD to Kansas City, MO.

My colleague took American Airlines and I took my plane, door to door I beat them by two hours. Their 1:45 scheduled flight took them a lot longer because they were at KORD 2 hours prior to departure, were delayed departing because of heavy O'Hare traffic, landed far away from where they needed to be downtown and the StupidShuttle dropped them off last.

I on the other hand left the house after 15 minutes of checking the WX and a 30 minute drive to the airport. Took off, grabbed my clearance from Rockford thus avoiding the Chicago-Dep nonesense, flew direct and landed at the Kansas City Downtown airport. The FBO tied down my plane called me a cab and 10 minutes later I was checked in.

Going home was equally frustrating for them. Because of low vis in the Kansas area arrivals were backed up and their flight was delayed by 45 minutes. I took off got direct, got into VMC just past the Mississippi river, canceled IFR and landed about 20 minutes ahead of them. They then waited for luggage, got to the parking lot to get cars, pay and make the hour plus commute to their homes.

GA...WINNING! :D
 
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