US Travel Assoc: TSA has succeeded in stopping travel

[SkyHog]

Interesting point. One certainly has to factor in things like pre-flight planning, fueling and preparing the aircraft, shut down, maintenance, recurrent training, etc. but it's not as much fun <g>

Best,

Dave

Meh.

Look at weather online: 5 minutes
Call for weather brief, kind of listen to the mumbo jumbo since I already know my go/no go, but want a record of calling, and I want to obtain TFRs: 5-10 minutes

Hardly a big difference.

 

[Trapper John]

GA...WINNING!

I would renew my AOPA membership for life if they hired Charlie Sheen as their pitchman!

 

[SkyHog]

These comparisons invariably are based on 2 or more airline legs with a significant layover in between.

The preflight number here is awfully short, if you count flight planning, buying fuel, taxi/runup and so on.

And the auto travel time in this example works out to about 58 mph. A little low for a trip entirely on the Interstate, no?

Ok. Lets do GSO-ATL (a direct flight, mind you, and one that I'll probably never do). My only direct options are GSO-ATL or GSO-DFW, and I'll admit GSO-DFW is probably a win for the airline, which is why I won't consider my trips to Santa Fe via GA yet.

Airline
Leave House: 0430
Get to GSO: 0500
Get fondled: 0545
Flight departs: 0610
Flight Arrives: 0738
Taxi to hotel: 0800

Total Time: 3:30

GA
Leave House: 0430 (never gonna happen, I get to set my own schedule...)
Get to KINT: 0445
Preflight Airplane and depart: 0500
Flight arrives (KLZU): 0715
Taxi to hotel: 0730

Total time: 3:00

Why shorter taxi times and driving times? Because I can pick an airport closer to my hotel, and I can leave from an airport that is closer to me. EdFred's right, though, I will NEVER go to Atlanta, so this isn't a valid comparison. Every trip I need to take is a two legger at least. But even in this case, I saved 30 minutes.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

These comparisons invariably are based on 2 or more airline legs with a significant layover in between.

The preflight number here is awfully short, if you count flight planning, buying fuel, taxi/runup and so on.

And the auto travel time in this example works out to about 58 mph. A little low for a trip entirely on the Interstate, no?

Out of Lincoln, NE the only direct flights are to KORD, KDEN, and KMSP. Everything else connects to those. You do need to arrive at the airport 1 hour in advance of your flight. 58 MPH- I found that typical in NJ/NY/CT/PA/DE/MD. He might even be pushing it a bit fast. I typically found ~50 MPH on many trips. Here in NE- good question as I don't do many trips like that.

OTOH, the few trips I felt were GA appropriate- Lincoln to Coralville, IA or Ames, the weather was awful one or both ways.

 

[Everskyward]

I want to see someone put together a good GA vs. airlines comparison DEN to SFO which is my usual trip.

 

[SkyHog]

I want to see someone put together a good GA vs. airlines comparison DEN to SFO which is my usual trip.

Closest I've come is this:

Actually, I can't find the thread where I posted exactly what the cost/time was to fly GA to Vegas and then looked up the exact same direct flight from ABQ to LAS.

It was essentially "Same/Same, minus 30 mins going GA." Price was similar.

 

[EdFred]

But we never seem to use direct flights in these comparisons, either. And the weather is always good enough, the plane never strands us with a mechanical problem, etc.

I can beat the airlines direct to CLE, ORD, MKE, DTW, CVG as well.

 

[Everskyward]

Closest I've come is this:

Actually, I can't find the thread where I posted exactly what the cost/time was to fly GA to Vegas and then looked up the exact same direct flight from ABQ to LAS.

It was essentially "Same/Same, minus 30 mins going GA." Price was similar.

ABQ-LAS is shorter and doesn't have nearly the terrain problem and the weather issues associated with it for small airplanes. Besides, as I recall, you factored your then GF now wife into the price. I would probably not have the occasion to bring someone else along. I've worked it out before and nothing will touch the price or even many times the price. A RT ticket is anywhere from about $200-$500 depending on how far in advance you buy.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I did one several years ago Dallas Addison to San Diego Gillespie and it wasn't too bad. In this case, the satellite airports were much more convenient than the commercial terminals.
Addison is six miles from my home; D/FW is 30 to 40 minute drive. The drive to Addison is pretty painless; not so going to D/FW especially during congested periods.

Parking is free at my hanger and at D/FW it was about $12 per day if you parked remotely. At my hanger, I pulled my car up and put my baggage in the plane. At D/FW, I had to carry my luggage or drive up, check at the curb, then go back and remote park. At Addison, I could board my plane without removing my shoes, belt, taking my lap top out of it's bag, putting my change and wallet somewhere while I was holding out my ID card and boarding pass while doing pirouettes in my tutu.

The commercial flight was faster in the air, but at Addison, I didn't have the arrive an hour-and-a-half or more early, TSA check and the wait for baggage after landing, and more than once, it didn't come when I flew commercial. To be fair, it was delivered a day late once and I had to drive 40 minutes back to the airport and 40 minutes back home once to get it.

Once I arrived at KSEE, my Dad would pick me up and he lived about seven minutes away. Put the bags in the car, checked in with the FBO and left. The door-to-door time wasn't much different, but the convenience was much better. OTOH, it was much more expensive to fly my plane and when I got to KSEE I was worn out. Still, I very much enjoyed it.

If winds were strong when headed west, it could make a huge difference if it caused a fuel stop. In that case, more than an hour difference and a bit more of a hassle to descend, get fuel, climb and get the new clearance and weather.

It would have made a much bigger difference if I needed to make a connection on the airline.

Guess it's all a matter of how one looks at things. I think the airlines have lost some folks like me that could afford a much better than coach seat, but just didn't like the cattle car/potential terrorist treatment received at commercial terminals. I also can carry stuff and not have someone seize it because I might light my toothpaste tube or some such stuff. But, I've never been a big crowd person. Some of it is definitely me.

The experience of flying one's self is completely different than being a number in the back of an aluminum tube. While I can't lie back, read and get the wonderful cabin service one might enjoy on an airline, I can enjoy the freedom of controlling my own magic carpet that goes where I point it.

Best,

Dave

 

[Aztec Driver]

But we never seem to use direct flights in these comparisons, either. And the weather is always good enough, the plane never strands us with a mechanical problem, etc.

Why don't people factor in the extra time that they plan on when using the airlines? There are always possibilities in the airlines, too. Mechanical delays, weather, personnel, long security lines...

I do several flights a year direct that I can compare.

BWI-BNA

Airline:
1:30 minute drive to BWI.
I plan to arrive at the parking garage 1:30 before the flight to accomodate high traffic volumes, accidents on the beltway, delays in security, etc...
The airline flight is an easy 2 hour flight.
Deplaning and getting a rental car eats up another 30-45 minutes.
45 minute drive to destination.

Total time: 6-6.5 hours.

GA:
There is no accounting for weather and notams, because they are checked the night before, and a few minutes just before flight and easily equal the amount of time wasted getting ready for the airline flight.
45 minute drive to airport.
15 minute preflight.
~3.5-4.5 hours flight.
15 minute deplane and get rental car that is more often than not waiting on the tarmac for me.
20 minute drive to destination.

6 hours 5 minutes at the highest (strong headwind.)

Timewise it is a wash or slightly better. Hassle-wise, it beats the airlines hands down. Price-wise, the airlines have me beat unless I fill the airplane with passengers.

I end up splitting the trips between airline and Twinkie. Any further than that, and Twinkie starts to lose all battles.

Now the Aerostar is a whole 'nuther ballgame....

 

[Everskyward]

I did one several years ago Dallas Addison to San Diego Gillespie and it wasn't too bad.

But look at what you were flying.

I think some people (not talking about you) don't factor in the cost of acquisition either. "I only spent X amount on fuel..."

I've flown myself and others GA from DEN-SFO numerous times in various business jets and yes, it's convenient, it's as fast as an airliner in the air and much quicker on the ground, but it costs an incredible amount of money that I'm happy someone is willing to spend.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Yea, it's much more expensive. Of course, I was a military pilot and had some great initial training. Hard for me to just sit in back, but I'm not a full time pilot like you. Still, 98% of the flights aren't much of a challenge in a well maintained plane.

I think if you're comparing the same flight to time in a 172 or something, that would be completely different. I have a mini airliner and it's great for longer trips. Not an airliner, but high on the GA food chain <g>

Best,

Dave

 

[murphey]

I priced out FTG-ABQ (or AEG) for a wedding last fall.

SW or Frontier, about $175 one way.
Time from house to park to TSA to door of 737 or 320 2:00 to 2:30
Flight 1:20
Baggage & car 0:30 to 1:00
total 4 to 5 hours

Home to hangar to preflight to being in the air 1:00
Pedalling the cherokee as fast as I can 3:00
Baggage & car how fast can I sign the contract?
total a bit over 4 hours

So it's a wash. Plus, I know exactly where my luggage is, can carry a weapon and a chocolate shake, don't have to pay for parking at the airport, I'm on my schedule if I want to stay over or leave early, etc.

 

[murphey]

I want to see someone put together a good GA vs. airlines comparison DEN to SFO which is my usual trip.

I have, my cousin lives in Emeryville, so I did a plan FTG-CCR going north (SLC). In the 180, 9+ hours not counting 3 fuel stops. That's about $400 one way for me. Southwest, fully refundable, a bit over $300 and not quite 3 hours in the air.

Clark & the Frankenkota could do it in about 7 and a fuel stop. But Clark & 'kota got faster.

 

[Everskyward]

I have, my cousin lives in Emeryville, so I did a plan FTG-CCR going north (SLC). In the 180, 9+ hours not counting 3 fuel stops. That's about $400 one way for me. Southwest, fully refundable, a bit over $300 and not quite 3 hours in the air.

Clark & the Frankenkota could do it in about 7 and a fuel stop. But Clark & 'kota got faster.

In thinking about it the airline takes me about 7 hours but that's door to door. DIA is about an hour drive. If you include parking and taking the shuttle I usually leave my house about 3 hours prior to departure. When I get to SFO I take the AirTrain to the car rental center but it's only about a 30 minute drive to my destination. There's no more convenient GA airport closer to the city than SFO and I would not pay the fees there if I was in my own small airplane so I would be going elsewhere.

But the main drawback that I can see is the weather. You can fly here in 9 hours but how many days per month can you do that? The same goes for the Frankenkota. I've been out here about once per month in the past year and a half and once every few months before that. The longest delay I've had is about 4 hours. Usually it goes pretty smoothly (knock on wood). The time before this one we had delay for deice in DEN but small airplanes would have been grounded.

I know someone who tried to commute to SoCal in his Comanche from Denver and is seems like he was always canceling trips or getting stranded. I think it became a running joke. Oh, you're still here... praying to the weather gods was not effective?

I know that there are many intangibles that tip the scales toward GA but I haven't been able to justify it for myself yet. I'm much more likely to approach small airplanes just as fun. That's why if I bought anything it would be a Super D.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

There are a lot of folks that just can't or won't ride on a small plane. My Sister-in-law just gets airsick. She's tried everything for it and now just won't fly. My nieces, who have flown with me for years, are both expecting and had to meet me on our last trip to NY because they couldn't ride more than about two hours without a potty. Small planes are just going to bounce around a bit more when it's turbulent.

I have the luxury of not having to be at a set place at a set time. I can move things around if weather is an issue. Last month, there was a huge system coming into White Plains from the West (HPN), I left a day early so I could climb up and get on top of it to get home. Had I waited another day, I would have had to climb up through moderate icing conditions; something I just don't do unless there's a very clear window.

So, GA just has to be more flexible. Although I'm a former military pilot and take recurrent training each year, I'm not flying for a living: just not as proficient as someone that is. So, I have to make adjustments. The commercial folks fly in conditions that I wouldn't take on; they have better equipment and are more proficient.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ghery]

OK, here's a comparison of GA vs. a direct flight. I'm making the trip today (writing as I sit at the gate at SEA) on Horizon because, although I'm paying for the ticket, it technically is company travel as I'm not taking the day off for vacation. Going over to WSU to teach a seminar, come home tonight.

GA

20 minutes to the airport from home
20 minutes to preflight, pull the plane out of the hangar, fire up and call the tower
10 minutes to taxi to the runway and runup
2 hours OLM to PUW (if I can get over the Cascades)
10 minutes to the meeting venue

Total - 3 hours

Airline

1:10 minutes drive to Masterpark
15 minutes shuttle to terminal
2 hours for security, etc (doesn't take that long, but they recommend...)
1 hour for the flight
10 minutes to the meeting venue

Total - 4 hours, 35 minutes.

Heck, I can drive it in 5 hours 30 minutes if the pass is in good shape. And I darned near did that, but the air fare was so low that it was almost cheaper to ride Horizon. GA is the most expensive, but fastest.

 

[steingar]

This is all a bit academic, as there is plenty of wx that will stop a light aircraft, but not a jet. If you absolutely have to be there on time, GA sux unless you have enough equipment to qualify as a mini airliner.

 

[EdFred]

Instrument rating reduces the amount of no-go calls. I've had more trips delayed/cancelled because of the airlines than I have GA. I wouldn't trust the airlines to get me there on time either.

 

[Ghery]

OK, here's a comparison of GA vs. a direct flight. I'm making the trip today (writing as I sit at the gate at SEA) on Horizon because, although I'm paying for the ticket, it technically is company travel as I'm not taking the day off for vacation. Going over to WSU to teach a seminar, come home tonight.

GA

20 minutes to the airport from home
20 minutes to preflight, pull the plane out of the hangar, fire up and call the tower
10 minutes to taxi to the runway and runup
2 hours OLM to PUW (if I can get over the Cascades)
10 minutes to the meeting venue

Total - 3 hours

Airline

1:10 minutes drive to Masterpark
15 minutes shuttle to terminal
2 hours for security, etc (doesn't take that long, but they recommend...)
1 hour for the flight
10 minutes to the meeting venue

Total - 4 hours, 35 minutes.

Heck, I can drive it in 5 hours 30 minutes if the pass is in good shape. And I darned near did that, but the air fare was so low that it was almost cheaper to ride Horizon. GA is the most expensive, but fastest.

OK, driving would have been faster today. Flight to PUW is running at least an hour late due to an unspecified reason for the plane being delayed getting to SEA from PDX.

This is all a bit academic, as there is plenty of wx that will stop a light aircraft, but not a jet. If you absolutely have to be there on time, GA sux unless you have enough equipment to qualify as a mini airliner.

Absolutely. Which why I always have a backup plan, which usually involves driving.

Instrument rating reduces the amount of no-go calls. I've had more trips delayed/cancelled because of the airlines than I have GA. I wouldn't trust the airlines to get me there on time either.

True, but many of my trips are such that GA wouldn't be an option. Even if my employer would allow it. But I'm looking forward to my IR (when I finally get it) reducing the number of GA trips that are canceled due to some light IMC along the route.

 

[EdFred]

True, but many of my trips are such that GA wouldn't be an option. Even if my employer would allow it. But I'm looking forward to my IR (when I finally get it) reducing the number of GA trips that are canceled due to some light IMC along the route.

All of my trips are pretty much recreational, or just business related enough that I write off the trip. Never a pressing need, and never an overseas. Although, I might head to the South Pacific this summer and subject myself to the fondling and groping.