Uncontrolled fields--be careful!

[Maxmosbey]

One relevant issue that nobody has mentioned is how a lot of pilots use radios when operating IFR at non-towered airports...when clearance can be obtained on the ground, a LOT of pilots don't monitor the CTAF when obtaining or waiting for a clearance, and thus have absolutely no clue what the local traffic picture is. It's a battle I fight occasionally in the jets, and has occurred with several operators. I've had to hit the brakes more than once as the non-flying pilot to prevent the flying pilot from taxiing onto the runway in front of a landing aircraft because I was monitoring CTAF while obtaining the clearance while the FP wasn't.

I can't imagine that this only happens when I'm in the airplane, and I suspect it's fairly common in the corporate world. I KNOW it's fairly common in the flight training world. I've had this discussion with a few CFII's, too, most of whom admitted that they were only on the center freq prior to pulling onto the runway.

So...along with the bottom line of "be careful inbound", I'd add "be conscientious outbound" and use BOTH of those radios if you've got 'em.

Fly safe!

David

The other day I went flying. The wind was calm, and our calm wind runway is 19. So I taxied out to 19, and I see a King Air sitting down at the other end of the runway at the hold short line. No big deal, we are the sort of airport where people use whatever runway they feel like, so I'm good with that. I go through my run up, and I'm ready to take off, but the King Air was down there first, so I figure he has first dibbies on the runway. I get on CTAF and say something like "Cessna 582 ready for take off on 19, will wait for the King Air on 01 if he is ready." I get nothing. So I sit there for a moment and I wonder if I can get out of there before he pulls on the runway. I don't like to push the odds, so I sit there a little longer. I figured that he was getting an IFR clearance, so I waited a few minutes more, which seemed like ten minutes when you are just sitting there. So I get on the radio and call out again, figuring that if I don't get a response, I'm going to go for it. Just then, no announcement, nothing, the King Air pulls on to the runway and takes off.

I don't know what his problem was, but most Corporate Pilots are real professionals. They do come flying in at light speed, doing straight in approaches from twenty miles out, but at least they talk to us lowly 172 pilots. I even had a Citation call me one day to ask if he was going to interfere with me at the intersection, as he was coming in on 19 and I was on 13, which I thought was very considerate. But every once in a while you get someone who is in their own little world, and those people scare me no matter how many hours the have in their log book. If a pilot is not going to monitor CATF at an uncontrolled airport, at least they could switch over long enough to announce their intentions so that the rest of us could get out of the way.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If a pilot is not going to monitor CATF at an uncontrolled airport, at least they could switch over long enough to announce their intentions so that the rest of us could get out of the way.

True...unfortunately, I think this is a far more common problem than most people realize. Particularly as pilots spend more and more of their time in an IFR environment. We tend to forget that ATC isn't separating us at that point.

And most of the people who "forget about" CTAF aren't even aware they're doing it.

Fly safe!

David

 

[poadeleted20]

I would also like to remind folks that you must be in VMC as defined by 91.155 -- just having the runway in visual sight isn't enough. In most cases, that means being 500 below the lowest deck, and in some (E to the surface) it also means the airport must be reporting 1000-3 or better. Pilots have been violated for canceling IFR with the runway in sight when the AWOS is reporting 900-2.

One point I didn't harp on earlier, but will now, is that David's original post suggested he cancelled before getting below the lowest cloud layer. Even if you can see through it pretty well, cancelling before you get below the lowest layer (even if scattered or few) can lead to the situation he experienced because the arriving and departing aircraft may not be able to see each other even if they're both legal.

All in all, I'd rather have someone slightly inconvenienced than have what happened to David occur.

 

[CJones]

The other day I went flying. The wind was calm, and our calm wind runway is 19. So I taxied out to 19, and I see a King Air sitting down at the other end of the runway at the hold short line. No big deal, we are the sort of airport where people use whatever runway they feel like, so I'm good with that. I go through my run up, and I'm ready to take off, but the King Air was down there first, so I figure he has first dibbies on the runway. I get on CTAF and say something like "Cessna 582 ready for take off on 19, will wait for the King Air on 01 if he is ready." I get nothing. So I sit there for a moment and I wonder if I can get out of there before he pulls on the runway. I don't like to push the odds, so I sit there a little longer. I figured that he was getting an IFR clearance, so I waited a few minutes more, which seemed like ten minutes when you are just sitting there. So I get on the radio and call out again, figuring that if I don't get a response, I'm going to go for it. Just then, no announcement, nothing, the King Air pulls on to the runway and takes off.

I don't know what his problem was, but most Corporate Pilots are real professionals. They do come flying in at light speed, doing straight in approaches from twenty miles out, but at least they talk to us lowly 172 pilots. I even had a Citation call me one day to ask if he was going to interfere with me at the intersection, as he was coming in on 19 and I was on 13, which I thought was very considerate. But every once in a while you get someone who is in their own little world, and those people scare me no matter how many hours the have in their log book. If a pilot is not going to monitor CATF at an uncontrolled airport, at least they could switch over long enough to announce their intentions so that the rest of us could get out of the way.

That's when you click over to 126.0 and say in a very monotone voice "Have you checked your CTAF lately?"

 

[ScottM]

I would also like to remind folks that you must be in VMC as defined by 91.155 -- just having the runway in visual sight isn't enough. In most cases, that means being 500 below the lowest deck, .

Oh really? When did the class G cloud clearance requirements change?

As long as I have 1SM of vis (daytime) and can remain clear of the clouds in G-Airspace less than 1,200' (or 700') AGL I can legally cancel IFR

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Actually Ron, that's why I didn't cancel until I did. It was VFR/VMC from 10,000 down, but there was a scattered layer right on the approach to the runway about 1700 feet and I didn't want to cancel until I was through that (and didn't). I could have canceled higher and gone around that small layer VFR, but since I couldn't see what was behind the layer, didn't want to cancel and wind up with a cloud/visibility issue.

Once through and below that little layer, I canceled, probably about 5 miles out and below 1700 feet somewhere. After getting through that, it was severe clear. It may have been a reason the Westwind Jet was inquiring as to why I didn't cancel. From his perspective, it probably was severe clear. Of course, he could have departed VFR and put me in the same position even if I hadn't canceled.

Tony: good job! If everyone is listening and communicating, it can all be worked out. Canceling in the air is a courtesy. As Ron has so clearly stated, I wouldn't extend that courtesy again unless I was coordinating with the other guy. In true instrument conditions, it can lead to a bust. But, one has to remember, the Westwind could have departed VFR and done the same thing; just not with a clearance.

Best,

Dave

 

[jesse]

1) Cancelling in the air. Allows the release or arrival of other IFR aircraft into the airport area. Waiting until on the ground and worse case shut down to cancel using the cell phone locks the airport for up to 10 minutes or so, not convenient for anybody.

2) After cancelling in the air you are VFR so you better be on and should have been monitoring CTAF so you can fit into the traffic at the airport. Cancelling IFR is not a clearance to land or assurance that you can land blindly.

Keep in mind, that with either of the above, you will be required to fit into the VFR traffic flow as soon as you break out of IMC. Cancelling the plan or having the plan makes no difference. The traffic seperation is up to you.

 

[RMCN172RG]

So, I'd definitely say Tony was right to exercise additional caution with respect to the arriving traffic.

I don't see what Tony did as additional caution. It was the proper way to depart after receiving an IFR clearance on the ground.

Many of the transient IFR aircraft here wait on the apron until cleared then taxi to the runway to depart so they don't block all us little VFR guys.

Now if you are departing in LIFR with a 200 foot ceiling and were not monitoring CTAF but just approach for the incoming traffic I can see the point. However the Saab replied we will be on the ground, not we are.

 

[poadeleted20]

Oh really? When did the class G cloud clearance requirements change?

As long as I have 1SM of vis (daytime) and can remain clear of the clouds in G-Airspace less than 1,200' (or 700') AGL I can legally cancel IFR

I said "in most cases." And in most cases, you'll still be in E-space when you see the runway. Further, there aren't too many airports (if any at all) with SIAP's without E-space to 700 feet. In any event, this is one case where being legal and being safe aren't congruent.

 

[docmirror]

Here's what confuses me. The Westwind knew there was arriving IFR traffic coming, and yet he took off, I guess without ever seeing Dave. I'm guessing he didn't see Dave on final as he started a left turn after takeoff either. Weird.

 

[poadeleted20]

Here's what confuses me. The Westwind knew there was arriving IFR traffic coming, and yet he took off, I guess without ever seeing Dave. I'm guessing he didn't see Dave on final as he started a left turn after takeoff either. Weird.

If the Westwind knew that, the word I have for that begins with an "s," not a "w."

 

[KennyFlys]

Here's what confuses me. The Westwind knew there was arriving IFR traffic coming, and yet he took off, I guess without ever seeing Dave. I'm guessing he didn't see Dave on final as he started a left turn after takeoff either. Weird.

It would seem reasonable to expect the Westwind was told to hold for release. With such an order, it only stands to reason he should be expecting other IFR traffic to consider. If he had not seen such traffic land and roll out at the very least, he should have been asking ATC before departing.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I got some pics onto the computer from that last trip: when I departed Jack Edwards Field (lucky as I was to be able to do that) I climbed up to 16,000 and in the climb, pointed it right between two building cells. This was a fairly stationary system, so I was able to get right up on top of this. Notice the moon in the top left: who knows, if it was a little brighter, maybe we could see where Alice Cramden landed <g>

Best,

Dave