Uncontrolled fields--be careful!

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
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Dave Siciliano
I had another situation situation develop while returning home yesterday from Florida. Made a planned stop at Gulf Shores, Al (KJKA-Jack Edwards field) and had a jet depart opposite direction while I was on short final. Just wanted to relate it; had my head on a swivel; made three radio calls on the way in; didn't seem to matter.

JKA has an ILS to runway 27 which is what I was set up for. Eglin Approach turned me over to Pensacola as I descended down from FL200. There was a Gulf Stream in front of me that called 11 mile straight in final when I called 20 out. After the Gulf Stream called they were clear of the active, I called 10 miles out; on three mile final, I called again.

In the meantime, a helicopter called and asked for traffic and the FBO advised him they know of the Gulf Stream and Baron on the way in. I had to get below a small cloud layer at 1,700 feet before I could clearly see the runway and cancel my IFR clearance; so, in between, I was still primarily monitoring approach. Just before canceling, Pensacola alertered me that a Westwind had just picked up an IFR clearance on the ground; I heard her issue the clearance but didn't hear the jet transmit.

Anyway, I was really looking for traffic having heard this and it's why I made another call right after clearing the clouds on what I estimate as three mile final. No calls were made besides mine that I heard after this call on three mile final.

Anyway, as I made my approach and could finally see the length of the runway, here comes a Westwind Jet opposite direction; I didn't pick him up until he rotated and was heading up; I was about 500 feet descending. I began a turn to the right to avoid, but noticed him turning shaply to his left; so, I turned sharply left and called that I was going around. Shortly afterward, he called and said everything was O.K.

I went around, came back and landed.

After I went in, the Gulf Stream pilot asked me about it and I asked if he heard the Westwind make any calls. He said he did not hear any from the Westwind, but did hear mine and almost got on the radio himself to warn us, but he was busy turning while taxiing in. The FBO also spoke up and said she didn't hear a call from the Westwind, but had heard mine. She said when the Westwind arrived, no calls were made and a couple folks had commented about that.

Anyway, it just helps me vent a bit to let y'all know. I'm calling Pensacola Tracon this morning to thank the controller for giving me the heads up she did. I'm always uncomfortable in situations like this (instrument approach into an uncontrolled field). The controller's warning about the clearance being issued helped me focus on what might be happening. (I also posted this on AvSig)

Best,

Dave
 
It would not be legal for the controller to issue an IFR release to that Westwind while you were on the approach to that nontowered airport unless you cancelled IFR. That's why I do not cancel IFR on approaches to nontowered airports unless it's really good VMC or I've got the full runway in sight.
 
Ron Levy said:
It would not be legal for the controller to issue an IFR release to that Westwind while you were on the approach to that nontowered airport unless you cancelled IFR. That's why I do not cancel IFR on approaches to nontowered airports unless it's really good VMC or I've got the full runway in sight.
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Exactly. Dave's cancellation triggered the Westwind's release. I always remain IFR and cancel on the ground via the RCO or 800# at uncontrolled fields.

Greg
 
Ron Levy said:
It would not be legal for the controller to issue an IFR release to that Westwind while you were on the approach to that nontowered airport unless you cancelled IFR. That's why I do not cancel IFR on approaches to nontowered airports unless it's really good VMC or I've got the full runway in sight.
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Ron: I think that's what happened. Someone called for a clearance while I was on final and the controller told them I hadn't canceled yet. I couldn't hear them, just the controller. I did want to cancel to be nice but there was this small bunch of clouds right on the approach course; other than that, VFR. I could have canceled and diverted VFR, but wanted to stay on the visual with Approach until I got through that layer. In retrospect, I'll bet the Westwind tried to blast out right after I canceled. He definitely knew I was on the way in.

When I cleared those last clouds, I made another call on unicom and could see the runway, but was too far out to observe traffic on the far end. It wasn't until I got in closer that I could see the jet rotating on departure.

I guess no good deed goes unpunished (canceling in the air rather than holding everyone up).

Best,

Dave
 
Dave;

I am glad you are here to tell us this scary story. :eek: Wow: is all I can say and I again I am very glad you are here and everyone else is ok.

John J
 
My last flight, I did exactly the same thing you did, Dave. Fortunately I was spared the jet in my face and the airport where I landed was quiet. Perhaps I will no longer take that for granted.
 
yea thats ridiculous. where were the radio calls? i hope tracon put 2 and 2 together (your complaint and the clearance they just gave) and got his N#.
 
Just for future reference for myself: Does it do any good to contact the operator's office to complain about the unsafe operation by one of their pilots? I hate being a person that nags on other pilots and I hate 'tattling' on other pilots, but if this guy came in and departed without ever making any radio calls, it might be a chain of events that could lead to deadly results in the future.
 
bummer dave, just part of the fun of uncontrolled fields. today on short final in the 421 i see a Pawnee on not-as-short final to the opposite runway. he circled and landed behind me, all was well. he even smiled when he taxied by me, but that may have had to do with the County Sheriff that got out after me.
 
Thanks for the good wishes and support.

I called Pensacola TRACON today and spoke with the manager. Gave good comments about his controller and he immediately knew who she was. As I explained what happened, he immediately said that field needed a tower very badly. He also asked for a few more details, then said he probably knew the owner of the Westwind.

I think some of these folks are just in too much of a hurry; maybe a VIP on board or something. He was trying to get out in a very narrow time frame and didn't quite make it. I hate to think of what would have happened if something had gone wrong on his departure. He would have had to abort while I was on short final. I just don't follow that kind of logic.

I made an approach to Winterhaven, Gilbert on the same trip (uncontrolled) that was humorous. As I called in ten miles out--straight in for the runway in use, there was obviously a student pilot in the pattern. She didn't quite know what to do. The instructor finally came on and called left base for the runway. I saw them; they never saw me, and I told them I do a left 360 and come in behind them. The instructor thanked me and I followed them in. It all seems to work out if folks just communicate.

What we had at JKA was: a failure to communicate right out of Cool Hand Luke!

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
When I cleared those last clouds, I made another call on unicom and could see the runway, but was too far out to observe traffic on the far end. It wasn't until I got in closer that I could see the jet rotating on departure.
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So next time you won't cancel until you can see the whole runway, right? In any event, I will never cancel IFR until I'm 500 below the lowest deck, even if it isn't reported as a ceiling.
I guess no good deed goes unpunished (canceling in the air rather than holding everyone up).
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When it comes to that, you gotta look out for yourself first. I've always been wary about canceling IFR at a nontowered airport before I'm on the ground -- an IFR departure may be released right in your face, you can find a dead airplane in the middle of the runway and have to go missed, all sorts of bad stuff.
 
Ron Levy said:
When it comes to that, you gotta look out for yourself first. I've always been wary about canceling IFR at a nontowered airport before I'm on the ground -- an IFR departure may be released right in your face, you can find a dead airplane in the middle of the runway and have to go missed, all sorts of bad stuff.
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Even if you do not cancel there may still be VFR traffic around that field (if the field is VMC) that is not subject to being held on the ground like the IFR traffic. So you still should be looking around for traffic. There is no guarantee that there will be nothing taking off in front of you or towards you just because you have not canceled IFR into an uncontrolled field.
 
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So next time you won't cancel until you can see the whole runway, right? In any event, I will never cancel IFR until I'm 500 below the lowest deck, even if it isn't reported as a ceiling.

Ron
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Probably not Ron, unless I'm in touch with the fella on the ground and he is coordinating the departure with me. I've done that before but there was too much traffic for me to do that here. Approach was pretty busy with the Sherman traffic--Nasal aviators in training I believe.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Best,

Dave
 
smigaldi said:
Even if you do not cancel there may still be VFR traffic around that field (if thw field is VMC) that is not subject to being held on the ground like the IFR traffic. So you still should be looking around for traffic. There is no guarantee that there will be nothing taking off in front of you or towards you jsut becasue you have not cancelled IFR into an uncontrolled field.
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Yes Scott, and that's the challenge. In this case, I was aware there was a jet trying to depart. He could have departed VFR and picked up his clearance in the air (which is what I did when I left). Could also have been other folks in the area, but there were no transmissions on the CTAF. Guess I just expected the jet folks to be more professional.

The Gulf Stream pilot actually mentioned that he thought the GA guys seemed to do a better job of communicating on CTAF than many of the jet guys. It was his opinion they seemed more used to flying out of uncontrolled fields.

Best,

Dave
 
N793BG
If he's gonna fly like that, he ought to block his number.
SYNFUELS HOLDINGS FINANCE LLC
BIRMINGHAM AL
 
Hah, i wish there was a little computerized cockpit list you could have of tail numbers. The airplane's intercom hears the tail # (assuming it gets it correct), and then searches the database you've created for that #. And you can leave little comments by each tail # like "TOOK OFF IFR INTO MY FACE W/ NO RADIO CALLS!:" or even on a good note, "Very friendly, did a 360 to get behind me for sequencing".

But can you imagine like a year later seeing that plane come up on your list and you get on the radio saying "You remember on August 18th, 2008 when you took off IFR in my face without making any calls?! well I DO! I didnt appreciate it!" They'd have forgotten the whole thing, but you could refresh their memory!

haha, ok maybe you shouldnt make my hypothetical radio complaint, but i still think it'd be a cool database. any uber nerds wanna get on that?
 
Arriving IFR I will cancel in the air once I have the airport in sight and I'm in a position to remain VFR to the runway. Reasoning; it is better to be communiating on the CTAF than the approach frequency at this point. Note approach is monitored because you never know.

Arriving VFR or for local airwork use Flight following if available. Otherwise or in the pattern monitor approach. An inbound IFR flight may not switch to the CTAF and provide an accurate position report in a timely manner. Beside being on a totally different runway.
 
RMCN172RG said:
Arriving IFR I will cancel in the air once I have the airport in sight and I'm in a position to remain VFR to the runway. Reasoning; it is better to be communiating on the CTAF than the approach frequency at this point. Note approach is monitored because you never know.
.
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They way I handle it is that in Comm1 I have App and in Comm 2 I have the CTAF. I have the panel set up that I can monitor both frequencies no matter which radio I am transmitting on and then just switch back and forth between the two. I'll start making CTAF announcement before I get the hand off from App to go to CTAF. The only pitfall is that you have to remain vigilant that you are transmitting on the right frequency.
 
Sometimes being a nice guy ain't worth it. Yesterday we were flying a Lance into KUNV on an IFR plan. We were turned over to CTAF and told to cancel by calling or transmit to NY Center on 118.55. There was a Air Wisconson RJ and a United plane holding short.So as soon as we clear the Runway and I mean as soon as we clear it I call clear on CTAF and go over to Center to let them know were on the ground. As I'm tryng to transmit to NY Center that were on the ground the Air Wisconson guys are transmitting telling them that we are on the ground. I know they wanted to get going but it kind of ticked me off that these guys were trying to make our call for us.
 
AdamZ said:
Sometimes being a nice guy ain't worth it. Yesterday we were flying a Lance into KUNV on an IFR plan. We were turned over to CTAF and told to cancel by calling or transmit to NY Center on 118.55. There was a Air Wisconson RJ and a United plane holding short.So as soon as we clear the Runway and I mean as soon as we clear it I call clear on CTAF and go over to Center to let them know were on the ground. As I'm tryng to transmit to NY Center that were on the ground the Air Wisconson guys are transmitting telling them that we are on the ground. I know they wanted to get going but it kind of ticked me off that these guys were trying to make our call for us.
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More to the point, Adam, unless you cannot get through and you ask for a relay, their notice to Center does not count for squat.
 
AdamZ said:
Sometimes being a nice guy ain't worth it. Yesterday we were flying a Lance into KUNV on an IFR plan. We were turned over to CTAF and told to cancel by calling or transmit to NY Center on 118.55. There was a Air Wisconson RJ and a United plane holding short.So as soon as we clear the Runway and I mean as soon as we clear it I call clear on CTAF and go over to Center to let them know were on the ground. As I'm tryng to transmit to NY Center that were on the ground the Air Wisconson guys are transmitting telling them that we are on the ground. I know they wanted to get going but it kind of ticked me off that these guys were trying to make our call for us.
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I think what's going on Adam, is they are so caught up with getting out of there first, that common courtesy (and some safety) goes out the window. What difference does ten seconds make for them to let you call. If you don't after a slight pause; ask if they can relay for you. We do have checklists, flaps to bring up, lights to turn off, cowl flaps to open, frequencies to change etc. Sorry that happened to you. At least they waited until you were clear of the runway.

Best,

Dave
 
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ntbjounin said:
Hah, i wish there was a little computerized cockpit list you could have of tail numbers. The airplane's intercom hears the tail # (assuming it gets it correct), and then searches the database you've created for that #. And you can leave little comments by each tail # like "TOOK OFF IFR INTO MY FACE W/ NO RADIO CALLS!:" or even on a good note, "Very friendly, did a 360 to get behind me for sequencing".

But can you imagine like a year later seeing that plane come up on your list and you get on the radio saying "You remember on August 18th, 2008 when you took off IFR in my face without making any calls?! well I DO! I didnt appreciate it!" They'd have forgotten the whole thing, but you could refresh their memory!

haha, ok maybe you shouldnt make my hypothetical radio complaint, but i still think it'd be a cool database. any uber nerds wanna get on that?
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Marty, cute idea, but doesn't do much if the offending tail numbers belong to rentals or club planes. Remember, people do stupid things; rarely do planes do stupid things.
 
Dave, I'm glad you got down safely along with the earlier aircraft.

Sadly, I'm afraid this Westwind is going to bite the bullet somewhere along the line. Failing to make calls at a non-towered field even center states is too busy presents too much of an opportunity to forever escape the consequences. It's not the Westwind crew I'm worried about; it's those sharing the pattern with them.
 
In looking back at this, I'll probably file a report.

When he turned to my right, I turned left to avoid him. I continued left while beginning the go-around because the FBO was ahead and I didn't want to pass low over all the equipment and people in that area; so, I made an effective 90 degree left turn and began my go-around. Obviously, the plane doesn't climb well when turning and it took a minute to clean things up. I probably got down to 300 to 400 AGL before I began the climb. Had anything gone wrong, I never could have gotten back to the runway. The more I think about this, the more I need to file something.

Best,

Dave
 
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I know that anytime I've called up for my IFR clearance at an uncontrolled field, via RCO or telephone, the controller asks me which runway I'm planning to depart. My first thought with that is "why did they release somebody into your face, even if you'd cancelled, without telling you about opposite direction traffic departing?" I know they told you another aircraft picked up their clearance, but from your account it doesn't sound like they mentioned anything about the runway the traffic was using.

Perhaps the "departure runway" info doesn't get shared between the controllers... perhaps it should. They could have delayed the release and saved you the head-on situation. Glad you're here to tell us about it.
 
The controller knows which runway the departing traffic is using -- that's essential to the departure clearance he gives. However, once you cancel, you are no longer his concern. That's why I don't cancel until I can see the whites of their eyes.
 
One relevant issue that nobody has mentioned is how a lot of pilots use radios when operating IFR at non-towered airports...when clearance can be obtained on the ground, a LOT of pilots don't monitor the CTAF when obtaining or waiting for a clearance, and thus have absolutely no clue what the local traffic picture is. It's a battle I fight occasionally in the jets, and has occurred with several operators. I've had to hit the brakes more than once as the non-flying pilot to prevent the flying pilot from taxiing onto the runway in front of a landing aircraft because I was monitoring CTAF while obtaining the clearance while the FP wasn't.

I can't imagine that this only happens when I'm in the airplane, and I suspect it's fairly common in the corporate world. I KNOW it's fairly common in the flight training world. I've had this discussion with a few CFII's, too, most of whom admitted that they were only on the center freq prior to pulling onto the runway.

So...along with the bottom line of "be careful inbound", I'd add "be conscientious outbound" and use BOTH of those radios if you've got 'em.

Fly safe!

David
 
thought of this today Dave. was waiting for a Saab 340 to land at Fort Dodge so i could get my release. Heard the Saab call center 'minneapolis mesaba 1234' minneapolis replied with 'understand you are on the ground at fort dodge?' saab comes back with 'yea we'll be on the ground'

so basically, they called airborne and were NOT on the ground. I was waiting on a different runway to take off and had no visibility of the approach end of the saab's runway. center immediately released me for departure, but I delayed a few more seconds to make darn sure that the saab was down and clear before i took off on the intersecting runway.
 
tonycondon said:
thought of this today Dave. was waiting for a Saab 340 to land at Fort Dodge so i could get my release. Heard the Saab call center 'minneapolis mesaba 1234' minneapolis replied with 'understand you are on the ground at fort dodge?' saab comes back with 'yea we'll be on the ground'

so basically, they called airborne and were NOT on the ground. I was waiting on a different runway to take off and had no visibility of the approach end of the saab's runway. center immediately released me for departure, but I delayed a few more seconds to make darn sure that the saab was down and clear before i took off on the intersecting runway.
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All I can say is SCARY!!:hairraise:
 
I wasn't gonna mention "regionals"...that'd just get me onto the "It was a regional airline that started ATITAPA" thing...
 
tonycondon said:
thought of this today Dave. was waiting for a Saab 340 to land at Fort Dodge so i could get my release. Heard the Saab call center 'minneapolis mesaba 1234' minneapolis replied with 'understand you are on the ground at fort dodge?' saab comes back with 'yea we'll be on the ground'

so basically, they called airborne and were NOT on the ground. I was waiting on a different runway to take off and had no visibility of the approach end of the saab's runway. center immediately released me for departure, but I delayed a few more seconds to make darn sure that the saab was down and clear before i took off on the intersecting runway.
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OK you more experienced pilots have me now confused. I do not see this as a problem if both pilots do what they are supposed to do.

1) Cancelling in the air. Allows the release or arrival of other IFR aircraft into the airport area. Waiting until on the ground and worse case shut down to cancel using the cell phone locks the airport for up to 10 minutes or so, not convenient for anybody.

2) After cancelling in the air you are VFR so you better be on and should have been monitoring CTAF so you can fit into the traffic at the airport. Cancelling IFR is not a clearance to land or assurance that you can land blindly.

3) I have not picked up many IFR clearances on the ground prefering to depart VFR and pick it up in the air. This avoids the delay of waiting on the ground for the clearance, and that arrival to land and cancel. But when you receive your IFR clearance that is not a clearance for takeoff it allows you to depart the airport while fitting into the existing traffic.

None of this is scary.

You knew that there is arriving traffic on the intersecting runway. If
you were both VFR in 172's and you could not see the landing traffic would you roll without having an eye on him?
 
RMCN172RG said:
OK you more experienced pilots have me now confused. I do not see this as a problem if both pilots do what they are supposed to do.

1) Cancelling in the air. Allows the release or arrival of other IFR aircraft into the airport area. Waiting until on the ground and worse case shut down to cancel using the cell phone locks the airport for up to 10 minutes or so, not convenient for anybody.

2) After cancelling in the air you are VFR so you better be on and should have been monitoring CTAF so you can fit into the traffic at the airport. Cancelling IFR is not a clearance to land or assurance that you can land blindly.

3) I have not picked up many IFR clearances on the ground prefering to depart VFR and pick it up in the air. This avoids the delay of waiting on the ground for the clearance, and that arrival to land and cancel. But when you receive your IFR clearance that is not a clearance for takeoff it allows you to depart the airport while fitting into the existing traffic.

None of this is scary.

You knew that there is arriving traffic on the intersecting runway. If
you were both VFR in 172's and you could not see the landing traffic would you roll without having an eye on him?
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I agree that canceling once below the cloud layer and in VFR conditions makes sense. At an uncontrolled field you're now one more bugsmasher in the pattern.

Most of my clearances have been via cell phone from Clearance Delivery -- I'm usually in/around/near Class B and the weather is low enough that I'll be IMC before I can talk to Approach.
 
RMCN172RG said:
OK you more experienced pilots have me now confused. I do not see this as a problem if both pilots do what they are supposed to do.

1) Cancelling in the air. Allows the release or arrival of other IFR aircraft into the airport area. Waiting until on the ground and worse case shut down to cancel using the cell phone locks the airport for up to 10 minutes or so, not convenient for anybody.

2) After cancelling in the air you are VFR so you better be on and should have been monitoring CTAF so you can fit into the traffic at the airport. Cancelling IFR is not a clearance to land or assurance that you can land blindly.

3) I have not picked up many IFR clearances on the ground prefering to depart VFR and pick it up in the air. This avoids the delay of waiting on the ground for the clearance, and that arrival to land and cancel. But when you receive your IFR clearance that is not a clearance for takeoff it allows you to depart the airport while fitting into the existing traffic.

None of this is scary.

You knew that there is arriving traffic on the intersecting runway. If
you were both VFR in 172's and you could not see the landing traffic would you roll without having an eye on him?
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The confusion came from the arriving jet which responded incorrectly to the controller's question about being on the ground. So when ATC released Tony they assumed the air was clear and gave him no warning that traffic could potentially still be a conflict. ATC also then did not tell the arriving aircraft that there was another plane taking off. While they both should be listening to CTAF we now have a situation that could lead to a confused situational awareness picture for all the pilots and ATC.

The system depends on all of us to be accurate with our position reports. In this case the inaccurate position could have caused problems. What if the arriving aircraft had gone missed? Tony might be up in the air when that happens and their course could bring them close together?

The situation could have been avoided by the arriving aircraft cancleling like he did but also letting ATC know that he was still airborne.
 
RMCN172RG said:
I do not see this as a problem if both pilots do what they are supposed to do.
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That's true, but in Tony's example, the airplane should not have reported on the ground when they were not. They were still on the IFR flight plan, as I understand it.

As far as canceling and picking up flight plans in the air, we do it all the time out here, but that's only in good weather with good visibility. The airports don't tend to have a lot of traffic either, although the accident at Rock Springs recently seems to explode the big sky theory.
 
RMCN172RG said:
OK you more experienced pilots have me now confused. I do not see this as a problem if both pilots do what they are supposed to do.
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That's the key right there...unfortunately, pilots don't always do what they are supposed to do.

Now, I ask you...is picking up your departure clearance prior to landing something that they were supposed to be doing at that time?
A. I doubt it, and
B. some enterprising FAA inspector could probably violate them for breaking the "sterile cockpit" rule if he really wanted to.

But the bottom line is, at least one of them was not paying attention to what was going on at the airport, and the only answers available now are
A. NEITHER pilot was paying attention to what was going on at the airport, or
B. The two pilots in that airplane ceased to be a crew for the duration of that portion of the flight, decreasing the overall safety of the operation. They were simply two pilots in the same airplane. BTDT, and it ain't good.

So, I'd definitely say Tony was right to exercise additional caution with respect to the arriving traffic.

Yes, canceling in the air is a nice thing to do, but as you said, it's a "convenience" issue, not a "safety" issue, and sometimes those two issues are mutually exclusive.

Fly safe!

David
 
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