Unable to stay VFR, ATC refuse pop up IFR clearance.

stratobee

stratobee

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stratobee
What do you do? Is there a procedure. Emergency clearance?
 
stratobee said:
What do you do? Is there a procedure. Emergency clearance?
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I'd say declare an emergency and request a clearance again. You're going to **** some people off though for getting yourself into that emergency!

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me why I'm wrong...
 
You darn right I declare. If you are in flight conditions where VFR is no longer possible and you can't get an IFR clearance, the only thing left is to declare an emergency, and request vectors to the nearest field for landing. I know it seems like you could turn around and go back to VFR behind you, but I've had weather close in behind in a fast moving system and there's no other choice.
 
ChrisK said:
I'd say declare an emergency and request a clearance again. You're going to **** some people off though for getting yourself into that emergency!

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me why I'm wrong...
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I've given ATC the option: "Either give me (what I need), or I can use the E word." Amazing how quick I accommodated after that.
 
EdFred said:
I've given ATC the option: "Either give me (what I need), or I can use the E word." Amazing how quick I accommodated after that.
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excrement? :D
 
If you've notified them that your unable to maintain VFR (VFR rated) it's already considered an Emergency and treated as such on the ATC end. If you're instrument rated and just looking to pick up an Abreviated IFR flight plan, that's something completely different. You could very well get turned down in that case.
 
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I've only been bitched out once by ATC for getting a pop up and that was during IR training when we were doing lots of pop-ups at different airports that day and the controller sounded like she was, how do I put it... you know what I mean.

Other than that, I've never had issues. I'm not going to prefile IFR for a 400 NM trip down south when it's clear the whole entire way except at the endpoint when I might need an approach to get in.
 
You can give me a squawk code or I'll give myself one that starts with a 7.
 
If its looking like you're going to be in IMC soon and you get refused a pop-up clearance, turn toward better weather to give yourself some time, call up FSS on the radio and file an IFR flight plan. Then call back approach or center and activate it.

If you can't do that, you didn't plan your flight very well or weren't paying attention. In that case, fly the plane first and then inform ATC of your screw up. Climb Confess Comply...
 
If it comes to that, yes, tell the controller this is an emergency and that you are going into the goo, and tell them just where you are and where you're going (position, heading, altitude) so they can start moving other planes around. Just remember that if you put yourself in the situation where you are forced to exercise your 91.3(b) emergency authority in order to obtain an IFR clearance in this manner (as opposed to a situation which could not be anticipated), you may be asked to explain yourself to the FSDO afterwards. While this is definitely a situation where you'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, it is far better to exercise the good judgment and foresightedness to avoid painting yourself into that corner, by either:

  • Waiting for your clearance on the ground (rather than launching VFR hoping to get your IFR clearance in the air), or
  • Anticipating the need and making your request early enough that ATC can accommodate you without turning their world upside down, or
  • Turning back/landing before you find yourself trapped by weather in flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
*Anticipating the need and making your request early enough that ATC can accommodate you without turning their world upside down...
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That's really the key. If you can't live without it if they don't give it to you, then you've screwed up.
 
Being a wise guy with ATC never pays off. Be straight, honest, and direct in your transmissions rather than playing word games or giving ultimatums. Most importantly, do the very best you can to give them enough warning of an impending issue that they have the time to help without scrambling their eggs. If you can't do that, then say "emergency" right up front so they know that this truly is an urgency/distress condition requiring prompt assistance, and can exercise their emergency authority per Section 10 of FAA Order 7110.65 to assist effectively and in a timely manner.
 
stratobee said:
What do you do? Is there a procedure. Emergency clearance?
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I do put myself in that situation. Keep in mind you could find yourself in a location/altitude where you are unable to contact ATC on your radio.
 
Clip4 said:
I do put myself in that situation. Keep in mind you could find yourself in a location/altitude where you are unable to contact ATC on your radio.
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I suspect you meant to say "I don't put myself in that situation", for the very reason you mentioned (among others). :yes:
 
dell30rb said:
If its looking like you're going to be in IMC soon and you get refused a pop-up clearance, turn toward better weather to give yourself some time, call up FSS on the radio and file an IFR flight plan. Then call back approach or center and activate it.

If you can't do that, you didn't plan your flight very well or weren't paying attention. In that case, fly the plane first and then inform ATC of your screw up. Climb Confess Comply...
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That's all find and dandy when

1) FSS actually answers the radio. I tried 4 frequencies on 3 VORs and 122.2 and no answer.

and 2) they don't blow the weather forecast by 6000' and 8 miles that was issued just 2 hours prior. You obviously don't do much flying if you haven't run into a badly blown forecast.

Oddly enough it was Chicago Approach of all places that answered my call up.
 
Ron Levy said:
If it comes to that, yes, tell the controller this is an emergency and that you are going into the goo, and tell them just where you are and where you're going (position, heading, altitude) so they can start moving other planes around. Just remember that if you put yourself in the situation where you are forced to exercise your 91.3(b) emergency authority in order to obtain an IFR clearance in this manner (as opposed to a situation which could not be anticipated), you may be asked to explain yourself to the FSDO afterwards. While this is definitely a situation where you'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, it is far better to exercise the good judgment and foresightedness to avoid painting yourself into that corner, by either:

  • Waiting for your clearance on the ground (rather than launching VFR hoping to get your IFR clearance in the air), or
  • Anticipating the need and making your request early enough that ATC can accommodate you without turning their world upside down, or
  • Turning back/landing before you find yourself trapped by weather in flight.
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Going to disagree. When all available information given to me concerning the flight is WRONG, I didn't put myself in any situation.

I was leaving Peoria. Forecast for N IL, N IN, SW MI was 6500BKN-OVC from time of departure for the next 12 hours. All TAFS and METARs showed VFR at the time of departure, enroute and arrival. I leave PIA with 6500 BKN and somewhere south of Kankakee the ceiling starts dropping. It's down to 4500, and I decide it's time to go back to the last airport I passed, get on the ground, file and relaunch. Turn around, and it's a wall of clouds down to the ground. Turn around to my original heading and now that's closed off as well. I had about a 10 mile pocket of VMC but the ceiling kept coming down further and further as I try to radio FSS on 4 different frequencies.

When I get home I check the forecasts. Thy still say 6500BKN to OVC.

Now, how in the hell did I put myself in that situation, when the forecast was blown so badly that BKN-OVC065 becomes OVC001, and still says so after the flight?
 
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steingar said:
You can give me a squawk code or I'll give myself one that starts with a 7.
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You say that like it's a threat. A pilot's declaration of an emergency does not strike fear into the hearts of controllers. It's just another situation that must be dealt with.
 
EdFred said:
Going to disagree. When all available information given to me concerning the flight is WRONG, I didn't put myself in any situation.
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One thing that can get you is snow (and I assume rain). I've had visibility decrease rapidly in snow to where I couldn't maintain VFR and when I turned 180* it was still below minimums. Eventually one will fly out of it but that doesn't change the current status of unable to maintain VFR and conditions not predicted by the area forecast.
 
Clark1961 said:
One thing that can get you is snow (and I assume rain). I've had visibility decrease rapidly in snow to where I couldn't maintain VFR and when I turned 180* it was still below minimums. Eventually one will fly out of it but that doesn't change the current status of unable to maintain VFR and conditions not predicted by the area forecast.
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Luckily I was able to circle in VMC for about 30 minutes while I cycled through frequencies, and finally got some help. But had it gone on much longer it would have been a 121.5/7700 situation.
 
EdFred said:
Going to disagree. When all available information given to me concerning the flight is WRONG, I didn't put myself in any situation.

I was leaving Peoria. Forecast for N IL, N IN, SW MI was 6500BKN-OVC from time of departure for the next 12 hours. All TAFS and METARs showed VFR at the time of departure, enroute and arrival. I leave PIA with 6500 BKN and somewhere south of Kankakee the ceiling starts dropping. It's down to 4500, and I decide it's time to go back to the last airport I passed, get on the ground, file and relaunch. Turn around, and it's a wall of clouds down to the ground. Turn around to my original heading and now that's closed off as well. I had about a 10 mile pocket of VMC but the ceiling kept coming down further and further as I try to radio FSS on 4 different frequencies.

When I get home I check the forecasts. Thy still say 6500BKN to OVC.

Now, how in the hell did I put myself in that situation, when the forecast was blown so badly that BKN-OVC065 becomes OVC001, and still says so after the flight?
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I love it when millennials refuse to take ownership of their own self inflicted problems.

;)
 
EdFred said:
That's all find and dandy when

1) FSS actually answers the radio. I tried 4 frequencies on 3 VORs and 122.2 and no answer.

and 2) they don't blow the weather forecast by 6000' and 8 miles that was issued just 2 hours prior. You obviously don't do much flying if you haven't run into a badly blown forecast.

Oddly enough it was Chicago Approach of all places that answered my call up.
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What he's referring to is right out of the book. The first thing, once it's determined the pilot is qualified, is to ask them to file. That's when the pilot needs to declare if filing isn't feasible. Even if they don't declare and they can't call FSS, ATC might treat it as an emergency anyway.

If the situation isn't an enroute situation, then the odds of approach having the pilot file would be slim. They could easily give an IFR clearance to some pilot who is in the local area and can't get back into their home airport.

They key in all this is not to be afraid to declare regardless of whether or not you had a valid VFR weather forecast during planning or not. Save your butt first and worry about how the feds will look at it later.
 
EdFred said:
That's all find and dandy when

1) FSS actually answers the radio. I tried 4 frequencies on 3 VORs and 122.2 and no answer.

and 2) they don't blow the weather forecast by 6000' and 8 miles that was issued just 2 hours prior. You obviously don't do much flying if you haven't run into a badly blown forecast.

Oddly enough it was Chicago Approach of all places that answered my call up.
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Sure, I get your point. Its sometimes tough to get up with FSS when you're scud running. Radios don't work too well at low altitude. Regardless of how you got in this situation, the solution if you can't get a flight plan filed is still climb, confess, comply.
 
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dell30rb said:
Sure, I get your point. Its sometimes tough to get up with FSS when you're scud running. Radios don't work too well at low altitude.
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3000' agl is scud running? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK!

ATC answered just fine and I was still above MVA/MOROCA
 
JeffDG said:
Fantastic way to make sure a car's waiting for you when you land.
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Another good one. :yes:

"Hi guys. What's with the guns? Hey - can I hop a ride to the Hampton inn?"
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm not going to prefile IFR for a 400 NM trip down south when it's clear the whole entire way except at the endpoint when I might need an approach to get in.
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Why not? That's how I go to the beach, and my destination there [like my home field] has no approaches. The only problem I've ever had was getting vectored around an MOA south of Raleigh, because the F-15's were out when I got there. No thanks, I'd rather not fly through . . .
 
EdFred said:
Going to disagree. When all available information given to me concerning the flight is WRONG, I didn't put myself in any situation.

I was leaving Peoria. Forecast for N IL, N IN, SW MI was 6500BKN-OVC from time of departure for the next 12 hours. All TAFS and METARs showed VFR at the time of departure, enroute and arrival. I leave PIA with 6500 BKN and somewhere south of Kankakee the ceiling starts dropping. It's down to 4500, and I decide it's time to go back to the last airport I passed, get on the ground, file and relaunch. Turn around, and it's a wall of clouds down to the ground. Turn around to my original heading and now that's closed off as well. I had about a 10 mile pocket of VMC but the ceiling kept coming down further and further as I try to radio FSS on 4 different frequencies.

When I get home I check the forecasts. Thy still say 6500BKN to OVC.

Now, how in the hell did I put myself in that situation, when the forecast was blown so badly that BKN-OVC065 becomes OVC001, and still says so after the flight?
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What were the surface winds, temp/dew spread, and vis when you took off?
 
I appreciated ATC giving me a pop up IFR clearance the other day so that I could fly into Venice FL and eat at Sharkeys. It was unusual to have fog later in the day, like 2 PM but that was the situation.
 
Clip4 said:
What were the surface winds, temp/dew spread, and vis when you took off?
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Don't remember. But it didn't matter, because it was unforecasted crap that blew in off of Lake Michigan. I was an hour into a two hour flight when it went south. Peoria was probably still fine since it was well SW of the Lake.
 
EdFred said:
Don't remember. But it didn't matter, because it was unforecasted crap that blew in off of Lake Michigan. I was an hour into a two hour flight when it went south. Peoria was probably still fine since it was well SW of the Lake.
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Cure for unforecast IMC: Move to West Texas:yesnod:

Your "blown" forecast now will be winds will remain calm the next 12-24 hours .... then once airborne "where'd this 40G50 come from?":eek:
 
EdFred said:
Going to disagree. When all available information given to me concerning the flight is WRONG, I didn't put myself in any situation.
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I said "if you put yourself in that situation." If all available information concerning the flight was wrong, then you didn't put yourself in that situation, someone else put you there.

That said, I can't remember a single time in 10,000 hours of flying over more than 40 years when all available information concerning the flight was so wrong that despite my best judgment and prudent decisions, I found myself trapped by weather and unable to get a clearance, but perhaps I'm just luckier than you.
 
Ron Levy said:
I said "if you put yourself in that situation." If all available information concerning the flight was wrong, then you didn't put yourself in that situation, someone else put you there.

That said, I can't remember a single time in 10,000 hours of flying over more than 40 years when all available information concerning the flight was so wrong that despite my best judgment and prudent decisions, I found myself trapped by weather and unable to get a clearance, but perhaps I'm just luckier than you.
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With that big lake to the west of us, unless there's a high dominating the area, the forecasts are rarely usable. Hence my coinage of the term pastcasts a few years ago. Probably half my flights the forecasts 2-4 hours out are wrong.
 
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