Uh oh, here we go again (Sleep Apena)

denverpilot said:
We've also had folks report that "the process" took 18 months. And they gave you a generous 3 months to deal with it. LOL. Perhaps they should re-word it, "Fly until we get around to approving or denying your Special Issuance" and put the onus on themselves to get it in gear. Problem is, I know that won't lead to better work, it'd just lead to more denials to shuffle the paperwork faster.

That's by far the majority of guys like Bruce's real value. He knows what mountain of paperwork and all the special things to say to get that mountain of paper off of a desk and filed away in the bureaucratic morass with the appropriate check boxes ticked.

I know someone who took a DVD (it wouldn't fit on a 650 MB CD) worth of data and a three inch high stack of papers and letters to Bruce, as requested because he knew what to ask for, and was issued same day, in office, for a worse medical condition. One that usually takes a year or so of back and forth.

The question isn't whether he would qualify. It's how long it would take him to gather the stupid paper and digital data if asked for it one piece at a time.

Anyway. Three months won't be enough unless you're hiring someone as organized or interested as Bruce. Many AMEs simply aren't that interested / don't have the time for the hoops jumping and dump it all back on the patient to figure out in drips and drabs with letters back and forth from OKC for months and months.
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Basically that is exactly what they said. The way I read that you have 90 days to get your end of the process in, in the mean time you hold a normal medical until further notice. When they get around to getting the SI paperwork caught up, you get issued the SI, until then you're still good to fly. It looks like they are going to take anything for data including AME opinion who will likely defer to an automated machine report. If you get treated, you are automatic with proof of treatment.

I'm semi stunned actually at the wording and approach. If you really just want to get the result, this is the path that will provide the least resistance, simultaneously providing the greatest benefit. They aren't really going to harm anyone, and they will end up helping a lot of people.
 
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It's really hard to see a more painless and productive way to go about this. The real way to make this really painless is if you have known OSA symptoms in your snoring, go get evaluated and treated, you will feel better for it. Next time you go get your medical bring in a couple strips from your machine as proof of treatment and the SI is automatic, boom done. Maintain treatment automatically maintains SI.

Sleep Apnea is a major issue in the machine operating industry. People with sleep apnea are not on top of their game and create casualties.
 
As much as I don't like the idea of the AME becoming a diagnostician, this is not a bad compromise. If the AME thinks there is something to look into (and I don't know what triggers that), he'll tell you to get it checked out and it looks like you have 90 days to do that. If your doc says it's not OSA, the AME/FAA is satisfied. If your doc finds something, you get it treated, show FAA it's under control, and you get your SI. From the wording, it sounds like the intention is FAA will let you continue to fly, rather than ground you like the present system.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Imsafe doesn't work with osa. They don't know they are tired. Judgment on judgment is impaired.
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I think it is important to break it down further into tired vs. fatigued.

People know that they are tired and, while tired, can still safely operate machinery, vehicles, etc.

It is very difficult, even for a healthy person, to tell when you go beyond tired into fatigued which is where your performance is negatively affected.

A person living with untreated OSA lives in a constant state of fatigue. Fatigued has become "normal" to them. They are unaware that they are fatigued.
 
It doesn't take 18 months. There is big money in sleep apnea and the hospitals know it. When I went through the process it took a few weeks start to finish.

The issue I see is the cost with most people now having high deductible plans this is several grand and the machine is another grand. So if you got it figure on 3K or more if your insurance wont pay for it.
 
DFH65 said:
It doesn't take 18 months. There is big money in sleep apnea and the hospitals know it. When I went through the process it took a few weeks start to finish.

The issue I see is the cost with most people now having high deductible plans this is several grand and the machine is another grand. So if you got it figure on 3K or more if your insurance wont pay for it.
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Yeah. $$$ will be a problem.
 
Henning said:
Basically that is exactly what they said. The way I read that you have 90 days to get your end of the process in, in the mean time you hold a normal medical until further notice. When they get around to getting the SI paperwork caught up, you get issued the SI, until then you're still good to fly. It looks like they are going to take anything for data including AME opinion who will likely defer to an automated machine report. If you get treated, you are automatic with proof of treatment.



I'm semi stunned actually at the wording and approach. If you really just want to get the result, this is the path that will provide the least resistance, simultaneously providing the greatest benefit. They aren't really going to harm anyone, and they will end up helping a lot of people.
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Apply what you know they do to that. You'll send something at week two if you're on the ball with your doc essentially on call and don't have life pressing matters. They'll send back that they need more data a month after that. You'll schedule at a busy clinic and send them something back two weeks later. Now you're two months in. And that's if your on top of it. If they ask for a third go around you'll fall outside the 90 days.

That's how it'll work out in the real world. You won't make it through the process to file in 90 days because they'll keep asking for stuff.

Unless you use an AME who both knows the process cold and has direct phone numbers to friends with the paperwork on their desk.

This is blatantly obvious if real folks have stated that the process took 18 months. Even if they were slacking off the whole time, there's no way a real world 18 month timeline that already exists today, magically gets compressed to 3, when the number of mandatory applications skyrockets.

You won't complete the application in time without insider assistance and know-how, and even then, if applications even double (which is probably orders of magnitude less than what will really happen), the necessary items in the Gantt chart that documents the current 18 month process some have described happened to them, will take roughly twice as long.

Here's the proof/key question... Anyone here with a current SI get all the paperwork done in 90 days?
 
DFH65 said:
It doesn't take 18 months. There is big money in sleep apnea and the hospitals know it. When I went through the process it took a few weeks start to finish.



The issue I see is the cost with most people now having high deductible plans this is several grand and the machine is another grand. So if you got it figure on 3K or more if your insurance wont pay for it.
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That's just the hospital's part of the process. Others here have posted their real world wait times for the actual SI to arrive. What they haven't posted is how long the initial application process took.

That's the process with a "gotcha" in the way that timeline is written. You have 90 days.
 
Easier to just go sport pilot or lose the weight. Or buy a boat.
 
denverpilot said:
Apply what you know they do to that. You'll send something at week two if you're on the ball with your doc essentially on call and don't have life pressing matters. They'll send back that they need more data a month after that. You'll schedule at a busy clinic and send them something back two weeks later. Now you're two months in. And that's if your on top of it. If they ask for a third go around you'll fall outside the 90 days.

That's how it'll work out in the real world. You won't make it through the process to file in 90 days because they'll keep asking for stuff.

Unless you use an AME who both knows the process cold and has direct phone numbers to friends with the paperwork on their desk.

This is blatantly obvious if real folks have stated that the process took 18 months. Even if they were slacking off the whole time, there's no way a real world 18 month timeline that already exists today, magically gets compressed to 3, when the number of mandatory applications skyrockets.

You won't complete the application in time without insider assistance and know-how, and even then, if applications even double (which is probably orders of magnitude less than what will really happen), the necessary items in the Gantt chart that documents the current 18 month process some have described happened to them, will take roughly twice as long.

Here's the proof/key question... Anyone here with a current SI get all the paperwork done in 90 days?
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Or, you deal with it BEFORE you see the AME by talking with your own doc, so that when you DO see the AME and hand him your compliance report, you just wait for your SI to clear and keep flying. Your scenario assumes the AME initiates the OSA testing - and that will be a nasty surprise.

My SI took 4 months. I don't know what the turnaround is these days, and I haven't heard the details on an 18 month wait for an OSA SI.
 
Where does it say they expect the process completed in 90 day? Why do you suspect they are trying to play games when they are issuing unrestricted medicals when agreeing to the process? Paranoia is heavy here. They are trying to get a serious issue dealt with.
 
As somebody who was diagnosed with OSA, and on CPAP therapy, and doing absolutely fine...

Does this mean if/when I go for my third-class medical I'm going to be waiting for 18 months (per an earlier poster) to get it issued?

I thought SIs could be done by certain AMEs once they'd received some documentation from the sleep doctor? Maybe I'm not understanding the process since I haven't started it yet...
 
LoneAspen said:
As somebody who was diagnosed with OSA, and on CPAP therapy, and doing absolutely fine...

Does this mean if/when I go for my third-class medical I'm going to be waiting for 18 months (per an earlier poster) to get it issued?

I thought SIs could be done by certain AMEs once they'd received some documentation from the sleep doctor? Maybe I'm not understanding the process since I haven't started it yet...
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No, what this means is that at your next medical, you bring in your proof of treatment, the AME will issue you a standard Medical at that point and the FAA will send you a follow on SI when they get to it. It will not cost you 10 minutes of ime in the air.
 
Henning said:
No, what this means is that at your next medical, you bring in your proof of treatment, the AME will issue you a standard Medical at that point and the FAA will send you a follow on SI when they get to it. It will not cost you 10 minutes of ime in the air.
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I don't have a medical, or PPL, yet. I haven't started training yet.

This would be the first time I would ever have applied for one. Thinking about doing it in the next few months and getting started training.
 
LoneAspen said:
As somebody who was diagnosed with OSA, and on CPAP therapy, and doing absolutely fine...

Does this mean if/when I go for my third-class medical I'm going to be waiting for 18 months (per an earlier poster) to get it issued?

I thought SIs could be done by certain AMEs once they'd received some documentation from the sleep doctor? Maybe I'm not understanding the process since I haven't started it yet...
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No. Henning explained the new system, or as much as we understand it so far.

Under the current system, and probably the new system, too: If you already have a diagnosis, and you are treating it, and it is under control, and you have reports from your doctor and the machine that support the treatment being effective, then you take all that to your AME. If you have a hotshot AME who knows the system and has connections to Oklahoma City, the AME might be able to convince the FAA docs to issue an SI while you wait. Most AMEs will send the info to OKCand then you jsve to wait by yoir mail box. The current turn around time seems to be measured in weeks (3-4). My understanding is the SI can only be issued by OKC.

Under the curtent system you would be without a medical, groundee until the SI comes through. Under the new system you will be allowed to fly while you wait.
 
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LoneAspen said:
I don't have a medical, or PPL, yet. I haven't started training yet.

This would be the first time I would ever have applied for one. Thinking about doing it in the next few months and getting started training.
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OK. That's the way I did it, too.
 
Sounds like the best thing for me to do would be to contact Dr. Bruce when I get ready to start the process, and maybe use him as my AME, even though it would mean traveling to the midwest from California.

It would be worth it to me if it meant saving time and jumping through God knows how many hoops with the FAA.
 
LoneAspen said:
Sounds like the best thing for me to do would be to contact Dr. Bruce when I get ready to start the process, and maybe use him as my AME, even though it would mean traveling to the midwest from California.

It would be worth it to me if it meant saving time and jumping through God knows how many hoops with the FAA.
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You can do that. Or you can call a local AME and ask what he needs and how he will help push you through the system. You won't need your medical until you solo, so don't wait too long, but it isn't something you have to do immediately. I did my ground school while I waited - back then the wait was 4 months, now it's weeks.
 
Henning said:
Where does it say they expect the process completed in 90 day? Why do you suspect they are trying to play games when they are issuing unrestricted medicals when agreeing to the process? Paranoia is heavy here. They are trying to get a serious issue dealt with.
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Didn't read it carefully enough, eh?
 
denverpilot said:
Didn't read it carefully enough, eh?
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>>>
If an evaluation is required, a laboratory sleep study or home study will not be required unless the evaluating physician determines it is warranted. The pilot may continue flying during the evaluation periodand treatment, if indicated.. The airman will have 90 days (or longer under special circumstances) to accomplish this. The FAA may consider an extension in some cases.
<<<

The above applies if the AME decides you need to be evaluated. This would be the situation where a pilot went in for his medical and the AME used the as yet unpublished criteria to decide an evaluation should be ordered. It says the pilot has 90 days to comply. It doesn't say what happens next.

The next part is a little vague:

>>>
Pilots diagnosed with OSA and undergoing treatment may send documentation of effective treatment to the FAA to arrange for a Special Issuancemedical certificate to replace the regular medical certificate.
<<<
 
The problem will not be for the people with OSA who are "saved" by the bureaucracy. The problem will be for the people who don't have it and have to prove its non-existence to the satisfaction of the bureaucrats in OKC.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Easier to just go sport pilot or lose the weight. Or buy a boat.
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Sport pilot is a problem if you're too heavy for the aircraft. That was one of the motivations I had for losing 60 pounds last year.
 
LoneAspen said:
Sounds like the best thing for me to do would be to contact Dr. Bruce when I get ready to start the process, and maybe use him as my AME, even though it would mean traveling to the midwest from California.

It would be worth it to me if it meant saving time and jumping through God knows how many hoops with the FAA.
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I did that. Traveled from Austin to Peoria, walked out of Dr. B's office with 3d class.
 
LoneAspen said:
Excellent! Thanks for that confirmation - I'll definitely plan on doing that when the time comes.
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Contact Dr B (or whatever AME you choose to use) no later than 60 days prior to your official medical. I'm sure you'll need to provide 31 days of CPAP machine data, a statement from your family doctor, and possibly other things. All these ducks need to be in a row before you fill out the medical form.
 
LoneAspen said:
Sounds like the best thing for me to do would be to contact Dr. Bruce when I get ready to start the process, and maybe use him as my AME, even though it would mean traveling to the midwest from California.

It would be worth it to me if it meant saving time and jumping through God knows how many hoops with the FAA.
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Not completely necessary, but it will speed up the training phase if you have the medical when you are ready for solo and don't have it yet.
 
Next up: Pilots who work 3rd shift won't be allowed a medical either.
 
EdFred said:
Next up: Pilots who work 3rd shift won't be allowed a medical either.
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They could have medical certificates stamped "Valid only for night flight." ;)
 
EdFred said:
Next up: Pilots who work 3rd shift won't be allowed a medical either.
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Probably some science behind that idea. If you accept third class medicals you deserve what you get.
 
I am -- gobsmacked. It just baffles me, the FAA or any other three letter agency of the govt puts out a clearly restrictive 'policy' with absolutely NO congressional oversight, and you are falling all over yourselves trying to figure out what dance steps to do for the feds.

It almost brings me to tears to read the rectal reaming this whole country is willing to undergo just so they can exercise some of their hard won freedom. Our country is finished. Just -- wow. If the feds shat it your punchbowl, well sorry but I guess you can ladle around the turd.
 
Government approval makes us safe/sarcasm

docmirror said:
I am -- gobsmacked. It just baffles me, the FAA or any other three letter agency of the govt puts out a clearly restrictive 'policy' with absolutely NO congressional oversight, and you are falling all over yourselves trying to figure out what dance steps to do for the feds.

It almost brings me to tears to read the rectal reaming this whole country is willing to undergo just so they can exercise some of their hard won freedom. Our country is finished. Just -- wow. If the feds shat it your punchbowl, well sorry but I guess you can ladle around the turd.
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docmirror said:
I am -- gobsmacked. It just baffles me, the FAA or any other three letter agency of the govt puts out a clearly restrictive 'policy' with absolutely NO congressional oversight, and you are falling all over yourselves trying to figure out what dance steps to do for the feds.

It almost brings me to tears to read the rectal reaming this whole country is willing to undergo just so they can exercise some of their hard won freedom. Our country is finished. Just -- wow. If the feds shat it your punchbowl, well sorry but I guess you can ladle around the turd.
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Yeah...completely impossible to understand why someone would want to keep their medical to fly. It certainly makes more sense to rant on the internet about it.
 
Matthew said:
According to some reports, chronic fatigue causes the same kind of decision making degradation as 0.xx blood alcohol levels (I don't remember the number.) FAA doesn't want pilots flying while dopey - or, the overlords FAA report to don't want it.
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But if the pilot is still good enough when "dopey" to pass their checkride or BFR, then who cares?

FWIW, I was very much against the original proposal last year. This one seems a lot more reasonable so far, though I do find some of the vagueness and "we'll tell you what the rules are after they take effect" rather disturbing.

I also think that doing this for third class is still a little over-doing it and will be one more nail in GA's coffin, but I'm afraid that it is what it is. In fact, I feel like maybe the first way-overboard proposal was simply there to make this one seem more reasonable.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
But if the pilot is still good enough when "dopey" to pass their checkride or BFR, then who cares?

FWIW, I was very much against the original proposal last year. This one seems a lot more reasonable so far, though I do find some of the vagueness and "we'll tell you what the rules are after they take effect" rather disturbing.

I also think that doing this for third class is still a little over-doing it and will be one more nail in GA's coffin, but I'm afraid that it is what it is. In fact, I feel like maybe the first way-overboard proposal was simply there to make this one seem more reasonable.
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Who cares? FAA cares. Why does FAA care? Because its congressional overlords care. And THEY care because their constituents think little airplanes are dangerous.
 
Matthew said:
Who cares? FAA cares. Why does FAA care? Because its congressional overlords care. And THEY care because their constituents think little airplanes are dangerous.
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Which congressional overlords requested this? I keep seeing this claim but never any congress critters actually demanding it. Let alone funding it.
 
P.S. Don't forget FAA has a track record of ignoring Congress when funding is not provided (photo ID) and other federal laws (privacy laws).
 
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