jbDC9
Pre-takeoff checklist
Okay dude, whatever. But, I think I'll skip remedial training on that; after 31+ years and 24000 hrs flying, I'm actually pretty good at pattern entries without cutting people off. Thanks for the advice though!
Upwind Pattern Entry
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Okay dude, whatever. But, I think I'll skip remedial training on that; after 31+ years and 24000 hrs flying, I'm actually pretty good at pattern entries without cutting people off. Thanks for the advice though!
Auburn2002
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Well that's his point. Suggesting doing a straight-in does not imply he's pointing his nose to the numbers and now has the right of way come hell or high water. It simply implies that instead of tucking in between, say, a plane on crosswind and one on base to joint the pattern on downwind, he might tuck in between a plane on climbout and one on downwind to join straight-in. If he can do that without cutting people off, where is the rude/selfish behavior? If he does cut people off then yes, he's a dick. But I don't think that's what he's suggesting.
My suggestions: if coming from the south and I just really don't want to talk to ATC, straight-in or upwind entry if I have to land 36. If coming from the north or especially northwest, I'd be calling Whiting's tower to see about transitioning their class C to join on the downwind leg at 2R4.
I land at my private strip and I still fly a pattern. Doing an upwind (which I do just off to the right of the runway centerline) lets me check the sock and make sure my neighbors aren't out there mowing the runway.
One thing you do NOT want to do and while I'm not sure that the person who appears to suggest it meant it is DO NOT DESCEND INTO THE PATTERN. This is very dangerous. The closest time I got to colliding with someone was a clown who nearly descended on me in downwind. He's a low wing, I'm flying a skyhawk. Got a good view of his oil leak.
One thing you do NOT want to do and while I'm not sure that the person who appears to suggest it meant it is DO NOT DESCEND INTO THE PATTERN. This is very dangerous. The closest time I got to colliding with someone was a clown who nearly descended on me in downwind. He's a low wing, I'm flying a skyhawk. Got a good view of his oil leak.
tecprotb
Pre-takeoff checklist
Do you realize you are flying into some of the most difficult airspace in the US? what direction are you coming in from, Elgin is not far to the east of your destination. You will have to be under ATC control and you will need to take the online FAA safety course for Destin/Elgin AFB FL Part 93 Operations Details, See FAASAFETY.GOV for the knowledge test. You can find the link on the sectional.
Cooter
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In a tight pattern, the interval needs to be set on upwind. Once the crosswind turn is made, the spacing is pretty much set. If a full pattern is being flown correctly, there won't be room for a straight in between aircraft. The way you make room, is to extend upwind and set your interval on the downwind traffic.
As to your question, the answer is yes. If you had experience in formation flying, it would make more sense to you.
The trouble with that is that when you're on the upwind, you can't see the plane that has the right-of-way, which is the one on final. It seems to me that it would be more practical to make room by extending the downwind, because at that location you can see if turning base will create a conflict with the traffic on final.
Cooter
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But in that case others are changing their pattern for you. What do you mean that the plane on final has right of way? To land yes, but not for the whole pattern.
You simply use the time approaching the runway to locate the traffic and offset slightly to the non-pattern side to keep the runway visible. If there is someone on final you should pass them prior to the crosswind turn, and in that case he follows you. If he has lifted and is still in front of you when he starts his crosswind turn, you take spacing off of him
arnoha
Cleared for Takeoff
So, bypassing the rest of the cluster...
I can't speak to the airport the OP is referencing, but I have done upwind entries where it makes sense. Offset away from the pattern, at pattern height. In a low-wing, I might fly a slip to see the runway better, especially if it's right pattern. (Bonus: the slip makes you more visible, too!) Sometimes, it's recommended, too. CA51 (private strip at the Sea Ranch) recommends that as the only entry from the south. It's actually a fairly challenging visual, with a right pattern that turns directly towards a hill and a descent that follows the tree tops.
I can't speak to the airport the OP is referencing, but I have done upwind entries where it makes sense. Offset away from the pattern, at pattern height. In a low-wing, I might fly a slip to see the runway better, especially if it's right pattern. (Bonus: the slip makes you more visible, too!) Sometimes, it's recommended, too. CA51 (private strip at the Sea Ranch) recommends that as the only entry from the south. It's actually a fairly challenging visual, with a right pattern that turns directly towards a hill and a descent that follows the tree tops.
Cooter
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I have no idea. Divine intervention?
I mean this:
"Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft." -14 CFR 91.113(g)
If you're about to turn base, and you see that doing so would require a plane on final to alter their flight path, then it's your responsibility to avoid the conflict. The easiest way would be to extend your downwind far enough so that you can turn final a safe distance behind the plane that is already on final.
If you're about to turn base, and you see that doing so would require a plane on final to alter their flight path, then it's your responsibility to avoid the conflict. The easiest way would be to extend your downwind far enough so that you can turn final a safe distance behind the plane that is already on final.
Cooter
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That's after the fact, and not what I'm speaking to. I addressed it already by saying others would have to adjust their pattern to fit you. If the plane on final was already in the pattern, then the aircraft on base shouldn't be that close. That's what I meant by setting the interval. Interval is already set, and if done properly won't allow for a straight in.
What you quoted above doesn't apply to your previous point unless the guy on upwind dive bombs down to glidepath and cuts out the aircraft on final. It's really pretty simple, extend upwind requires no changes to your approach to land. Extending downwind does. And, it's easier to set interval going in opposite directions than it is going in the same direction.
If the pattern is active, new additions to the pattern should work themselves in, instead of forcing their way in. That's all I'm saying.
MAKG1
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You know as well as the rest of us that an instrument approach in VMC, whether at a towered or nontowered airport, does not often follow the track to minimums. While under Approach control, you will be given deviation instructions. While on advisory, you may be cleared for a visual, or not. Either way, YOU must do what is necessary to avoid collision, even if that includes deviating from the track in VMC.
Circling minimums do not prohibit an upwind pattern entry unless there is a note prohibiting circling on the appropriate side of the field. In fact, this may be your best strategy for the case of a nonprecision approach with a high, close-in MAP.
It's not a good idea to practice an instrument approach into a busy airport in VMC. If you must do so, safety often demands terminating the approach at pattern altitude even if the minimums are much lower.
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What about a plane on final that was not already in the pattern?
You must allow for a straight-in. 91.113(g) does not give you any choice in the matter.
I'm not saying that the reg I quoted applies to a guy on upwind. I'm saying that it applies to a guy on base, or about to turn base.
"Should" is all well and good, but the fact is that straight-ins are not prohibited by FAA regulations, so pilots should be willing and able to accommodate them, in the interests of both safety and legality.
Cooter
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If you were talking about the guy on base, you shouldn't have said "when you're on upwind". I don't see the guy on base mentioned.
I'm not sure why you're getting contentious. I am simply trying to explain the easiest way to integrate into a busy pattern in the circumstance brought up by the OP. Flying upwind and working into the pattern is the most efficient and safest way to do it in my experience. I have clearly addressed the questions you raised because I thought you were genuinely interested. If you want to make it an argument then I'll start putting the questions back to you and see how well you can work out flying a straight in into a busy pattern described above without disrupting someone else's approach. However you choose to answer, I think it will prove to be either more disruptive to others or less safe. I am not saying it is not doable or no legal, so you're wasting you time quoting CFR and making my point something it is not.
Since you seem to be taking this personally, why don't you point out how what I've described is wrong or won't work?
cgrab
Pattern Altitude
I did an upwind entry to Dewitt Spain in Memphis when the controller switched me to VFR about two miles due east of the airport. I saw one guy turning downwind and instead of flying all the way past and coming back on the 45 I made it clear to the other pilot my intentions and turned to fly just to the east of the airport. I made my turns, joined the pattern and landed without incident. The other pilot continued his touch-and-go's. I think if there were lots of traffic I may have gone out and back but saw no reason that day.
My point was that when you're on the upwind, it's not possible to predict whether a conflict will develop by the time you turn base. It's necessary to wait and see what the situation looks like when you're ready to turn base. Sorry if I wasn't being clear.
We have a difference of opinion. It happens.
I think the method you're describing is a good approach as long as you recognize that you may have to extend your downwind if someone shows up doing a straight-in.
I'm not posting on this subject to be argumentative. I'm posting on this because I think it's important. I seldom do straight-ins, but I think it's important, for safety reasons as well as legality, to recognize that being in the pattern does not give us right-of-way over straight-in traffic.
Cooter
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I don't have time to go looking, but doesn't it say somewhere that straight-ins should be made in a way as not to disrupt pattern traffic? Maybe not, but I thought I'd seen that somewhere.
The point I've made is about efficiency, safety, and courtesy. With all other things being equal, we should try to maximize those. I haven't advocated cutting anybody out or early turning to squeeze out straight-in traffic, or screwing-straight in traffic so that they learn their lesson. There is no doubt in my mind though, that straight-in traffic to a busy non-controlled pattern sets up a more dangerous situation than an overhead or upwind entry. I don't care to list out the reasons why, but I can if you wish. Also, establishing landing interval while 2-3 miles out on a straight-in is very difficult to do safely, whereas setting it on upwind is extremely easy.
The point I've made is about efficiency, safety, and courtesy. With all other things being equal, we should try to maximize those. I haven't advocated cutting anybody out or early turning to squeeze out straight-in traffic, or screwing-straight in traffic so that they learn their lesson. There is no doubt in my mind though, that straight-in traffic to a busy non-controlled pattern sets up a more dangerous situation than an overhead or upwind entry. I don't care to list out the reasons why, but I can if you wish. Also, establishing landing interval while 2-3 miles out on a straight-in is very difficult to do safely, whereas setting it on upwind is extremely easy.
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It's in AC 90-66A. It would be good advice even if it weren't published. It's important to remember that it's a recommendation, while 91.113(g) is a regulation, so a plane on base still has to yield the right-of-way to a straight-in if it's close enough for a conflict to exist.
I usually don't make straight-ins to non-towered fields, and never when the pattern is busy. I like the upwind entry when I'm in position for it.
Eh? He won't have the right of way unless he is on final approach TO LAND which will not be where my upwind leg will be. If he decides not to land, he has less right of way if he intends to overtake me.
Fearless Tower
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Sometimes someone has to go around or circle for spacing. It happens.
I just watched a King Air this morning do a 360 for spacing trying to fit in to the pattern at PVG.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wait a minute.....you mean we shouldn't all be listening to the guy who lost his medical and hasn't flown in a few years???
Yes, I was talking about traffic on final approach TO LAND. He said "The way you make room, is to extend upwind and set your interval on the downwind traffic." How do you know whether there is a need to make room before you're in a position to see the traffic on final?
My last flight was three days ago.
Fearless Tower
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I wasn't referring to you...
Well THAT'S a relief!
Cooter
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Pattern traffic doesn't set interval on aircraft that are not in the pattern. If someone calls straight in from 3 miles out or so, you can extend or turn to be inside him, but at that point you don't know . Hence, all my previous posts about straight in traffic forcing others to adjust their pattern.
BTW, I'm basically describing a military pattern. It's basic stuff for anyone who's flown it. It works well, and if understood would help out with some of the VFR pattern confusion.
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Cooter
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That's a neat pattern over the river at Dewitt Spain, I haven't been there in a long time.
One of the problems in civilian flying is that there doesn't seem to be any consensus on how the pattern should be entered. In various threads, I've seen people advocate the 45, the straight-in, the upwind, the ampersand, the crosswind, the mid-field crossing at pattern altitude, and the overhead break. Have I missed any?
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If you want to get used to a lot planes in the pattern, go to Osh. They land 3 on the runway a the same time (red green and blue dot). You dont talk on the radio (no time), you just listen.
Or Santa Monica when its busy. Class D airport and you dont reply when given take off clearance. Just go.
The easiest way I know to enter a busy pattern is to come in close BEHIND someone (no one will be there), then slow down or go up and down or extend to get the spacing you need.
If pilots are announcing and they are close to you but you dont know where, ask them if they see you. If they don't climb or descend so you arent at the same altitude they are.
Or Santa Monica when its busy. Class D airport and you dont reply when given take off clearance. Just go.
The easiest way I know to enter a busy pattern is to come in close BEHIND someone (no one will be there), then slow down or go up and down or extend to get the spacing you need.
If pilots are announcing and they are close to you but you dont know where, ask them if they see you. If they don't climb or descend so you arent at the same altitude they are.
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fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
All this arguing over nothing, and every time I've been in and around a busy pattern, the pilots work it out without a fight breaking out on the ground afterwards.
I do a 45 entry 90% of the time, crosswind entry 5% and straight-in 5%. I've also extended my downwind to accommodate a straight-in, several times actually, and never once became a crybaby over having to do it. It's another couple of minutes of flying.. the horror!
I do a 45 entry 90% of the time, crosswind entry 5% and straight-in 5%. I've also extended my downwind to accommodate a straight-in, several times actually, and never once became a crybaby over having to do it. It's another couple of minutes of flying.. the horror!
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I go to OSH 2 days before the official start and spend the first 3 days drinking beer and watching arrivals.
It gets very hairy at times and also entertaining. Two I can remember from last year was an Archer bouncing it about 5 times(didn't prop strike it or break the nosewheel miraculously), and a 172 nearly ran right up the azz-end of another 172 on the same runway.
Seanaldinho
Pattern Altitude
Ive been to 2R4 a couple times, not a particularly busy airport. Talk to Pensacola approach, they are very good and are very used to VFR traffic. If 36 is in use they shouldn't have a problem with you maneuvering to a downwind entry.
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
He's referring to me, and it's both a low blow and not apropos since I still have a valid pilot cert a day and am legal to fly where 3rd class medical is not needed.Well THAT'S a relief!
And there is also nothing that says I haven't flown more recently. Nothing that says I have either...
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Fearless Tower
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It was a low blow, but I think you were coming across like a jackass. Talking down to actual professional pilots like you were some kind of expert badass.
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
It's pretty simple - if you can't fit into even a busy pattern doing a straight in, you need remedial training. It's not rude, or inconsiderate to do a straight in, provided you do it without impacting those in the pattern.
I don't (and have never) cared if someone was a professional pilot or a student pilot. If Ron Levy himself came in here and said something like "I can't do basic maneuvers," I'd call him on it.
You can't stop pilots from circling so they aren't on final if you come straight in. You never know what they will do. Some pilots hear "straight in" and they leave the pattern.
3 mile final. Pilot is midfield downwind. Does he have time to land before you get there?
Thats the problem. They circle to stay out of your way and they don't have to.
Yes it can be done. Practicing and ILS is a straight in, and you pretty much have to do that if you want to stay current.
3 mile final. Pilot is midfield downwind. Does he have time to land before you get there?
Thats the problem. They circle to stay out of your way and they don't have to.
Yes it can be done. Practicing and ILS is a straight in, and you pretty much have to do that if you want to stay current.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wow! All the advice one would ever want, or not. Here's your real answer ^^^. Call them, they might even have a 'right traffic' pattern established there.
edit: looked at Airnav.com and it is right traffic for 18, left for 36. This time of the year the winds probably favor runway 18 90% of the time.
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