How is not being able to fulfill a mandated due to not being funded an matter of the FAA "ignoring Congress"?
"We hear ya, cut a check and we'll be right on it."
Uh oh, here we go again (Sleep Apena)
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How is not being able to fulfill a mandated due to not being funded an matter of the FAA "ignoring Congress"?
"We hear ya, cut a check and we'll be right on it."
denverpilot
Tied Down
How is not being able to fulfill a mandated due to not being funded an matter of the FAA "ignoring Congress"?
Proof that FAA really doesn't have to give a damn what Congress wants. There's money in the budget (even if earmarked for something else) that could be used to meet the mandate and flip a different sort of bird at Congress than the current one. Tick off Congress and pull the money from the ADS-B kitty. It'll always be refilled. There is an unlimited supply of funds on big loans for that one, as long as at least one congress critter can get a guarantee the equipment will be purchased from his or her district.
FAA gets to choose which middle finger to hold up, basically. As long as they wrap themselves in the warm glow of "safety" they can literally do whatever they like. If Congress gets uppity they can always count on Scary Mary (without even being asked or wanted) and CNN to fix it for them.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
The whores on the hill will do anything to maintain their lips on the teat of the 'public'. If the public likes added medical requirements for Ga pilots, then liberty be damned, there will-be-something-done. If the 'public' wants GA shut down with all airspace under positive control, then eventually that will be done, and you can just go sit in a corner and whine about your freedoms.
Look, the train is on the rails, and it's got a head of steam. ADS-B is the biggest airspace grab in history by far, and it's already something that you'all just assume you can do nothing about it. Sure, big brother needs to know who is in the air, where they start, where they go, how high and how long they fly, etc. If it's not something that the 'public' does like drive a car, well then lets shut it down! You don't NEED to be in the air, flying your own private plane, going where you want without asking permission. Oh hell no, only car drivers like me are permitted, all others in planes, well you just have to give up your liberty. It's for the children!
What a sad, sad state of affairs that everyone now takes this stuff for granted. Sad in so many ways.
Look, the train is on the rails, and it's got a head of steam. ADS-B is the biggest airspace grab in history by far, and it's already something that you'all just assume you can do nothing about it. Sure, big brother needs to know who is in the air, where they start, where they go, how high and how long they fly, etc. If it's not something that the 'public' does like drive a car, well then lets shut it down! You don't NEED to be in the air, flying your own private plane, going where you want without asking permission. Oh hell no, only car drivers like me are permitted, all others in planes, well you just have to give up your liberty. It's for the children!
What a sad, sad state of affairs that everyone now takes this stuff for granted. Sad in so many ways.
Taking money that was appropriated for one purpose, and using it for another purpose, without specific authorization from Congress, would violate Article I Section 9 of the Constitution:
"No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law;..."
When money was shifted between accounts to keep control towers open in 2013, it was a result of legislation from Congress authorizing the transfers.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/officials-say-threatened-faa-towers-remain-open
denverpilot
Tied Down
There seem to be two different groups Doc.
One group that truly seems frightened by anyone around them or themselves having freedom to choose things and/or make inevitable mistakes associated with same...
And a much more evil group that sees their chance to rule over all the others, based in some very deep and ugly sociopathic behaviors...
The freaky part is, they compliment each other. The scared ones who don't really want their freedom
or their neighbor's freedoms vote for the sociopaths to make sure of it.
It's worse than sad. It's horribly destructive and almost inhuman in its extremely effective ability to generate ill will toward the neighbors and only trust in the demagogues lying on the TV.
We call it a "nanny state" but it's way worse than that. More like the "lock the children in the basement" state, for their own protection of course.
The apnea thing is just a well intentioned but flawed extension of it. Yes there are people who are so tired from it they're a danger to themselves and others. How many, and what's the real risk level and threat to society is the flip side of that coin.
Can't get a straight answer on that one.
Anyone here NOT have a grandparent or parent who snored? Ever? How many died of being too sleepy? How many harmed others when they died because of sleepiness?
We wage war on silly crap like this because there's too many bored bureaucrats, looking way too hard for marginal gains in safety without any mandate to weigh the gain against the costs.
How many lives is any of this really going to save?
What percentage of aircraft deaths per year are proven directly tied to apnea?
If those questions can't be answered honestly and forthrightly, what problem is being solved?
One group that truly seems frightened by anyone around them or themselves having freedom to choose things and/or make inevitable mistakes associated with same...
And a much more evil group that sees their chance to rule over all the others, based in some very deep and ugly sociopathic behaviors...
The freaky part is, they compliment each other. The scared ones who don't really want their freedom
or their neighbor's freedoms vote for the sociopaths to make sure of it.
It's worse than sad. It's horribly destructive and almost inhuman in its extremely effective ability to generate ill will toward the neighbors and only trust in the demagogues lying on the TV.
We call it a "nanny state" but it's way worse than that. More like the "lock the children in the basement" state, for their own protection of course.
The apnea thing is just a well intentioned but flawed extension of it. Yes there are people who are so tired from it they're a danger to themselves and others. How many, and what's the real risk level and threat to society is the flip side of that coin.
Can't get a straight answer on that one.
Anyone here NOT have a grandparent or parent who snored? Ever? How many died of being too sleepy? How many harmed others when they died because of sleepiness?
We wage war on silly crap like this because there's too many bored bureaucrats, looking way too hard for marginal gains in safety without any mandate to weigh the gain against the costs.
How many lives is any of this really going to save?
What percentage of aircraft deaths per year are proven directly tied to apnea?
If those questions can't be answered honestly and forthrightly, what problem is being solved?
denverpilot
Tied Down
Like I said. Who'd stop them? Ooh maybe the Administrator would lose his job. Whoop dee doo. I doubt any Administrator in my lifetime didn't go in knowing that job has a history of being a revolving door.
If they do something and Congress doesn't like it, they'll just swing public opinion with FUD about safety. How do you think ADS-B got funded in the first place? There's a MASSIVE PR engine behind that silly thing. Massive.
We've all seen the PR spin for it on CNN and elsewhere. It's going to make us all safer and ease air traffic congestion nationwide, don't you know? Haven't you heard? LOL. Right.
FAA is in the catbird seat when they want something. Congress would be run over by a wave of public sentiment the size of a Mack truck of people screaming "Saaaaafety! Saaaafety!" if they defunded anything FAA really wanted to do. Only take 'em about a month of feeding "leaks" about the budget cuts creating a safety problem to CNN.
DFH65
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DFH65
Cars are next but it will be along the lines of taxing by the mile. Oh that Prius of yours is nice but it doesn't burn that much gas and we are not getting the tax revenue from that so we are going to put this little black box in everyone's cars and you will all have to pay by the mile. Yeah well it does track where you go and when you were where but we don't collect that information(yet). Even if we did someone that has nothing to hide wouldn't care. Why do you ask? Do you have something to hide Mr. citizen? Let me see your papers.
Trust me they will also raise taxes on gas with the prices so low right now they figure nobody would notice or care if we add 10 or 15% more tax to it.
I love how the government demonizes big oil who takes about a 5% profit on a gallon of gas when the taxes on that same gallon far exceed the profit (sometimes by 10 or more times) made by the company that did all the work.
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ClimbnSink
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Greg
MA has already floated the car transponder idea. Coming soon to a fascist ****-hole near you.
So which funded mandate would you misappropriate funds from to assure you get your picture on your pilots license? You think your pic on a license is worth more than ADS-B? Or, how about they just charge $125 for the card like I get nailed for my TWIC card every 5 years? I think that's the best way to deal with that card, just charge for them like every other other office does. There is nothing much preventing that.
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Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Here's what avweb says about it (not much):
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/New-Sleep-Apnea-Rules-March-2223446-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/New-Sleep-Apnea-Rules-March-2223446-1.html
bflynn
Final Approach
From the things I've read, the actual policy is going to be much more benign than what everyone is talking about. You'll have to either show or have the symptoms before it becomes an issue.
The real point is that with medical, as soon as there's a symptom that is indicative of a disqualifying condition, you have to prove that it isn't that condition. So, when the AME asks "do you ever wake up in the morning with a sore throat", an answer of yes indicates that maybe you sleep in a cold room or maybe you have OSA. So, it's off for testing sometime in the next 90 days to find out.
Its the world of aviation medicine and every single one of you will either quit flying or face this one day.
The real point is that with medical, as soon as there's a symptom that is indicative of a disqualifying condition, you have to prove that it isn't that condition. So, when the AME asks "do you ever wake up in the morning with a sore throat", an answer of yes indicates that maybe you sleep in a cold room or maybe you have OSA. So, it's off for testing sometime in the next 90 days to find out.
Its the world of aviation medicine and every single one of you will either quit flying or face this one day.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Neither is worth it. But if we are comparing ADS-B to photo ID and no other choices, absolutely. No doubt about it.
As far as the card price, you think they won't do that anyway even if the photo system was funded??? LOL. Hilarious. The funding would pay for the *system* not the cards. ROFLMAO.
Repeat after me: Taxes don't even cover the interest on the loans... Taxes don't even cover the interest on the loans... Taxes don't even cover the interest on the loans...
Nice theory, but what ACTUALLY HAPPENED in the tower case was that they weren't willing to shift money from other accounts until Congress specifically authorized it.
denverpilot
Tied Down
So? What does that have to do with my assertion?
They can do as they please, as long as they're ready to **** off a congress critter or three and fire up the PR department and spin.
Who's going to stop it? Can't fire them all.
Didn't say they have the cojones to do it. That's a different evaluation altogether.
I don't think either of us knows what the penalty would be, if any. All I have to go on is their actual behavior, which I consider a more reliable indicator than theorizing by my fellow non-attorneys.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
It took me 18 months because I had an old machine that did not provide the readings that the flight surgeons would accept. So, it took a lot of letter writing from my physicians and my AME to try and get them to accept our explanation. Ultimately, it was fruitless so I had to get a new machine and wait another 90 days to get the readings (at least 6 hours a night of therapy) then I had to visit my sleep doc to verify the results and send off the letter to the FAA. 6 weeks later, I got my medical.
As for AMEs providing a special issuance for OSA, I don't think they can since it's a disqualifying condition. However, now that my medical has been issued (I'm under 40) I have to visit my AME every year and he has to verify that I'm keeping up with my therapy. So, my medical is valid for 5 years but the special issuance is valid for one year.
DFH65
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DFH65
Seems to me they really still have no way to verify. You provide the report and there is any number of ways to fudge that. Your doctor sees you once a year what does he know about you appearing well rested or not?
Once you get used to the machine it isn't bad at least it wasn't for me. I got used to it quickly and when I turned in my report for last year (my first SI renewal) I had a 96% compliance rate with an AHI of 1.1 with over a year of data.
I know I sleep better with it than without it so even when I go to hunting camp where there is no electric I take a battery. This thing even using the inverter last for 2 days (without the humidifier) and might make it 3. With the added benefit that I can charge my phone and if I ever need a jump start or an air compressor I have that too.
Once you get used to the machine it isn't bad at least it wasn't for me. I got used to it quickly and when I turned in my report for last year (my first SI renewal) I had a 96% compliance rate with an AHI of 1.1 with over a year of data.
I know I sleep better with it than without it so even when I go to hunting camp where there is no electric I take a battery. This thing even using the inverter last for 2 days (without the humidifier) and might make it 3. With the added benefit that I can charge my phone and if I ever need a jump start or an air compressor I have that too.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ahh - yeah, I retired my first CPAP because it wouldn't record. But I did have the SI for several years (5-6 maybe?) before FAA got picky about wanting a report from the machine - that's a relatively new requirement.
Technically, your SI is valid for 6 years (if it's anything like mine). But yes, there is an annual requirement for a status report in order to keep it current.
Yes - the AME can't normally issue the SI, that can only come from OKC, but he can renew it for you each year. Some AMEs are greater than others and might be able to sweet talk OKC into letting them issue over the phone.
After year 6, you'll be getting a new SI. When my first 6 yrs was up, it got...interesting. The SI was good until the end of October. I saw my AME for my class 3 somewhere in early Oct. Because he couldn't re-issue the SI, he could do my exam but had to let OKC finish. I am pretty sure I remember getting the new SI in the mail mid-Nov. My medical and SI was still valid until the end of Oct, so I was grounded for about 2 weeks in early Nov. Some AMEs are better than others at speeding up the process.
I was 2 years into my current SI when they sent me a new one. The new one is good for another 6 years, but the difference is the new one now states the requirement for a report from the CPAP. My other one did not.
DFH65
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DFH65
Why does it even have to be an SI. Make it like blood pressure. If the AME and/or your personal doc says you are compliant with treatment why should the FAA do anything further. At some point they are taking someones word for it anyway.
I hope the medical eventually goes away (will still use CPAP) but I am doubtful that will ever happen.
I hope the medical eventually goes away (will still use CPAP) but I am doubtful that will ever happen.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't have hypertension, so I wasn't familiar with the FAA medical rules. I just looked at them:
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/specialissuance/hypertension/
They seem pretty common sense. FAA gets the info it needs to show due diligence, and the pilot gets his blood pressure under control. All without an SI.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
My issue now, is I'm coming up on my yearly renewal and I have a newborn at home. There's no WAY I'm getting 6 hours of sleep. Matthew, I'll PM you since it seems you have a good AME.
cirrusmx
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campoalavista
i dont see a problem with requiring treatment of sleep apnea. it is beneficial to the pilot, better health etc. however, the bureacracy and response times to be get the si is ridiculous on a condition that the treatment and outcomes are almost instantaneous and easy to attain.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Got it, and reponded.
There is some question about compliance and the definition. I know they say 6hrs, but they don't say a percentage of nights. I think 75% might be it. I've had kids, too, and know how it goes. Do the best you can and you'll have 90 days of averages to work with.
I'll PM some more info - I got my PM before I saw this post.
I can't figure out why the FAA is so obsessed with verifying "compliance." People who use CAP machines say they love the results, so what makes the FAA think there are going to be lots of people who say they are getting treatment but aren't? Do they take this approach with other diseases? 
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
This was exactly my situation and my AME had me my medical prior to my first solo... I want to say it wasn't more than a week and a half. However my understanding is that it varies.
My second time around he just issued the medical to me on the spot. But for the first time, he deferred it. I'm not sure if that's a requirement, or it was just caution on his part. Either way it ended up ok.
And for Greg - we OSA people aren't all fatties. I'm 5'8" 180# with a fairly muscular build, nowhere near a lard-azz:wink2:
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I can't figure out why the FAA is so obsessed with verifying "compliance." People who use CAP machines say they love the results, so what makes the FAA think there are going to be lots of people who say they are getting treatment but aren't? Do they take this approach with other diseases?
Cause they are bored and want something else to regulate.
I wouldn't discontinue my CPAP use if the FAA's requirement to use it went away. I used it prior to initiating primary training and I'd use it if I quit flying.
What the geniuses at the FAA do not understand, is that I don't want to fall asleep in the air anymore than they want me to. But, as said, they need to regulate something, anything.
But hey thanks FAA, I'm glad to pay extra once a year(not only to the AME, but the sleep doctor to perform the download and printout of my CPAP useage) for you to be sure I won't kill myself. Oh by the way, the DOT does the same thing. My CDL physical is now yearly as well. Shouldn't have told the doc
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
The first-time issue comes from OKC, after that the AME can renew in the office. I first suspected I had OSA when I was a runner, 6' and 170-ish. Definitely not a fattie...then.
Cause they are bored and want something else to regulate.
I wouldn't discontinue my CPAP use if the FAA's requirement to use it went away. I used it prior to initiating primary training and I'd use it if I quit flying.
What the geniuses at the FAA do not understand, is that I don't want to fall asleep in the air anymore than they want me to. But, as said, they need to regulate something, anything.
But hey thanks FAA, I'm glad to pay extra once a year(not only to the AME, but the sleep doctor to perform the download and printout of my CPAP useage) for you to be sure I won't kill myself. Oh by the way, the DOT does the same thing. My CDL physical is now yearly as well. Shouldn't have told the doc
I schedule an annual physical with my regular doc about 6 weeks before I need to renew or get a medical. I get a good checkup, my insurance pays most of it, and I get my status report at the same time. My machine allows me to generate my own report, so that is one less hassle.
Many years ago, at my first sleep study, I did an MWT (not normally required anymore by FAA ). The tech asked me, "Pilot, controller, or truck driver?" KC Center is just around the corner, so we have a lot of controllers in town. He said truckers needed an annual test. I was curious about the MWT (they put you in a quiet room, turn down the lights, recline you back in a bed, and then you have to stay awake for the next 20-30 minutes. This gets repeated 4 or 5 times over the next 8 hours.) I asked the tech how many fails he had seen. He said in all the years he'd done it, he had seen 2 fails, both truckers.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I've not done that test, but done repeatedly, I assume a percentage would fall asleep, truck driver or not... Although I suppose that test most closely replicates a truck driver's environment. I am not a truck driver, but my job requires me to have a CDL for the occasional time I need to drive a commercial vehicle on the road. Otherwise I would let it lapse.
gkainz
Final Approach
I can't figure out why the FAA is so obsessed with verifying "compliance." People who use CAP machines say they love the results, so what makes the FAA think there are going to be lots of people who say they are getting treatment but aren't? Do they take this approach with other diseases?
There are a lot of folks on CPAP or apnea forums that complain that they just can't get used their CPAP and quit using them. I'm one of those hoseheads who are completely compliant because the effects of non-compliance are horrible. Had a power outage 2 nights in a row one time without battery backup.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
do they all BMI's greater than 35?