Unleaded 100 octane AvGas update

docmirror said:
^^^ Read this again Jay, then read it once more. Then contact an aero or mech engineer to assist. Add to this, flying in TX puts you in the greatest risk category for trouble. Now, I know you don't care about safety, but we kind of like to keep you around.
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Many of us come here to learn, but for whatever reason you (and several other regular posters) just can't bring yourself to share your vast knowledge without resorting to this sort of condescending hyperbole.

I can't tell you how many pilots I meet at the hotel who are lurkers here, rather than active posters, because of the way you guys respond to simple questions. Lose the "you're an idiot for not knowing that" attitude, and we would see vastly more pilot participation in POA.

But to your point, obviously further research is needed before I can start running mogas in the -8.
 
JOhnH said:
But isn't CO2 one of the leading culprits in Global Warming? Why are we purposely making more of it?
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Because between Carbon Monoxide, a deadly poison, and Carbon Dioxide, a greenhouse gas, the CO2 is the lesser of the evils. The real question is why the hell are we still using fossil fuels at all? The answer is because we worship money.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Quite frankly, this is not my problem. Those who can't use unleaded mogas should be the ones getting screwed by this situation, not ALL of us.
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That simply is not an viable option. We will have either avgas for all, nor no avgas at all. The amount of 91-93 octane unleaded avgas or substitute mogas that would be pumped would not be enough for FBO's to economically pump it. The existing 100 octane engines would disappear, and all the FBO's would pump would be jet fuel.

Personally, I will use unleaded car gas if it comes to losing 100LL, so long as I can obtain it, or I will change all the seals in the engine to handle the ridiculous ethanol-polluted car gas.
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If you limit your flying to airports where unleaded mogas is available, that may work for you. But the number of places you could fly would be very, very limited.

Then, when it's time to change the engine, I will go diesel.
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Clearly you have not examined the cost of replacing a gasoline aircraft engine with a diesel aircraft engine or you would not make that statement. Firewall forward conversion cost for production aircraft is on the order of $80K.
 
Henning said:
Peterson offered me use of his fuel heating rig if I ever wanted to do an STC run.
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Peterson offered to do the STC for the Tiger if we got 500 people to commit to buy the STC upon completion (at a cost of about $200 each, IIRC). Didn't even come close to enough takers. But that still doesn't change the economic fact that without the 100 octane engine market, there isn't enough demand in the USA for avgas of lower octane rating to have it produced, distributed, and pumped -- it would be jet fuel or nothing at most airports.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Our -8 has almost exactly the same fuel system as the Cherokee, right down to the electric fuel pump, so I don't anticipate any trouble -- but you can bet I will be talking with lots of fellow RV-8 owners before I attempt it.
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RVs have been known to exhibit vapor lock issues on hot summer days with pure mogas even when adhering to Van's recommended stock fuel system plumbing built according to the plans.

However, there are plenty of RV owners/builders who have figured out how to mitigate the vapor lock problems with improved fuel line routing/insulating/cooling/etc, boost pump placement and operations, and are successfully running on pure mogas... so it certainly can be done, although I'd study the fuel system carefully on an individual RV to be sure there aren't any places that look like they'd be predisposed to fostering a vapor lock situation before flying it on mogas on a hot day... especially anywhere the exhaust pipes are near fuel system components. In cool weather, likely no problems at all. There's probably a ton of good experience on the VAF forums about mogas and vapor-lock mitigation.

As for myself, I stick to 100LL in my RV-6 although the previous owner/builder did run unleaded premium in it once or twice just to see how it ran. I wish that 93/94UL avgas (base 100LL avgas but with zero lead in it) would be made available... that's all we'd sell at our local airport if we could get it. 99% of the planes based here, and 99% of the avgas sold here at my airport need no lead, nor do they really need that much octane number. We have only one plane, a big Piper Navajo, based here that really "needs" 100LL and it flies about twice a year, and he could easily fuel it at the "big airport" across town.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Peterson offered to do the STC for the Tiger if we got 500 people to commit to buy the STC upon completion (at a cost of about $200 each, IIRC). Didn't even come close to enough takers. But that still doesn't change the economic fact that without the 100 octane engine market, there isn't enough demand in the USA for avgas of lower octane rating to have it produced, distributed, and pumped -- it would be jet fuel or nothing at most airports.
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How many tigers are actively flying? 500 is likely a rather large percentage to try and get in on a single purchase.
 
Ron Levy said:
Peterson offered to do the STC for the Tiger if we got 500 people to commit to buy the STC upon completion (at a cost of about $200 each, IIRC). Didn't even come close to enough takers. But that still doesn't change the economic fact that without the 100 octane engine market, there isn't enough demand in the USA for avgas of lower octane rating to have it produced, distributed, and pumped -- it would be jet fuel or nothing at most airports.
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That means he tried one and he knows it will require a DER and boost pumps.
 
BTW, Sunoco makes an unleaded fuel right now that can replace 100LL in high performance supercharged engines, they just want nothing to do with the aviation market because it's populated with whiny ******* and lawyers.
 
JOhnH said:
But isn't CO2 one of the leading culprits in Global Warming? Why are we purposely making more of it?
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Virtually all of the CO (carbon monoxide) released into the atmosphere will turn into CO2 in a matter of months via naturally occurring reactions. The problem is that if these reactions occur near the ground, they tend to produce smog, which kills people or makes their lives miserable. You can convert the CO to CO2 in the catalytic converter, or you can wait for the atmosphere to do it. Either way, you are stuck with the CO2 in the atmosphere for a century or more. But, if you do the conversion in the catalytic converter, at least you avoid the step where it produces smog--which is the main purpose of the catalytic converter.
 
Neil Rubin said:
Virtually all of the CO (carbon monoxide) released into the atmosphere will turn into CO2 in a matter of months via naturally occurring reactions. The problem is that if these reactions occur near the ground, they tend to produce smog, which kills people or makes their lives miserable. You can convert the CO to CO2 in the catalytic converter, or you can wait for the atmosphere to do it. Either way, you are stuck with the CO2 in the atmosphere for a century or more. But, if you do the conversion in the catalytic converter, at least you avoid the step where it produces smog--which is the main purpose of the catalytic converter.
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First post................ Welcome to POA...:cheers:



Now politely remind people that trees and all growing things NEED CO2 for growth.... Carbon Dioxide is not the killer some alarmist make it out to be..:no::nonod:
 
N801BH said:
First post................ Welcome to POA...:cheers:



Now politely remind people that trees and all growing things NEED CO2 for growth.... Carbon Dioxide is not the killer some alarmist make it out to be..:no::nonod:
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It's a balance of things, currently we are far out of balance by releasing the CO2 the plants consumed millions of years ago that has been stored underground back into our atmosphere while at the same time depleting the surface of growing things while populating it with even more living things that produce fresh CO2 from the carbon the growing things create and combining it with the Oxygen they put out. The earth is made to operate in a balance, however we are throwing the balance off kilter by introducing ancient carbon to the equation.
 
Henning said:
It's a balance of things, currently we are far out of balance by releasing the CO2 the plants consumed millions of years ago that has been stored underground back into our atmosphere while at the same time depleting the surface of growing things while populating it with even more living things that produce fresh CO2 from the carbon the growing things create and combining it with the Oxygen they put out. The earth is made to operate in a balance, however we are throwing the balance off kilter by introducing ancient carbon to the equation.
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Whether one believes in Global Warming or not, this is true.
Now, if only I could find unpolluted mogas for my STC'd airplane...
 
My 172 seems to burn slightly less mogas than 100ll. Dunno if that is across the board, but something to think about.
 
I see ERAU had to jump on the bandwagon today in the Press. AvWeb report on them testing G100LL in one Skyhawk.

The eerie part to me was the quote, "Our students are green-aware... [thus ERAU has to participate in this stuff]."

Sounds like a description of an indoctrination camp somewhere prior to ERAU that did its job?

It's just the wording that's weird. They could have said ERAU wants to participate, or is doing it because they are a "leader in aviation technology" or whatever other BS that usually PR folk say, but instead made it sound like the green hoardes of students forced them into it?

LOL! Maybe they did? Green zombies with $100K of student loan debt? Heh. They'll eat your braaaaaaaains! ;) ;) ;)
 
denverpilot said:
The eerie part to me was the quote, "Our students are green-aware... [thus ERAU has to participate in this stuff]."

Sounds like a description of an indoctrination camp somewhere prior to ERAU that did its job?
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It's marketing talk, nothing more. Even if the students ARE interesting in helping the environment... what about that implies indoctrination?
 
denverpilot said:
......
LOL! Maybe they did? Green zombies with $100K of student loan debt? Heh. They'll eat your braaaaaaaains! ;) ;) ;)
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Nate is right on with his oversight on this...:yes:..


Young greenies voted in this administration and are blind to the fact of how phony the whole agenda is......

As for the 100 grand student loan debt....... mark my words, In the next election cycle there will be talk of forgiving that debt just to buy votes... Also keep in mind..... outstanding student loan debt is over 1 TRILLION dollars.... :hairraise:


Goodbye America... it was a great country at one time...:sad::sad:
 
N801BH said:
In the next election cycle there will be talk of forgiving that debt just to buy votes... Also keep in mind..... outstanding student loan debt is over 1 TRILLION dollars.
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Total US Government debt is $16 trillion. Include state and local debt, and it's $19 trillion.
Unfunded liabilities of the Federal government are $125 trillion.

So, wiping student loan debt clean would cost 0.69% of the total debt and unfunded liabilities of the government.
Run that card up some more. What could possibly go wrong?
 
The reason ERAU is interested is not only marketing, but they have been looking for ways to reduce their fuel costs for a long time. I'm sure they and GAMI have worked on a business arrangement aimed to be mutually beneficial.
 
If ERAU was interested in lower fuel costs, they can start pumping mogas into their 172 today. I don't know what else they fly, but there's plenty of Cessnas that are approved for mogas. G100UL isn't going to be cheap, and it certainly isn't going to be less than 100LL for a long time. If G100UL is the only alternative, and other fuels aren't approved, the price will skyrocket once it start shipping.
 
docmirror said:
If ERAU was interested in lower fuel costs, they can start pumping mogas into their 172 today. I don't know what else they fly, but there's plenty of Cessnas that are approved for mogas. G100UL isn't going to be cheap, and it certainly isn't going to be less than 100LL for a long time. If G100UL is the only alternative, and other fuels aren't approved, the price will skyrocket once it start shipping.
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The engines are approved for certain mogas (I did the approval), but I don't know about airframes. Both must be approved.

Business arrangements can be interesting...
 
Skylane81E said:
The IO-360-L2A?
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Yes. That was on the list.

SI1070S is the latest revision, updated earlier this year and they added a bunch of engines to the list, as well as a few new fuels.
 
I don't know anything about Cessnas but is there a 172 that is not on the mogas list? I thought they were all there but like I said, I'm not a 172 expert by any means. Just seems that any 172 avail would be approved for it.
 
docmirror said:
I don't know anything about Cessnas but is there a 172 that is not on the mogas list? I thought they were all there but like I said, I'm not a 172 expert by any means. Just seems that any 172 avail would be approved for it.
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Engine and airframe are different kettles of fish. I think all 172 engines could use MoGas.

Airframes, that's another matter that I don't have insight into. Things like vapor pressure are important, and the particular fuel system configuration matters.
 
docmirror said:
I don't know anything about Cessnas but is there a 172 that is not on the mogas list? I thought they were all there but like I said, I'm not a 172 expert by any means. Just seems that any 172 avail would be approved for it.
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To the best of my knowledge the new fuel injected ones are not on the list
 
Skylane81E said:
To the best of my knowledge the new fuel injected ones are not on the list
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That makes sense. It's also likely the model that ERAU would have, thus maybe no mogas.
 
docmirror said:
That makes sense. It's also likely the model that ERAU would have, thus maybe no mogas.
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Our retired ERAU 172 is an R that had the engine swapped to the 180hp SP unit (along with upgross) the instant they got it in their grubby little hands
 
N801BH said:
Now politely remind people that trees and all growing things NEED CO2 for growth.... Carbon Dioxide is not the killer some alarmist make it out to be..:no::nonod:
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All humans need O2 to breathe, but if you give us too much of it for too much time, we're not going to last very long. It's all about the balance (not the rhetoric).
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The reason ERAU is interested is not only marketing, but they have been looking for ways to reduce their fuel costs for a long time. I'm sure they and GAMI have worked on a business arrangement aimed to be mutually beneficial.
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I wasn't going to come out and say it because folks get cranky when you point out things that are Marketed as "green" and "saving the planet" usually are lining someone's pockets and that's their main goal.
 
denverpilot said:
I wasn't going to come out and say it because folks get cranky when you point out things that are Marketed as "green" and "saving the planet" usually are lining someone's pockets and that's their main goal.
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You mean Al Gore isn't just some benevolent soul after all? :eek:
 
denverpilot said:
I wasn't going to come out and say it because folks get cranky when you point out things that are Marketed as "green" and "saving the planet" usually are lining someone's pockets and that's their main goal.
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So Ford and GM sell gas guzzlers out of the goodness of their hearts and sell hybirds to line their pockets? ;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
So Ford and GM sell gas guzzlers out of the goodness of their hearts and sell hybirds to line their pockets? ;)
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Ford and GM are chomping at the bits to sell you H2 fuel cell cars, so is every other major car manufacturer in the world, they all have them rolling, you even get to keep your SUV, they are just waiting for an energy company to produce the fuel.
 
N801BH said:
Nate is right on with his oversight on this...:yes:..


Young greenies voted in this administration and are blind to the fact of how phony the whole agenda is......

As for the 100 grand student loan debt....... mark my words, In the next election cycle there will be talk of forgiving that debt just to buy votes... Also keep in mind..... outstanding student loan debt is over 1 TRILLION dollars.... :hairraise:


Goodbye America... it was a great country at one time...:sad::sad:
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It's not the agenda that's phoney, it's how it's being handled that's phoney. We could be the worlds leading exporter of fuel and water produced completely cleanly, but it would require investment in infrastructure that private industry refuses to make. They will wait for an emergency where the public tax payer will fund the construction of the new infrastructure. Same story, different day. Most all of our current energy infrastructure was developed and paid for by public funds, ie, tax dollars through military appropriations. Our pipelines keep blowing up because they date back to WWII.
 
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