Unauthorized repairs

U

Unregistered

Guest
Just curious how you guys deal with making your own repairs that are not authorized to be performed by a non A&P. If you are perfect and have never made a repair yourself that was not authorized and you want to lecture, save your time.

Let me give an example. My plane was dead the other day and I traced it down to a bad master contactor. If my A&P was on my field, I would have had him replace it. He is not, so I got one from him and replaced it. I have a couple of options. I can have him look over and check the installation and make the appropriate entries, or I can pretend it never happened. The new contactor does not so shiny and new looking that it would be obvious that is was recently replaced. As long as it does not fall off and short out causing a fire, no one would ever know if was replaced.

Generally in life I believe in ask for forgiveness, not permission. When it comes to flying I prefer to follow the rules, but it seems a little silly to take the plane to the shop so they can look at the installation and say it looks good.

Thoughts?
 
Silly or not, getting it signed off keeps everything above board.

Or, buy an E-AB then you don't have to worry about "unauthorized" repairs. My A&P comes by but once a year.
 
I had a slew of problems with my charging system. Admittedly, the initial guess was right by the hillbilly mechanics, the overvoltage protector fried one time when the starter contactor stuck. When they ordered a new one form Zeftronics, it wasn't quite the same in appearance as the original one (though both units were in the JASCO alternator conversion paperwork which was IN THE AIRCRAFT while they were working on it). When I picked it up the first time and examined their work, I turned to the pilot who ferried me out there: "I hope this orange wire isn't important, it's not hooked up."

Suffice it to say that it didn't work. I took it back and again they worked on it. This time the orange wire was hooked up. I flew the plane back home. Next time I flew the alternator won't come on line. ****ed off, and sitting on the ramp at IAD which has precious few light aircraft maintenance options, I got the book out and checked the wiring. It still wasn't right. My wife, while not an engineer, does hold an Advanced Class Radio license (her father was managing editor of Radio-Electronics magazine). She confirmed my diagnosis and I set to rewiring it the way it should be.

"Can you be doing this?" she asks.

"Yeah, if anybody asks, tell them I'm diagnosing a fault in the landing light circuit. If we follow these wires long enough we'll get to the landing light."
 
steingar said:
I think that when you go to sell the thing you'd best fess up or be guilty of fraud.
Click to expand...

"You gonna prove I changed that switch? I ain't touched it, been that way since I bought the piece of **** airplane."
 
Unregistered said:
Just curious how you guys deal with making your own repairs that are not authorized to be performed by a non A&P. If you are perfect and have never made a repair yourself that was not authorized and you want to lecture, save your time.

... My plane was dead the other day and I traced it down to a bad master contactor. If my A&P was on my field, I would have had him replace it. He is not, so I got one from him and replaced it. ...

Generally in life I believe in ask for forgiveness, not permission. When it comes to flying I prefer to follow the rules, but it seems a little silly to take the plane to the shop so they can look at the installation and say it looks good.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Post this in "Maintenance Bay" where you'll get a lot of reinforcement. That's all you want, right? Since you're here though, I'd be curious how you know where to draw the line if it isn't at the rules?

dtuuri
 
flyingron said:
I had a slew of problems with my charging system. Admittedly, the initial guess was right by the hillbilly mechanics, the overvoltage protector fried one time when the starter contactor stuck. When they ordered a new one form Zeftronics, it wasn't quite the same in appearance as the original one (though both units were in the JASCO alternator conversion paperwork which was IN THE AIRCRAFT while they were working on it). When I picked it up the first time and examined their work, I turned to the pilot who ferried me out there: "I hope this orange wire isn't important, it's not hooked up."

Suffice it to say that it didn't work. I took it back and again they worked on it. This time the orange wire was hooked up. I flew the plane back home. Next time I flew the alternator won't come on line. ****ed off, and sitting on the ramp at IAD which has precious few light aircraft maintenance options, I got the book out and checked the wiring. It still wasn't right. My wife, while not an engineer, does hold an Advanced Class Radio license (her father was managing editor of Radio-Electronics magazine). She confirmed my diagnosis and I set to rewiring it the way it should be.

"Can you be doing this?" she asks.

"Yeah, if anybody asks, tell them I'm diagnosing a fault in the landing light circuit. If we follow these wires long enough we'll get to the landing light."
Click to expand...


That is a good point! I was just fixing my landing light. It would not come on before and now it works!
 
You are in a good position right now to do it right. Have your A&P check your work. Don't forget to log the serial number of the part coming out and the serial number of the part going in.

Jim
 
At least you have enough smarts to post as unregistered.
 
Jaybird180 said:
O-M-G
Did hell freeze over???
:lol:
Click to expand...

Why should I or anyone else (other than the FAA) care what someone else does with a private piece of property?:dunno:

Be an adult, if you want to bend the rules or totally subvert them, that's your business, just be prepared to deal with the consequences if that ever raises it's ugly head.
 
Since you posted anonymously, I'm going to assume your name is Jane...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80nW6AOhTs

I agree with Rotor&Wing, yes you can do whatever you want with your airplane, just be prepared to deal with the ramifications of non-compliance if/when it comes to the attention of the FAA. They tend to take a dim view of stuff like this as do most insurance companies.
 
Last edited:
Dead Stick said:
Since you posted anonymously, I'm going to assume your name is Jane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80nW6AOhTs

I agree with Rotor&Wing, yes you can do whatever you want with your airplane, just be prepared to deal with the ramifications of non-compliance if/when it comes to the attention of the FAA. They tend to take a dim view of stuff like this as do many insurance companies.
Click to expand...
Hyperbowl mulch?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Silly or not, getting it signed off keeps everything above board.
Click to expand...
What he said. I work with my A&P/IA mechanic (who conveniently occupies the next T-hangar) and do whatever maintenance he authorizes me to do under his supervision (which includes getting his signature on the maintenance record entry), and assist him on the tasks he does not feel I'm ready to do myself. The result is I save a lot of money on maintenance without compromising safety or legal requirements.

I'm well aware that many people do their own unauthorized repairs and don't log the work, but there are consequences for that if the next IA who does the annual inspection detects them, or you try to sell that plane and the undocumented repairs are noticed on the pre-purchase inspection.

So, to answer your original question, in my experience, the way folks who do his deal with it is they just do it the best they can, don't log the work, and hope nobody ever finds out.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
"You gonna prove I changed that switch? I ain't touched it, been that way since I bought the piece of **** airplane."
Click to expand...
This isn't so much an enforcement issue as a documentation issue, and airplanes with documentation issues are harder to sell. The fact that it's not the factory-original part isn't hard to demonstrate, and the buyer doesn't care who did the work, just that it's undocumented. Sure, if the work was done right and it's a legal part, you can usually get an A&P/IA to do an entry confirming the work was done legally at some unknown date in the past, and that solves the documentation problem for the future, but somebody's going to have to pay that mechanic to do that, and it won't be the buyer (unless you take it off the selling price).
 
If I were stuck in the middle of nowhere with no options, maybe I'd do something I was positive I could fix. I would definitely have it looked over afterwards.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Why should I or anyone else (other than the FAA) care what someone else does with a private piece of property?:dunno:
Click to expand...

I cared because one owner was jeopardizing my ticket. He did quality work, but never told me what he'd done.

I refused to sign off further annuals for him because of that.
 
Norman said:
I cared because one owner was jeopardizing my ticket. He did quality work, but never told me what he'd done.

I refused to sign off further annuals for him because of that.
Click to expand...

Yep, BTDT.

I stopped doing work for anyone else except for a few close friends I could trust.
 
In reality, how could any one prove one way or any other that the owner replaced a part that is not serialized, not logged, and is not looking like it is a substitute?

it is the right part, it is installed correctly, and has been working as it should,

who in the hell cares?

IMHO there isn't 1 inspector in 10,000 that could catch it.
 
dtuuri said:
Post this in "Maintenance Bay" where you'll get a lot of reinforcement. That's all you want, right? Since you're here though, I'd be curious how you know where to draw the line if it isn't at the rules?

dtuuri
Click to expand...

I am confident in myself to not need to post for support. Real
Lily just wanting to see if it was common to make similar repairs and forget about them. Most of the reasonable people seem to say have it inspected, not any downside, so I agree I might as well.

Your question is a fair one that I don't have an answer to. I guess it might depend on the circumstances. Remote airstrip with a problem I was comfortable to fix or rig to get home would be different than a problem I was not comfortable at a field with a mx shop. I am extremely qualified to diagnose and make the repair that I did. Fortunately the shop I use will be happy to inspect and sign off
 
Unregistered said:
Your question is a fair one that I don't have an answer to.
Click to expand...
Yep, it's a philosophical question even licensed mechanics have to ask themselves sometimes. Start relay today, mag timing tomorrow. Where does it stop? I know someone real well, ok, it was my younger brother, who put the wrong number of washers on the pitch adjustment stop of the Beech-Roby prop on his Swift to get a few extra MPH cruise. Nearly killed him on takeoff! He made a better airline captain than he would have made a mechanic.

Often, though I can't think of a good example right now, there's common knowledge a licensed mechanic might have that would render an inexperienced unlicensed mechanic's work unairworthy. Oh yeah, like not using fiber self-locking threads on heated parts, or automotive fasteners and pop rivets from K-mart. My philosophical compass points to doing the work after consulting with the A&P/IA who agreed to sign it off, not before. It's all out of respect for the next eventual owner of the plane.

dtuuri
 
Last edited:
dtuuri said:
Often, though I can't think of a good example right now, there's common knowledge a licensed mechanic might have that would render an inexperienced unlicensed mechanic's work unairworthy.
Click to expand...

One I recall was an owner that found a broken exhaust clamp and replaced it with a similar looking hose clamp.

Problem was, the correct part had a locating pin, and was designed to allow play between the exhaust header and muffler. The tightened hose clamp did not.

Long story short, the exhaust header fractured from the lack of play, exhaust gasses melted fuel lines and then the leaking fuel began to burn. The pilot burned to death.

Apparently small things can lead to fatal consequences.
 
I usually pull up to a shop and ask if I can do a repair there(I carry my own tools). Typically it's no problem, I buy lunch/coffee & donuts/case of beer/pay a few bucks, get a signature and off I go. At home I generally will have an A&P who will provide me a signature on what I do.

Remember, there is no restriction on who can do the work, the restriction comes on who can provide the signature to return it to service.
 
Tom-D said:
In reality, how could any one prove one way or any other that the owner replaced a part that is not serialized, not logged, and is not looking like it is a substitute?
Click to expand...
That would be an issue in an enforcement action, but not in an annual or pre-purchase inspection -- there the only question is whether or not the documentation matches up with the airplane.

it is the right part, it is installed correctly, and has been working as it should,
Click to expand...
That's what the mechanic later has to certify in the records for the airplane to be legal again.

who in the hell cares?
Click to expand...
If you're doing an annual on it, I should hope you do.

IMHO there isn't 1 inspector in 10,000 that could catch it.
Click to expand...
I'm not even an IA, and I've discovered undocumented maintenance/repairs.
 
rbridges said:
If I were stuck in the middle of nowhere with no options, maybe I'd do something I was positive I could fix. I would definitely have it looked over afterwards.
Click to expand...

Sparky Imeson's book had a picture of a guy straightening a prop blade with a 2x4. If it was a choice between another night in bear infested woods or back home I know what I would choose. Henceforth I carry a 2x4.

My most recent plane featured a reworked spinner. Completely illegal, rendering the aircraft as unairworthy. That 'repair' was missed by three different A&Ps, including one associated with a FSDO. It was only when I inquired that a hole made for the repair be stopped drilled that the 4th A&P caught the error. It cost me over $600 to make it right.
 
Richard said:
My most recent plane featured a reworked spinner. Completely illegal, rendering the aircraft as unairworthy. That 'repair' was missed by three different A&Ps, including one associated with a FSDO. It was only when I inquired that a hole made for the repair be stopped drilled that the 4th A&P caught the error. It cost me over $600 to make it right.
Click to expand...
Interesting. What kind of damage was repaired? A dent? I once watched an old man spend an entire day and a half walking around tapping on a dented spinner gently with a hammer, working the dent completely away. It was a spinner off a Super Cub that was damaged when a Baron broke lose from a tug and went careening down the sloped ramp, solo, until it got stopped by the Cub's spinner. The FBO manager didn't want to buy the owner a new one, so called up an old retired mechanic for the job. This mechanic never bothered to get an A&P license. He was happy always letting someone else sign off his work, but really good with his hands. When the spinner was repainted it looked like brand new. The owner was happy. Btw, the tug driver got knocked out by the jackknifing wing of the Baron and went the other way heading straight for a closed hangar door. The same FBO manager witnessed the incident and saved the day by sprinting to the tug and turning the wheel just before the crash. Driver went to the hospital for observation, released later.

Btw, how (and why) do you "stop drill" a hole? :dunno:

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Btw, how (and why) do you "stop drill" a hole? :dunno:
Click to expand...

On a non-circular hole the corners may be drilled to alter the stress field and reduce the likelyhood of crack initiation/propagation. Technique has to be applied when making the hole. The method is effective.

What I've been taught and what I've read says any defect in a spinner has to have an A&P blessing prior to returning to service. To me as a pilot that means that I bring it to the attention of a mechanic prior to flight.
 
Clark1961 said:
On a non-circular hole the corners may be drilled to alter the stress field and reduce the likelyhood of crack initiation/propagation.
Click to expand...
Yes, but since this hole was made intentionally it was probably circular. The question wasn't "What is 'stop-drilling?"

Clark1961 said:
What I've been taught and what I've read says any defect in a spinner has to have an A&P blessing prior to returning to service. To me as a pilot that means that I bring it to the attention of a mechanic prior to flight.
Click to expand...
I'm sure the spinner in my story was signed off properly, it just wasn't economically feasible to have anyone else but the old guy fix it. Btw, chroming of spinners, IIRC, is not considered airworthy, but I bet many mechanics look the other way.

dtuuri
 
Tom-D said:
In reality, how could any one prove one way or any other that the owner replaced a part that is not serialized, not logged, and is not looking like it is a substitute?

it is the right part, it is installed correctly, and has been working as it should,

who in the hell cares?

IMHO there isn't 1 inspector in 10,000 that could catch it.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should read what Cap'n Ron said and take it to heart. An investigation could put you between a rock and a hard place if you signed off the annual after such work.
 
Norman said:
Perhaps you should read what Cap'n Ron said and take it to heart. An investigation could put you between a rock and a hard place if you signed off the annual after such work.
Click to expand...
only if someone loses an eye.....:goofy:
 
dtuuri said:
Yes, but since this hole was made intentionally it was probably circular. The question wasn't "What is 'stop-drilling?"
Click to expand...

You have no reasonable basis to assume the hole was circular and since the poster mentioned stop drilling there is reason to believe they observed a crack.

Furthermore, I didn't explain "stop-drilling." I did explain how a hole could be stop drilled which is the question you asked.
 
Clark1961 said:
You have no reasonable basis to assume the hole was circular and since the poster mentioned stop drilling there is reason to believe they observed a crack.
Click to expand...
I made no such assumptions, that's why I asked--him, not you. Go away.

dtuuri
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top