Under hood for commercial XC?

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rookie1255

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rookie1255
If I'm training to get my instrument rating but also want to get commercial requirements done, can i fly part of the 100nm dual xc under the hood? If so, it would knock the comm xc and also build my xc pic time and also count as hood time. Or is this too much to ask from one flight?
 
Nothing wrong with that as long as it specifically covers the areas of training outlined in the regs for a commercial pilot (61.127(b)).

It used to be the case that the commercial XC needed to be done VFR, but that was changed several years ago.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
Nothing wrong with that as long as it specifically covers the areas of training outlined in the regs for a commercial pilot (61.127(b)).

It used to be the case that the commercial XC needed to be done VFR, but that was changed several years ago.
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Yeah, under the hood but the flight would still be VFR. At least, that's my interpretation. Just didn't want the examiner to disqualify the xc come checkride time.
 
It's been a while, but I seem to recall using the long IFR cross country as my commercial day XC flight. Examiner didn't care (assuming he even noticed). Ask your CFI what he/she thinks. I don't think it's an issue, but sometimes examiners have different interpretations of the rules. This is where a CFI familiar with the examiner comes in handy.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
It's been a while, but I seem to recall using the long IFR cross country as my commercial day XC flight. Examiner didn't care (assuming he even noticed). Ask your CFI what he/she thinks. I don't think it's an issue, but sometimes examiners have different interpretations of the rules. This is where a CFI familiar with the examiner comes in handy.
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I considered that too, but the long ifr xc is on an ifr flight plan. The commercial xc's are vfr day and night is my understanding.
 
There's a 300nm/250nm to the farthest point xc for commercial as well. That one can be done with a cfi onboard or solo.

My understanding was that you should own that flight, not be using it for instruction if the cfi is onboard though. But legally you could combine the 2

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The XC on the instrument must be done under IFR and as instruction.
The XC for the commercial must be VFR and either solo or with the CFI playing dummy in the right seat.

They are mutually exclusive on those two points. As pointed out, you could technically fly simulated instrument VFR and still count it for the commercial XC and additional instrument time needed to make the 40 total, but you can't count it as instruction.
 
There are three commercial cross countries, and I think people are confusing them.

The "long" one is solo or with a bored instructor. There are two others, which must have an instructor aboard (they are "training"), one night and one day. They are not required to be VFR, just 2 hours long and 100 miles. One of those two can overlap with the IFR cross country.
 
flyingron said:
The XC on the instrument must be done under IFR and as instruction.
The XC for the commercial must be VFR and either solo or with the CFI playing dummy in the right seat.

They are mutually exclusive on those two points. As pointed out, you could technically fly simulated instrument VFR and still count it for the commercial XC and additional instrument time needed to make the 40 total, but you can't count it as instruction.
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Maybe I haven't had enough caffeine this morning, but I am completely not seeing the VFR requirement in 61.129

61.129(a)
(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

(i) and (ii) are separate requirements

It also says performing the duties of, not that you need to BE PIC - unless there's a CC letter saying the regs don't say what they actually say.
 
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rookie1255 said:
I considered that too, but the long ifr xc is on an ifr flight plan. The commercial xc's are vfr day and night is my understanding.
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Doesn't have to be VFR. As long as they are day and night 100 miles and 2 hours you're good.
 
It also says performing the duties of, not that you need to BE PIC - unless there's a CC letter saying the regs don't say what they actually say.
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Never said anything about PIC. The rule says performing the duties of the PIC or solo. It's going to be hard to argue that the intent of is is to allow things to double up with instruction. The only reason the dummy-CFI provision was added was that it was getting harder to find schools that would rent a solo aircraft in these situations.

You are however right, the requirement that the XC be done VFR was removed on October 20, 2009. I missed that one.
 
How sad.

The whole point of that operation was the be able to look at your MAP (before moving maps) and out the window and be able to go 300nm and back BY YOURSELF.

AND EVEN THAT, was just a passing grade, basically you're just shooting for a grade of 70% on your flight experience if that's the furthest your flown by yourself using VISUAL landmarks

Now you don't even need to have your eyeballs outside and you can bring a CFI to coddle you.

This really takes out the quality of professional pilots we are turning out.

I flew a VFR as in visual, not virtual reality iPad, aircraft across the country (east coast to west coast) for mine, and that was one of many cross countries, many of my flights leading up to that we're over 300nm, I mean what are kids don't nowadays, just flying little circles in the "training area" and dividing their scan between their iWhatever and the Hobbs?

If the best you've done was a 300.1nm x/c, eyes inside, with a iPad, with a CFI, I wouldn't be the CFI who would sign you off for a CPL ride, you may be legal, but I couldn't endorse something which would be dumbing down what it is to be a commercial pilot, nor would I feel you would be prepared to be trusted flying around with my family, on a paid flight, heck I wouldn't even want to ferrying a aircraft for me with that logbook.

Sorry, but a lot of these rule changes are really steps backwards.
 
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James331 said:
How sad.

The whole point of that operation was the be able to look at your MAP (before moving maps) and out the window and be able to go 300nm and back BY YOURSELF.

Now you don't even need to have your eyeballs outside and you can bring a CFI to coddle you.

This really takes out the quality of professional pilots we are turning out.



Sorry, but a lot of these rule changes are really steps backwards.
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Couldn't agree more. I would never fly along with a student on a XC even if the reg required it. I'd give up my CFI Certificate first.
 
Plus you'd have to pay for the instructor's time as well. Although, my long commercial cross country was quite boring by myself for 8 hours.
 
mscard88 said:
Couldn't agree more. I would never fly along with a student on a XC even if the reg required it. I'd give up my CFI Certificate first.
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Indeed.

I can see it now, 50 years into the future, you'll be able to just pencil whip the flight, so long as you watch a YouTube video of someone else flying a 300nm X/C lol
 
What if a student wants you to sign off for his CPL check ride based in part on a cross-country he flew before you met him, logged as 11 hours spanning 600nm and 13 landings at different public grass strip airports in a J-3 Cub with just a sectional and a wristwatch? Or do you need to be involved in this flight in some instructional capacity in order to sign off for the check ride? I'll want to get my CPL someday and may as well have some fun between now and then, especially if it will help meet the requirements of the certificate in addition to being a very manly way to disappear for a day or two and land the Cub at every public grass strip on the other side of the state from me.
 
iamtheari said:
What if a student wants you to sign off for his CPL check ride based in part on a cross-country he flew before you met him, logged as 11 hours spanning 600nm and 13 landings at different public grass strip airports in a J-3 Cub with just a sectional and a wristwatch? Or do you need to be involved in this flight in some instructional capacity in order to sign off for the check ride? I'll want to get my CPL someday and may as well have some fun between now and then, especially if it will help meet the requirements of the certificate in addition to being a very manly way to disappear for a day or two and land the Cub at every public grass strip on the other side of the state from me.
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I'd be VERY happy with someone with enough sense and airmanship to do that.

And NO I DONT need, or want, to be involved in the flight, that's the whole point, you need to have your big pilots pants on and do those long VFR (eyes outside) X/Cs without the saftey net of a CFI sitting next to you.
 
James makes a great point, would you feel comfortable with a private pilot who didn't do the PPL "long XC"? How would you feel about a CPL who wasn't comfortable or experienced with what is a relatively minor and routine flight. I've found these longer flights enlightening and to be good unexpected learning opportunities. 300NM/3 hrs is not much to ask for either for distance or time.

If you're looking for reasons to go, air museums are great I did KASH -> KIAD to visit the air and space museum for a day. Wright Patterson has an awesome museum I'd love to visit. If you're into running sign up for a 10k 300 miles away. If you like beer find a brewery you want to tour, 300 miles away and stay the night. If you like sports visit your team on the road. It isn't hard to find a reason to go, especially when you get to tell your family "sorry can't bring you along guvmn't won't let me, gotta have a weekend to myself" or fly them commercial to meet you
 
Do one leg as the IFR x country. Do the return leg as the commercial cross country. Just make it long enough to cover the commercial requirements.
 
I realize a lot of folks are just trying to save money, but I don't understand why you would want to cheat yourself out of the experience that will make you successful in the the long run.

Cut too many corners and you end up getting mocked on the Internet for the Gastons departure video you posted on YouTube. :)
 
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The only thing that an instructor is signing off on about the cross countries is that they are in the logbook. LIke James said, they should have been done long before they come looking for an instructor for a commercial. Mine was San Jose cal to Dallas with about 100 hr in my log book.

Bob
 
Dave Theisen said:
I realize a lot of folks are just trying to save money, but I don't understand why you would want to cheat yourself out of the experience that will make you successful in the the long run.

Cut too many corners and you end up getting mocked on the Internet for the Gastons departure video you posted on YouTube. :)
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what did I miss? Sounds like it might be entertaining.....
 
Another hinderance why people don't take longer cross countries could be an FBO issue as well like not letting renters rent for that long.
 
Not to long ago I did a FR/IPC for a CFII-MEI with around 4k hours in his logbook. I failed the 530 while he was under the hood, heading to an airport he had never been to. He was completely lost! Couldn't figure out where he was using 2 vor's, an ADF and low altitude en routes. Removed the hood and went to sectional,still no joy. He also refused to do more than a 50* bank angle during the VFR portion of the review. Long story short He became very irate when I challenged the hours in the logbook,his qualifications to be a PP let alone all the advanced ratings. (he was a graduate of a pilot mill type school) I did not endorse the review, nor did I charge him for the time. The review was conducted in his airplane (M20F). In case any one cares I have been an instructor since 1992, hold CFII-MEI and have over 6k hours TT with a little over half that as dual given, so this was not my first rodeo. Main thing I have seen over the years is pilots are being trained to PTS standards and VERY little effort is given to stick and rudder skills. I don't much care for the changes.
 
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