Unmanned commercial airliners

Would you fly on a commercial airliner with no human pilot helping the "drone

  • Yes.

    Votes: 11 14.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 67 85.9%

  • Total voters
    78
here's a thought for everyone.
remember that UAV that Iran supposedly hijacked and put on the ground in their country using computers?

whats to stop terrorists, or anyone else for that matter, from doing the same with a fully loaded airliner? far easier than trying to sneak aboard with weapons to hijack right?

Not really considering every time a test is held they manage to walk through with all sorts of weapons including hand guns. Heck, there's even a couple of 'non test' situations where the people walked through after forgetting they were carrying.:dunno: The technology to subvert a flight through the use of computers and remote coms is much more difficult seems to me.
 
Which is allowed to make the lowest vis landing, the computer or the pilot?

Let's see if you can correctly answer this:

True or false: All failure modes/conditions are handled by the Cat IIIc landing system automation exclusively without any human intervention or monitoring.
 
Let's see if you can correctly answer this:

True or false: All failure modes/conditions are handled by the Cat IIIc landing system automation exclusively without any human intervention or monitoring.

False, they have not yet been designed to. That is not difficult to remedy though. Technology advances, humanity does not. You can fix a program, you can't fix stupid.
 
False, they have not yet been designed to. That is not difficult to remedy though. Technology advances, humanity does not. You can fix a program, you can't fix stupid.

See the comments about the bottom rung engineer still being called an engineer, though. Stupid will be programmed right in. Awesome. ;)
 
Thing is, you can test a program and fix it, the human not.

You're falling into the well-disproven fallacy that code gets better with each iteration.

The industry estimates a bug per every ten lines of code.

All we do is swap one bug for another until the re-write resets the game and that's buggy too.

The only model that ever produced infallible code was the Space Shuttle's methodology. Five computers, programmed by five isolated teams, to a very well defined specification. The computer with an answer to any given problem that didn't match the others was voted out in a matrix that could handle multiple machine failures.

Expensive. Worked flawlessly. Code still failed at times but it was voted off the island, Survivor style.
 
I seem to recall that there are some aircraft right now that have systems that will take off and land at the push of a button. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, but that's the story I heard. And I'm stickin' to it. :)

This comment made me think of this old cartoon. Apologies for the orientation.
 

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I bet good software will always be a "team player" too. People that refuse to take the flight for X, Y, Z reason are such a nuisance.
 
4b94241c-376e-ff66.jpg
 
This thread gives the phrase "blue screen of death" extra poignancy!
 
You're falling into the well-disproven fallacy that code gets better with each iteration.

The industry estimates a bug per every ten lines of code.

All we do is swap one bug for another until the re-write resets the game and that's buggy too.

The only model that ever produced infallible code was the Space Shuttle's methodology. Five computers, programmed by five isolated teams, to a very well defined specification. The computer with an answer to any given problem that didn't match the others was voted out in a matrix that could handle multiple machine failures.

Expensive. Worked flawlessly. Code still failed at times but it was voted off the island, Survivor style.

:yeahthat:
 
You're falling into the well-disproven fallacy that code gets better with each iteration.

The industry estimates a bug per every ten lines of code.

All we do is swap one bug for another until the re-write resets the game and that's buggy too.

The only model that ever produced infallible code was the Space Shuttle's methodology. Five computers, programmed by five isolated teams, to a very well defined specification. The computer with an answer to any given problem that didn't match the others was voted out in a matrix that could handle multiple machine failures.

Expensive. Worked flawlessly. Code still failed at times but it was voted off the island, Survivor style.

Damned 1980s technology. No wonder the shuttles are museum pieces. :mad2:

Good thing the B-52 didn't suffer the same fate.
 
Thing is, you can test a program and fix it, the human not.

DenverPilot addressed the second point. I'll address the first.

Only the very simplest bits of software code can be tested exhaustively.

Every "branch" (i.e., decision) in the code doubles the number of test cases. Now, with a million lines of code (say, FMS -- what you're proposing would be substantially larger), you might expect a few hundred decisions. Quick, what's 2**100? At a rate of one test per nanosecond (ridiculously fast....), how long would it take to test this code? How does this compare to the age of the universe (13.7 billion years -- about 5x10**17 sec)?

You can "white box" test to reduce this, but then it's no longer exhaustive testing, as design assumptions must be reused to make the tests.

And testing is very, very expensive, so anyone trying to make a profit will attempt to minimize them.

It gets worse with event driven code, which almost all control systems have a flavor of. That's because you get to consider time ordering. For two events, they can occur in two orders, or simultaneously. Leaving simultaneity out means you program in an uncontrolled failure if it ever happens (and it's much more likely than you might think, as all computer systems discretize time).
 
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False, they have not yet been designed to. That is not difficult to remedy though. Technology advances, humanity does not. You can fix a program, you can't fix stupid.



I'll go back to one of my previous statements. The state-of-the-art does not support unmmaned airliners.

I never said the technology couldn't be developed, but right now it's not there yet.

but with respect to your claim that this "is not difficult to remedy", well, I must conclude that you don't have any actual experience developing safety-critical systems.
 
These last few comments about software design and test, which I agree with, remind me of life back in the day when the Program Manager would say "It's only Software, fix it." I and the designers would then run screaming for the bar. :wink2:

I am sure the Knight Brokerage Firm ran all the proper tests before they put their trading program on line and headed toward bankruptcy.

Cheers
 
These last few comments about software design and test, which I agree with, remind me of life back in the day when the Program Manager would say "It's only Software, fix it." I and the designers would then run screaming for the bar. :wink2:

I am sure the Knight Brokerage Firm ran all the proper tests before they put their trading program on line and headed toward bankruptcy.

Cheers

Actually evidence suggests it was the test harness that sunk Knight.

http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/3525.html
 
> Overall a complete failure of a FBW system seems unlikely

Depends upon how you define "complete failure."

Plenty of examples of The Law of Unintended Consequences (for software) resulting
in serious trouble(s). Examples: USS Yorktown, F-20, F-22 ... ad. naseum.
 
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