UND Crash…reversal of Germanwings

[bflynn]

Or, they could just defer to medical professionals who actually see the patients to make these judgements, instead of prescriptively applying the same requirements to all applicants. Again, where is the proof that all of this actually benefits safety?

Hey Bob, look at this medical application. The guy has been diagnosed with a mental illness that has unpredictable effects. He could go postal and crash his plane into the mountains or he could be a great guy. But you know, the medical diagnosis on this is iffy, so I think we should take our chances that he won't be one of the suicidal one.

Is that the FAA system you imagine?

 

[pilot445]

Hey Bob, look at this medical application. The guy has been diagnosed with a mental illness that has unpredictable effects. He could go postal and crash his plane into the mountains or he could be a great guy. But you know, the medical diagnosis on this is iffy, so I think we should take our chances that he won't be one of the suicidal one.

Is that the FAA system you imagine?

That’s exactly the system that exists under sport pilot. And yet we don’t have a pandemic of sport pilot crashes.

 

[bflynn]

Well, there's only about 6600 sport pilot certificates in the US out of 690,000 total certificates held (about 1%), so unless they all have mental health issues, there isn't ever going to be a pandemic of sport pilot crashes. There's no way to know the number of private pilots flying under sport rules.

In the past 10 years, there have been 17 crashes ruled suicide by the NTSB and only a few that were ruled intentional. One of those was in a J-3, intentional flight into the ground. The non-intentional ones were ones where the was some post crash indication the pilot was suicidal, but only crashed after engaging in dangerous maneuvers - think Ron Halladay.

But if we're honest, N=17 is hardly enough to do statistics with. If it were, we could say that 1% of the pilots (sport) represented 5.8% of all suicide crashes and 20-25% of intentional ones. But given the very low numbers, you cannot make a claim for or against.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The non-intentional ones were ones where the was some post crash indication the pilot was suicidal, but only crashed after engaging in dangerous maneuvers - think Ron Halladay.

This one is a perfect example of anti-authoritarian attitudes being the real safety risk that is still a big contributor to accidents. I wonder how many CFI's can identify these anti-authoritarian attitudes, but the student manages to suppress it just enough that the CFI doesn't do anything about it and keeps the student on track to finish their cert.

 

[Lindberg]

Or, they could just defer to medical professionals who actually see the patients to make these judgements, instead of prescriptively applying the same requirements to all applicants.

They do defer to the professionals who diagnose these patients. But some here are saying they shouldn't defer to those professionals because the professionals are actually quacks over diagnosing everyone.... It seems there's no way for the FAA to win as long as someone can't get a medical.

 

[pilot445]

They do defer to the professionals who diagnose these patients. But some here are saying they shouldn't defer to those professionals because the professionals address actually quacks over diagnosing everyone....

I second the quacks. Doctors don’t realize the consequences of their diagnosis for pilots. They don’t stop to think of the drastic consequences one wrong diagnosis code can have. As we have seen on many threads, they throw around terms like BiPolar like Candy. And the FAA makes it impossible to remove diagnosis that are frequently incorrect.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I second the quacks. Doctors don’t realize the consequences of their diagnosis for pilots. They don’t stop to think of the drastic consequences one wrong diagnosis code can have. As we have seen on many threads, they throw around terms like BiPolar like Candy. And the FAA makes it impossible to remove diagnosis that are frequently incorrect.

The FAA doesn't seem to recognize the motive, right or wrong, of docs to use a Dx code for insurance reimbursement vs. what a formal, written Dx, not just an insurance code, would look like.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Sometimes it better not to ask question you really don't want answered for yourself.

That seems contrary to your position.

 

[bbchien]

Incorrect, Jeff (11:45 am). They prevented a crash in the US system. JAA failed.
We monitored him. JAA, no so much.

 

[Palmpilot]

ADHD has been wildly over-diagnosed for the last 20 years. Any kid (especially boys) who struggles in school for any reason is pushed to get a diagnosis, prescription, and accomodations so they don't "fall behind." Many of these kids have nothing wrong other than minor delays in focus and self control that they will grow out of.

The military gets this, so while ADHD is disqualifying, waivers are easy to obtain as long as you don't need medication. They take the sensible view that training standards will screen out those who cannot actually learn and perform. If the FAA had any incentive to be reasonable, they could adopt a similar approach.

Speaking of incentives to be reasonable, I wonder what would happen if people were required to get and maintain an FAA medical certificate in order to get and keep a job at the FAA. Can't have depressed people making decisions about aviation safety, now can we?

 

[pilot445]

Speaking of incentives to be reasonable, I wonder what would happen if people were required to get and maintain an FAA medical certificate in order to get and keep a job at the FAA. Can't have depressed people making decisions about aviation safety, now can we?

While we are at it, why not require politicians to get a third class medical? Can’t have depressed people making decisions about when the nukes fly.

 

[Palmpilot]

Really all I want to do is fly under basic med rules, and I’d be happy as a clam

At least that only requires a one-time SI, and then the excessive unnecessary medical costs stop.

 

[Echo419]

What I’d like to know….if every pilot was required to take Cogscreen, MMPI, and ADHD tests, what % would pass?

For the Cogscreen the answer is a lot. Scoring below the 15th percentile in any of the tests (I think there are 10) is a "failure". And we're not talking about the 15th percentile of the general public, it's the 15th percentile of other pilots.

 

[Half Fast]

For the Cogscreen the answer is a lot. Scoring below the 15th percentile in any of the tests (I think there are 10) is a "failure". And we're not talking about the 15th percentile of the general public, it's the 15th percentile of other pilots.

In that case, the answer would be known: 85% would pass. But since not all pilots are tested I am not sure how the 15th percentile among pilots was established.

 

[pilot445]

In that case, the answer would be known: 85% would pass. But since not all pilots are tested I am not sure how the 15th percentile among pilots was established.

At Oshkosh, with the identities anonymized so the bottom 15% wouldn’t get their medical pulled.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/july/25/take-cogscreen-test-at-airventure

 

[Half Fast]

At Oshkosh, with the identities anonymized so the bottom 15% wouldn’t get their medical pulled.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/july/25/take-cogscreen-test-at-airventure

So it's really 15 percent of Osh-attending pilots?

 

[Tantalum]

At Oshkosh, with the identities anonymized so the bottom 15% wouldn’t get their medical pulled.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/july/25/take-cogscreen-test-at-airventure

Sounds like a fun puzzle.. incidentally, they could have used something other than "testee"

"test taker"
"examinee"
"applicant"
"subject"
"participant"
..



By the way... if a "time-distance math problem" is making a would-be Delta pilot's "brain hurt" then yes.. probably 15% should have their license/medical pulled

I recently flew with someone who used some ridiculous rule of thumb to plot their TOD instead of just doing the math in their heads "if we have 5,000 ft to lose, and we plan our descent for 500 fpm, then how far out should we start the descent" was a bridge too far. Either that, or messing with the Foreflight and Garmin's utilities tools was more tantalizing.

PS - math exercises are a great way to gauge and be ahead of the game to potential hypoxia. If you plan a 3 hr flight at 11,5 with no O2 you're legal.. but not super safe


/mini rant over

 

[Tantalum]

So it's really 15 percent of Osh-attending pilots?

 

[Tantalum]

Speaking of incentives to be reasonable, I wonder what would happen if people were required to get and maintain an FAA medical certificate in order to get and keep a job at the FAA. Can't have depressed people making decisions about aviation safety, now can we?

While said in jest, this is not a bad idea. Many job applicants have to undergo some sort of cognitive screening. On a serious note, what about ATC, do they require any sort of medical qualifications? Didn't we have a drug addict Las Vegas controller a few years ago?

 

[Ed Haywood]

But since not all pilots are tested I am not sure how the 15th percentile among pilots was established.

Central Limit Theorem.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

So it's really 15 percent of Osh-attending pilots?

If this is fact how it was established, I'd like to see proof that an OSH-attending pilot represents the typical pilot. I'd venture to guess that pilots who are less sure of their skills don't go to OSH.

 

[Palmpilot]

On a serious note, what about ATC, do they require any sort of medical qualifications?

It appears that they do.

For non-FAA tower operators:

Second-Class - Commercial Pilot; Flight Engineer; Flight Navigator; or Air Traffic Control Tower Operator. (Note: This category of air traffic controller does not include FAA employee air traffic control specialists)​

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...es/aam/ame/guide/app_process/general/classes/

For controllers who are employed by the FAA:

The following explains methods and procedures for ensuring that employees engaged in the actual control of air traffic meet the medical requirements of the Office of Personnel and Management Qualification Standards as outlined by FAA Order 3930.3, Air Traffic Control Specialist Health Program, and Title 14 CFR Part 65 and Part 67. The Regional Flight Surgeon/Assistant Regional Flight Surgeon (hereinafter referred to as Flight Surgeon) will perform required examinations or review reports of medical examinations and ancillary tests to make a determination as to whether medical requirements are met. Supervisors should obtain the medical opinion of the Flight Surgeon concerning any employee whose medical condition appears questionable; details of the problem should be presented to the Flight Surgeon for an evaluation and determination in accordance with FAA Order 3930.3.

1. MEDICAL CLEARANCE REQUIREMENTS

Personnel actively engaged in the separation and control of air traffic, including Traffic Management Coordinators (TMCs) must possess a current medical clearance....​

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html/chap2_section_8.html

Details on that medical clearance process are contained in the FAA order referenced above. See Chapter 2 for details on the medical clearance process, and Appendix A for the standards that are applied.

FAA Order 3930.3C

 

[Radar Contact]

On a serious note, what about ATC, do they require any sort of medical qualifications?

Yes. Second class. Same docs, forms, and possible issues pilots face.