UND Crash…reversal of Germanwings

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Principal

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There is a lot of chatter out there that this UND student crash was a suicide and that people of interest have taken notice to finding the root cause. Curious what people who have been around here a long time think this will do to the HIMS program? Apparently there is a meeting being held with the FAA and a major as a result of this to discuss changes to how mental health is treated by the FAA.
 
Keithlewis1900 said:
Get ready for annual psychologist testing to hold a medical.
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First and foremost, I’d be careful about jumping to conclusions, is there any evidence that this was a deliberate pilot suicide? If it was, what were the odds that he didn’t disclose his condition vs him actually doing so and getting a SI.

Given the small numbers of valid SI’s for psychiatric disorders, I’d wager he probably didn’t disclose then. (Which really given the FAA’s current system, can we particularly blame someone for not disclosing?).

Which would you rather have, someone with untreated depression, ADHD, ect not disclosing, and self medicating/limping through their struggles to keep flying? Or someone who isn’t worried they’d get a blanket rejection, and is receiving treatment.
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
First and foremost, I’d be careful about jumping to conclusions, is there any evidence that this was a deliberate pilot suicide? If it was, what were the odds that he didn’t disclose his condition vs him actually doing so and getting a SI.

Given the small numbers of valid SI’s for psychiatric disorders, I’d wager he probably didn’t disclose then. (Which really given the FAA’s current system, can we particularly blame someone for not disclosing?).

Which would you rather have, someone with untreated depression, ADHD, ect not disclosing, and self medicating/limping through their struggles to keep flying? Or someone who isn’t worried they’d get a blanket rejection, and is receiving treatment.
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I worry about more government overstep and irrational FAA medical policies.
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
(Which really given the FAA’s current system, can we particularly blame someone for not disclosing?).
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can we blame a pilot for being a scofflaw? 100% yes. I don’t care how badly a pilot wanted to fly, it they knew they needed help and didn’t get it because it would mess up their flying, then I blame them. Health first.

If they didn’t know, I still assign blame to them. Part of the responsibility of being a pilot is honesty about our own fitness to fly.
 
bflynn said:
can we blame a pilot for being a scofflaw? 100% yes. I don’t care how badly a pilot wanted to fly, it they knew they needed help and didn’t get it because it would mess up their flying, then I blame them. Health first.

If they didn’t know, I still assign blame to them. Part of the responsibility of being a pilot is honesty about our own fitness to fly.
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You’re part of the problem.
 
bflynn said:
can we blame a pilot for being a scofflaw? 100% yes. I don’t care how badly a pilot wanted to fly, it they knew they needed help and didn’t get it because it would mess up their flying, then I blame them. Health first.

If they didn’t know, I still assign blame to them. Part of the responsibility of being a pilot is honesty about our own fitness to fly.
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Is it truly constructive to say to a depressed person that you would have to jump through hoops of fire if you received professional help on potentially one of your last enjoyable hobbies?

In what world can someone who is on two low dose SSRI’s or someone with a single suicide attempt from 5 years ago have to run the gauntlet for a class 3 medical SI, (and even then face a significant chance of denial).

Yet someone random guy who’s hearing voices and got released from a voluntary psychiatric admission the same afternoon, could come into my or any other gun shop in the majority of states and buy a AK with a 75 round drum and only the discretion of the store owner could legally stop him.

I fear that in the pursuit of safety, aviation regulators have detached themselves from reality.

I mean how many peoples nephews, nieces, sons and daughters have a diagnosable condition today? Anxiety, depression, ADHD, ect.

According to the NIH 29.4%! Of people between the ages of 18-25 has a diagnosable mental illness.
A0F2C57E-1767-4EA8-B162-61B5CE7B93EB.png

8.4% of people between the ages of 18 to 25 have a severe diagnosable mental illness.

23550AF9-846C-4C62-B1E7-6379644ACBFF.png

Mind you this data was taken in 2019.
I can only imagine how much higher that number is after 2020.

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/mental-illness

(I did not include this data so I didn’t run on too much, but it’s here for further reading should someone be interested.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/mental-health-disorder-statistics )


I will agree with you that the buck does stop with the PIC.
 
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Keithlewis1900 said:
You’re part of the problem.
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Not everybody is fit fly an aircraft, drive a car, own a firearm, perform open-heart surgery, etc. and never will be, no matter how much you want it or wish it or think it.
There is a reason why activities that require higher functionality have a more stringent selection process.
If you don’t understand this concept, then you’re part of the problem.
 
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Morgan3820 said:
Given the current state of psychiatry, Is severe mental illness actual curable? Or merely treatable?
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Just as with many medical issues, there isn't a bright-line between severe/minimally treatable vs. moderate/treatable. You also need to look at why a treatable mental health issue should be looked at substantially different from a treatable physical condition, i.e. heart disease.

The FAA has bred a system that discourages pilots from disclosing medical conditions. When faced with that reality, they often appear to dig in and make the situation worse.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Not everybody is fit fly an aircraft, drive a car, own a firearm, perform open-heart surgery, etc. and never will be, no matter how much you want it or wish it or think it.
There is a reason why activities that require higher functionality have a more stringent selection process.
If you don’t understand this concept, then you’re part of the problem.
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There’s a difference between an individual going through a patch of depression versus an individual with lower cognitive abilities and learning disabilities.
 
What evidence do they have of any of this?

From what I hear the FAA majorly discourages people from getting mental help if they need it.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
You also need to look at why a treatable mental health issue should be looked at substantially different from a treatable physical condition, i.e. heart disease.
.
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Perhaps because the origins of treatable physical conditions, i.e. heart disease are so much better understood than the underlying origins of treatable mental health issues, i.e. schizophrenia.
 
Keithlewis1900 said:
There’s a difference between an individual going through a patch of depression versus an individual with lower cognitive abilities and learning disabilities.
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Difference? Perhaps, And Yet the end result appears to be identical in this case.
So how much confidence do you have that this young man’s issues would’ve improved once he got behind the controls of an Airbus a 320 with a couple hundred people in it?
 
Morgan3820 said:
Not everybody is fit fly an aircraft, drive a car, own a firearm, perform open-heart surgery, etc. and never will be, no matter how much you want it or wish it or think it.
There is a reason why activities that require higher functionality have a more stringent selection process.
If you don’t understand this concept, then you’re part of the problem.
Click to expand...

I actually included something related to that in a post edit I just put up, but I’ll copy the relevant portion as a response towards you.

“In what world can someone who is on two low dose SSRI’s or someone with a single suicide attempt from 5 years ago have to run the gauntlet for a class 3 medical SI, (and even then face a significant chance of denial).

Yet someone random guy who’s hearing voices and got released from a voluntary psychiatric admission the same afternoon, could come into my or any other gun shop in the majority of states and buy a AK with a 75 round drum and only the discretion of the store owner could legally stop him.”

Mind you the same hypothetical person, or some guy with bipolar disorder could also buy a F450 on some manic spree with their standard DL. Hell if they had they money they could buy a tank legally if they kept it off a public road.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Difference? Perhaps, And Yet the end result appears to be identical in this case.
So how much confidence do you have that this young man’s issues would’ve improved once he got behind the controls of an Airbus a 320 with a couple hundred people in it?
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I actually would have no issue with someone who is flying passengers for hire, being held to a higher standard.

But for general aviation the current system is ridiculous, and even commercial it’s better to have a pilot in treatment working on issues, than suffering in silence for years, bottling it up until someone has a mental breakdown.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Difference? Perhaps, And Yet the end result appears to be identical in this case.
So how much confidence do you have that this young man’s issues would’ve improved once he got behind the controls of an Airbus a 320 with a couple hundred people in it?
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You don’t. But at least if there was a process that allows airmen to seek help, and eventually return to the flight deck under a “monitored” condition seems like a better idea than forcing airmen to hide a mental illness.
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
I actually included something related to that in a post edit I just put up, but I’ll copy the relevant portion as a response towards you.

“In what world can someone who is on two low dose SSRI’s or someone with a single suicide attempt from 5 years ago have to run the gauntlet for a class 3 medical SI, (and even then face a significant chance of denial).

Yet someone random guy who’s hearing voices and got released from a voluntary psychiatric admission the same afternoon, could come into my or any other gun shop in the majority of states and buy a AK with a 75 round drum and only the discretion of the store owner could legally stop him.”

Mind you the same hypothetical person, or some guy with bipolar disorder could also buy a F450 on some manic spree with their standard DL. Hell if they had they money they could buy a tank legally if they kept it off a public road.
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Perhaps I misunderstand but what I read apparently it’s your argument that because you have somebody who hears voices can buy a gun it is OK that somebody with documented suicidal ideation should be able to fly an airplane?
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
I actually would have no issue with someone who is flying passengers for hire, being held to a higher standard.

But for general aviation the current system is ridiculous, and even commercial it’s better to have a pilot in treatment working on issues, than suffering in silence for years, bottling it up until someone has a mental breakdown.
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So passengers that pay a fly should have more protections than one to just go along for the ride?
 
Principal said:
There is a lot of chatter out there that this UND student crash was a suicide and that people of interest have taken notice to finding the root cause. Curious what people who have been around here a long time think this will do to the HIMS program? Apparently there is a meeting being held with the FAA and a major as a result of this to discuss changes to how mental health is treated by the FAA.
Click to expand...
So we gone from he may have committed suicide to he was a HIMS suicide?
 
Keithlewis1900 said:
You don’t. But at least if there was a process that allows airmen to seek help, and eventually return to the flight deck under a “monitored” condition seems like a better idea than forcing airmen to hide a mental illness.
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Help me understand why you seem care more about the rights of the individual pilot than you do about the several hundred people that are flying behind them. Help me understand that.
Your arguments keep relying upon emotions and feel good things rather than any real kind of logic. Are we going to start name calling next?
 
Morgan3820 said:
Help me understand why you seem care more about the rights of the individual pilot than you do about the several hundred people that are flying behind them. Help me understand that.
Your arguments keep relying upon emotions and feel good things rather than any real kind of logic.
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I suppose your privilege has allowed you to never suffer from trauma. Imagine if you your child or spouse died. That would clearly put someone into a depressive state where they should seek mental help. Eventually that individual should be able to prove they are rehabilitated.

I’m not talking about the schizophrenic guy hearing voices. There’s a difference.
 
Keithlewis1900 said:
I suppose your privilege has allowed you to never suffer from trauma. Imagine if you your child or spouse died. That would clearly put someone into a depressive state where they should seek mental help. Eventually that individual should be able to prove they are rehabilitated.

I’m not talking about the schizophrenic guy hearing voices. There’s a difference.
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Don’t suppose. You have no idea what I have gone through. you have crossed the line.
Going to ignore mode in 3,2,1...
 
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Morgan3820 said:
So passengers that pay a fly should have more protections than one to just go along for the ride?
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Yeah, because generally those who fly with a private pilot probably know said private pilot.

I am reasonably confident my friends and family would trust my judgment in the left seat just as much if not more than another pilot if we had a similar amount of hours/similar ratings.

Hell if it moved the needle at all, if part of a SI I was required to maintain a disclosure of my entire medical history, that had to be signed and dated by them each calendar year, I’d still be confident anyone who I’ve known for 3+ years (who would’ve been receptive with flying GA to begin with) would all say yes.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Perhaps I misunderstand but what I read apparently it’s your argument that because you have somebody who hears voices can buy a gun it is OK that somebody with documented suicidal ideation should be able to fly an airplane?
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I’m saying because someone who walked out of a psychiatric hospital the same day can buy a AK legally (even if the “voices” in his head told him to do it). Then why is it so controversial to say someone who has a past history of depression, or someone with a suicide attempt 5 years ago to obtain a class 3 medical while being monitored/treated? I.E. significantly lowering the standards of entry to a SI certificate.
 
To clarify - I was suggesting that this incident may induce changes to the HIMS program and not that the student was in HIMS. Though he did get a DUI so he most certainly would have ended up in HIMS.
 
bflynn said:
can we blame a pilot for being a scofflaw? 100% yes. I don’t care how badly a pilot wanted to fly, it they knew they needed help and didn’t get it because it would mess up their flying, then I blame them. Health first.

If they didn’t know, I still assign blame to them. Part of the responsibility of being a pilot is honesty about our own fitness to fly.
Click to expand...

Health first is really easy to say if flying isn’t your job; being homeless is also pretty bad for ones health.
 
Principal said:
To clarify - I was suggesting that this incident may induce changes to the HIMS program and not that the student was in HIMS. Though he did get a DUI so he most certainly would have been in HIMS.
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What type of changes do you suggest?
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
I’m saying because someone who walked out of a psychiatric hospital the same day can buy a AK legally (even if the “voices” in his head told him to do it).

I don’t think that somebody who is hearing voices should be able to acquire a firearm. For what it’s worth, at least in my state, in order to get a concealed carry permit you Can’t have any history of mental illness.

Then why is it so controversial to say someone who has a past history of depression, or someone with a suicide attempt 5 years ago to obtain a class 3 medical while being monitored/treated? I.E. significantly lowering the standards of entry to a SI certificate.
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Are they cured? My issue with all of this mental illness and flying thing is that we I have a very poor understanding of the origins of mental illness. It is much easier to say if someone’s heart is healthy and pumping appropriately then it is if somebody’s mental state is functioning adequately. Psychology books are rewritten all the time. Anatomy and physiology books not so much.
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
I’m saying because someone who walked out of a psychiatric hospital the same day can buy a AK legally (even if the “voices” in his head told him to do it). Then why is it so controversial to say someone who has a past history of depression, or someone with a suicide attempt 5 years ago to obtain a class 3 medical while being monitored/treated? I.E. significantly lowering the standards of entry to a SI certificate.
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I take it you've never filled out a 4473.

Short version, no you cannot walk out of a psych ward and legally buy a firearm of any kind.
 
DavidWhite said:
Health first is really easy to say if flying isn’t your job; being homeless is also pretty bad for ones health.
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Life isn’t easy. It is harder with bad judgements. If flying is your job then you have a responsibility to the people who you fly with. It’s all about integrity and personal accountability.
I find it sad that this is even up for debate.
 
aftCG said:
I take it you've never filled out a 4473.

Short version, no you cannot walk out of a psych ward and legally buy a firearm of any kind.
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Excuse me? Tell me on a 4473 where it says someone who was voluntarily committed is prohibited from owning a firearm?

I’ll wait, because I’m going to lose my FFL if that’s the case lol. As I was voluntarily admitted to inpatient in Jan 2018
aftCG said:
I take it you've never filled out a 4473.

Short version, no you cannot walk out of a psych ward and legally buy a firearm of any kind.
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Morgan3820 said:
Life isn’t easy. It is harder with bad judgements. If flying is your job then you have a responsibility to the people who you fly with. It’s all about integrity and personal accountability.
I find it sad that this is even up for debate.
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I agree with this, I also agree with many of the other points made in this thread. DUIs disgust me, that's the ultimate show of bad judgment. And to be plastered enough to get pulled over and caught probably means it wasn't your first time and was not just a dumb accident. A cockpit is no place for bad judgment.

**Aviation should absolutely demand people be in tip top intellectual mental and physical health**

But, not all mental health issues are the same, some aren't even health issues. Sometimes people just need an unbiased third person perspective or someone to talk to. Lose a job, get divorced, find out a loved one is terminally ill, etc. Some people are able to handle those things on their own, others find it in religion, some turn to drugs and alcohol, and others could benefit from going to a few hours of therapy. Those few hours of therapy should not preclude someone from pursuing a career in aviation, and there shouldn't be such an intense stigma that they're afraid to get help.

Some of it is also just dumb luck. Go to a priest for guidance, or a best friend, no issue. Go to a therapist for guidance well guess what could be game over for you
 
Morgan3820 said:
Are they cured? My issue with all of this mental illness and flying thing is that we I have a very poor understanding of the origins of mental illness. It is much easier to say if someone’s heart is healthy and pumping appropriately then it is if somebody’s mental state is functioning adequately. Psychology books are rewritten all the time. Anatomy and physiology books not so much.
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No, we can say if someone is cured or not.
However does that mean someone with a chronic condition is thus incapable of performing airman’s duties? Mental illness is a huge spectrum, I don’t think any of us are advocating for someone with BPD, or Non verbal autism to fly.

Let’s try to look at it a different way, are we concerned more about suicide by pilot, a murder suicide with someone wishing to do others harm? Or is it somewhere between those extremes while also including general airmanship with the likes of ADHD, OCD ect

Has there really been a sharp uptick in accidents with regards to LSA? Yes if the standards are reduced, someone will eventually go through and cause harm to themselves or others.

But there has to be a certain amount of tolerance for those outliers. In your view, let’s say for ****s and giggles, that a reduction in standards after 5 years leads to a 2% increase in the current accident rate for pilot error. Would that in your mind warrant returning to the current system, or would it be a success in allowing 98% of those who otherwise were denied to fly, and had no incidents in such a hypothetical 5 year period.
 
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