Unmanned commercial airliners

Would you fly on a commercial airliner with no human pilot helping the "drone

  • Yes.

    Votes: 11 14.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 67 85.9%

  • Total voters
    78

saracelica

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
1,817
Display Name

Display name:
saracelica
Was having a conversation with another pilot. They said they would be hesitant to ever fly on a plane that was only controlled by computers. (No human "monitoring" inside the aircraft). So the question to you other pilots. If you were to board "American Airlines/Southwest/Other" to go across the country would you mind if there was no human helping the computer do it's thing. My theory is that computer does alot as it is. If it does go "bezerk" I wouldn't be able to over power it. One time I had to land in order to pull the circuit breaker. Thoughts?
 
I wouldn't feel very comfortable without a human pilot at least watching the plane do its thing.
 
OTOH, the Air France Airbus that went down in the Atlantic was evidently not being flown by pilots so it seems the day has already arrived.:hairraise:

Seriously though, that is horrible example of what can happen.
 
Eliminating human pilots is equivalent to saying that pilots are fallible, but computer programmers are infallible.
 
Was having a conversation with another pilot. They said they would be hesitant to ever fly on a plane that was only controlled by computers. (No human "monitoring" inside the aircraft). So the question to you other pilots. If you were to board "American Airlines/Southwest/Other" to go across the country would you mind if there was no human helping the computer do it's thing. My theory is that computer does alot as it is. If it does go "bezerk" I wouldn't be able to over power it. One time I had to land in order to pull the circuit breaker. Thoughts?

No human pilot inside the aircraft does not mean the aircraft is only controlled by computers. The "drones" you hear about in the news are generally not controlled by computers, they are remotely piloted by genuine human beings. There's considerable advantage in that; the aircraft can be designed without regard to human physiology, no life support system, no ejection seats, flight endurance is not limited by human endurance, etc. None of those apply to aircraft intended for moving people.
 
And one other important thing.......
That human pilot in a shack somewhere "flying" the thing has (literally) no skin in the game when the fit hits the shan.
 
No human pilot inside the aircraft does not mean the aircraft is only controlled by computers. The "drones" you hear about in the news are generally not controlled by computers, they are remotely piloted by genuine human beings. There's considerable advantage in that; the aircraft can be designed without regard to human physiology, no life support system, no ejection seats, flight endurance is not limited by human endurance, etc. None of those apply to aircraft intended for moving people.
I understand that, but it's nice to know someone else is going to take the hit if something happens.

It's like at work you don't NEED your manager at work every moment but it sure is nice when they're in the office to ask instead of having to IM them. (oh shoot this should go in the Rants thread)
 
I suspect while they might change the "aircraft commander" requirements, you won't ever see a passenger carrying aircraft without someone "in command" on board. Might be little more than the chief purser (flight attendant) but someone has to be in charge in case of emergencies and it won't be someone on the ground.
 
And one other important thing.......
That human pilot in a shack somewhere "flying" the thing has (literally) no skin in the game when the fit hits the shan.

Bingo. I want someone flying the thing that has a vested interest in landing it safely. The best way to ensure that is for them to be aboard.
 
No human pilot inside the aircraft does not mean the aircraft is only controlled by computers. The "drones" you hear about in the news are generally not controlled by computers, they are remotely piloted by genuine human beings. T.

That depends on the drone. some of these "pilots" are merely system operators that send commands via a keyboard. There more actual flying of some video games than with some of these drones.
 
Was having a conversation with another pilot. They said they would be hesitant to ever fly on a plane that was only controlled by computers. (No human "monitoring" inside the aircraft). So the question to you other pilots. If you were to board "American Airlines/Southwest/Other" to go across the country would you mind if there was no human helping the computer do it's thing. My theory is that computer does alot as it is. If it does go "bezerk" I wouldn't be able to over power it. One time I had to land in order to pull the circuit breaker. Thoughts?

State-of-the-art today is not sufficient to economically support the necessary level of safety.
 
Considering the quality of pilots these days vs the quality of automation, I hate to say it but autonomy is my choice.
 
"I'm sorry, Dave, but I can't do that."

:no:

It would be interesting to know how many engineers would get on an airliner with no onboard pilot vs. the general population. My guess would be that engineers would be able to think of more potential failure modes of the technology, and would thus be more wary.
 
It would be interesting to know how many engineers would get on an airliner with no onboard pilot vs. the general population. My guess would be that engineers would be able to think of more potential failure modes of the technology, and would thus be more wary.

I can think of 50 times as many failure points of humans than automation, in the past decade they have ranged from suicidal to stupid to incompetent. Triple redundant technology is far more secure than two humans.
 
No human pilot inside the aircraft does not mean the aircraft is only controlled by computers. The "drones" you hear about in the news are generally not controlled by computers, they are remotely piloted by genuine human beings. There's considerable advantage in that; the aircraft can be designed without regard to human physiology, no life support system, no ejection seats, flight endurance is not limited by human endurance, etc. None of those apply to aircraft intended for moving people.

Might want to review that. Particularly the interface difference between Global Hawk and Predator.

If the user clicks a spot on the screen and the aircraft figures out how to get there and then executes it, that's a lot more than remote control.

As someone who systems-engineers control systems, a man-rated pilotless aircraft is a long way off, and probably won't even be considered in the foreseeable future.
 
I can think of 50 times as many failure points of humans than automation, in the past decade they have ranged from suicidal to stupid to incompetent. Triple redundant technology is far more secure than two humans.

Just because you can't think of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

For a system to handle an arbitrary situation, the engineers must have thought about it beforehand. If it's not engineered, solutions do not magically appear out of thin air.

So, you get an off nominal indication. A human can think. A computer can't. Do you think an automated system could have landed an Airbus in the Hudson after an "impossible" double engine failure?

There are a number of human factors and interface issues (and AF447 appears to be showcasing some really nasty ones). These get worse with automation, not better.
 
Just because you can't think of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

For a system to handle an arbitrary situation, the engineers must have thought about it beforehand. If it's not engineered, solutions do not magically appear out of thin air.

So, you get an off nominal indication. A human can think. A computer can't. Do you think an automated system could have landed an Airbus in the Hudson after an "impossible" double engine failure?

There are a number of human factors and interface issues (and AF447 appears to be showcasing some really nasty ones). These get worse with automation, not better.

Just because a human can think does not mean a human does think. There was no piece of automation or interface issue on AF 447 that pulled the throttles to flight idle and left them there, and that was triple redundant humans, no one even hit the TOGA button which likely would have saved them.
 
A long time until there is no pilot onboard but the 2d pilot will likely be gone
 
I can think of 50 times as many failure points of humans than automation, in the past decade they have ranged from suicidal to stupid to incompetent. Triple redundant technology is far more secure than two humans.

Triple redundant technology can be far more reliable. Triple redundant is neither neccesary nor sufficient for safety.

Too err is human, to really screw things up requires a computer.
 
With no human pilots on board, at the controls? Not just no, but hell no.
 
Dammit some STEM dork is going to punch me right in the ego.
 
Triple redundant technology can be far more reliable. Triple redundant is neither neccesary nor sufficient for safety.

Too err is human, to really screw things up requires a computer.

The day a computer decides to commit suicide and take a couple hundred people out in a plane crash, I'll agree. Thing is, with autonomy, 9/11 wouldn't have happened either. The reality is that the technology is now more reliable than human physiology. Even computer errors are typically just a multiplication of the error a human told it to commit.
 
The day a computer decides to commit suicide and take a couple hundred people out in a plane crash, I'll agree. Thing is, with autonomy, 9/11 wouldn't have happened either. The reality is that the technology is now more reliable than human physiology. Even computer errors are typically just a multiplication of the error a human told it to commit.

You've worked on a lot of safety analyses, have you?
 
Part of the problem is that if you're talking about no human pilot either on the ground or in the plane, we don't have measured fatality rate data for such a system in airline service, so there's no objective way to determine how it would compare with human pilots. Considering the exemplary record of airline safety compared to other forms of transportation, it would take a heck of a leap of faith to replace the current system with one for which we don't have that data.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, but I prefer Sully up front when the plane runs through a flock of geese.

I doubt any remotely piloted (or a completely automated pilot) could have pulled off that spectacular outcome.

-Skip
 
Part of the problem is that if you're talking about no human pilot either on the ground or in the plane, we don't have measured fatality rate data for such a system in airline service, so there's no objective way to determine how it will compare with human pilots. Considering the exemplary record of airline safety compared to other forms of transportation, it would take a heck of a leap of faith to replace the current system with one for which we don't have that data.

How many CAT III approaches have turned into flaming wrecks? They have been bringing planes from altitude to landing autonomously at SFO with a quick uplink of data from ATC for over a year now safely while flying profiles that save thousands of dollars in fuel.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, but I prefer Sully up front when the plane runs through a flock of geese.

I doubt any remotely piloted (or a completely automated pilot) could have pulled off that spectacular outcome.

-Skip

Simple as can be, onboard radar finds the smoothest available surface and sets up a glide holding it to that surface. It can even distinguish what type of surface and I bet it would not have forgotten to hit the ditch switch.
 
No way. Software quality and testability would have to increase by 1000%.

You should see the software induced chaos on brand new 777s. They took the first steps toward toward Integrated Modular Avionics, with the Honeywell AIMs cabinet. After decades, there is never a fault free release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_modular_avionics

http://www.honeywell.com/sites/aero...B22_H8426DF45-840B-4A22-F210-960B234C9195.htm

Management of software overall, and discovery of flaws is a huge daily preoccupation for avionics engineers and technicians. It's to the point there are now whole chapters in the parts catalogs for software management.

You'd have to be a moron to fly on a software based airplane with millions and millions of lines of code and firmware designed by hundreds of companies some that never talk to each other, without a pilot on board.
 
After four decades in the Military airplane design, development and test business, I am not getting in any totally automated vehicles of any kind the leave the face of the earth or exceeds 10 MPH on the face of the earth that does not have a human being that can control it at will. Well maybe if it had an ejection seat. :rolleyes:

The likelyhood of an idiot behind the stick coupled with a complex digital system failing is small enough I accept the risks with today's technology. It happens like Air France, Chinese High Speed Trains and even the DC Metro but I'm ok with that level of risk.

Besides the technical difficulty, the potential liability would likely cause such astronomically high insurance rates it would not be financially feasible even if it was technically feasible much less considering the Marketing challenge.

Maybe being trapped in the initial sky train at DFW has warped my mind. :rofl:

Cheers
 
The "drones" you hear about in the news are generally not controlled by computers, they are remotely piloted by genuine human beings.

Not so.
 
Simple as can be, onboard radar finds the smoothest available surface and sets up a glide holding it to that surface. It can even distinguish what type of surface and I bet it would not have forgotten to hit the ditch switch.

Sully's accomplishment was not the stick and rudder skills needed to set the A-320 in the river. And, as you point out, he/they forgot the ditch switch. Landing/ditching is no more than setting the plane down at the right speed, in the right configuration, and the right place. Any - no, every ATP ought to be able to do that.

Sully's accomplishment was to know what to do, and to not be seduced by ATC's offers of other runways which were unobtainable. I do not believe the software in the black boxes needed for remote or fully auto piloted airplanes has this capability yet. As many scenarios are programmed in, there remains the famous Captain Murphy to come up with an unanticipated set of conditions that the black box will not know. It takes a human to select the best available option and fly the plane until the last piece stops moving*. And, in Sully's case, walk the aisles to ensure everyone is out.

-Skip

*Apologies to Chuck Yeager
 
Just because a human can think does not mean a human does think. There was no piece of automation or interface issue on AF 447 that pulled the throttles to flight idle and left them there, and that was triple redundant humans, no one even hit the TOGA button which likely would have saved them.

Whereas quad-redundant humans, and one in particular, saved many lives aboard UA 232.

And smarter human software coders could have saved AF 447, long before the event happened.

(Nothing that flight encountered was so out of the ordinary it hadn't been seen before, including pilots who hold completely impossible to survive stick positions/flight control inputs. And certainly stalls aren't anything new. Should the coders have overridden the control inputs and saved the day?)

What's your point? Sometimes humans get it right, sometimes they get it incredibly wrong. No difference in ultimate outcome if the problem is in software coded 10 years earlier, or in the cockpit right now. People die when we screw up in aviation.
 
Sully's accomplishment was to know what to do, and to not be seduced by ATC's offers of other runways which were unobtainable.

Actually they've proven he could have made it back.

Sully's accomplishment was not accepting the unknown for the dangerous but maybe survivable known.

The automation in the aircraft could have easily told him if the offered runways were reachable and even recommended it, if there was a dual-engine-out power and range mode programmed into it, with the push of a button.

A glide-distance/range ring is child's play in modern software. Mixing that with "Nearest To" tech would have put USAir down on a runway that day.

It wasn't there out of a perceived lack of need and raw optimism. It's not like dual-engine-outs on twins haven't happened regularly throughout aviation history.

Humans, especially humans designing things in groups, believe their own hype.

"This thing will never have a dual engine-out."

"This thing will never have a triple-hydraulic failure."

"This thing will never have a pilot sit at the controls and continue to pull into a deep stall and hold it while the two other guys wonder what's going on."

"This thing will never be flown in a low-flyby at high Alpha with the Chief Test Pilot at the controls who will not press the TOGA button in time to go-around."

"This thing will never be flown in freezing weather below the rated ops specs for the O-rings even after a meeting called specifically to say it shouldn't is completely corrupted by outside schedule pressures."

The automators/coders didn't code the eventuality because they truly believe these things won't happen.

The managers don't hire skeptics because they're annoying. They aren't "team" players. They slow progress.

Most design groups will have reams of paper and calculations and matrices showing they didn't code something because it was mathematically proven unlikely. And all of that risk analysis will have basically eaten up the time and resources that could have added the feature, ten times over. But the reports make people happier than the person who says "stop, we need to fix this now."

These things that have happened, will again.

NTSB recommended the manufacturers add automatic engine-out routing to runways in the avionics in the final report on the Hudson ditching, if I recall, so no pilot would ever have to guess again.

We'll see if anyone believes them that it's worth adding. The expensive risk analysis reports in both time and money, say no. Once a stack of risk analysis reports that say there's little risk is built to hide behind like a kiddie fort, it's hard to knock it down and re-focus on true risk elimination.
 
I am a huge proponent of redundancy, including the use of completely different technologies.

I highly doubt that we will ever get to the point in my lifetime where a passenger airline is flown without a pilot in the aircraft on the flight deck. I know I will never fly as a passenger on one. MAYBE the black box will be flying the aircraft, but there will be a human within arms reach of the controls.

I seem to recall that there are some aircraft right now that have systems that will take off and land at the push of a button. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, but that's the story I heard. And I'm stickin' to it. :)
 
Back
Top