Ugh

Fearless Tower said:
I wouldn't be suprised if the plane didn't have a panel mounted GPS, but keep in mind those pictures are all of Ponderosa's piston Commanders. The one that crashed was a Turbo prop that according to the website they just added to the fleet.
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I just looked up the tail number on flightaware. The last flight that was filed for the aircraft was filed /G. Still doesn't mean much-they could've had one of thos old text only IFR gps units. Those don't really provide much more SA than a dual VOR with DME.
 
tlglenn said:
Seems improbable, but so was the CFIT. Now that the NTSB has released the prelim report, however, I have a better educated guess.
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The whole thing is unfortunate. Seems like one of those things that didn't have to happen.
 
Were it me I'd politely ask for immediate clearance through the Bravo. Were I asked to standby or denied, I'd offer to give myself a new transponder code starting with a 7. I'd rather take on the FAA and it's minions than one of those big rocks in the dark.
 
Based on the prelim report it looks like they held runway heading for a few miles before being cleared to turn right. A direct-to from that point took them into the mountain. I think they were used to turning right immediately after takeoff in which case a direct-to would keep them clear of the mountain.
 
The pilot should have obtained the proper climb gradient with his aircraft of choice immediately leaving the Class B border, and done "S" turns at the very least, if in doubt. There is no requirement to fly the direct route.

Pilawt said:
You really have to thread the needle to stay below Bravo airspace east of KFFZ. Trying to remain VFR below the Bravo out there is difficult in the daytime and IMHO unthinkable at night.

On the chart below note the 5,067' peak just three NM outside the 5,000' Bravo floor. Floor of Outlaw MOA is 8,000'.

The blue line is the direct KFFZ-KSAD course:

KFFZ-KSAD.jpg


I took this photo while ducking down under the Bravo inbound to Williams-Gateway from the northeast ...

DSC04536.JPG
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Agreed David... But...
There is maybe 20 seconds after leaving the Bravo airspace limitation before impact. Knowing this (FAA was warned years in advance) there should have been A:-Beacons on the Mountain, and/or B:-Mandatory warning from the tower to anyone heading East.
Think of it from the other direction... The FAA knowingly has jet aircraft (from East) going 300Mph into a class Bravo airspace where the top of the mountain is into their airspace, only a few seconds outside of the Bravo. Not a good idea.
 
CT4ME said:
Agreed David... But...
There is maybe 20 seconds after leaving the Bravo airspace limitation before impact. Knowing this (FAA was warned years in advance) there should have been A:-Beacons on the Mountain, and/or B:-Mandatory warning from the tower to anyone heading East.
Think of it from the other direction... The FAA knowingly has jet aircraft (from East) going 300Mph into a class Bravo airspace where the top of the mountain is into their airspace, only a few seconds outside of the Bravo. Not a good idea.
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I'm unfamiliar with the type of aircraft he flew, can it be slowed down and still fly?

We see other similar B airspace floors with half circles cut into them to help relieve this inconvenience when desiring a direct route with climb from below, is it feasible there with the typical high speed/high occupancy traffic above?
 
CT4ME said:
'still no NTSB report... but I missed this info from June... some ass coverin' goin on... very good report
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/1...s-light-on-superstition-mountains-plane-crash
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This quote from the article is so very true....
"The culture is in place has evolved that people simply don't ask for permission to enter the bravo airspace because they feel they're going to be denied. Don't ask cause you're not going to get it."
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I have alot of respect for PHX controllers. They have a very challenging job there and as long as you are IFR, they handle you well.

But, Phoenix TRACON has created that culture menitoned. It has become their way of dealing with the increasing amount of jet traffic and ridiculous amount of flight training in the area, much of it by foreign students who do not handle radio communications well. The standard response of PHX Approach is 'aircraft calling, remain clear of the class B'. Most folks who fly in the Phoenix area have simply been conditioned to not bother trying to talk to TRACON unless they are IFR.

- Now there is a thought.....maybe someone should use the Phoenix example of what the NAS is going to be like if the country goes to user fees for ATC services. A whole lot of people dodging terrain and each other because they don't want to pay for ATC.
 
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steingar said:
Were it me I'd politely ask for immediate clearance through the Bravo. Were I asked to standby or denied, I'd offer to give myself a new transponder code starting with a 7. I'd rather take on the FAA and it's minions than one of those big rocks in the dark.
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That all sounds great, but in order to do that you must FIRST recognize that you are standing into danger and that is where they made their error - got complacent and didn't realize where they were heading while the tower kept them on runway heading.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That all sounds great, but in order to do that you must FIRST recognize that you are standing into danger and that is where they made their error - got complacent and didn't realize where they were heading while the tower kept them on runway heading.
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Anyone who flies toward rocks in the dark and doesn't realize they're in danger is a special kind of stupid. Heck, I get nervous seeing terrain out of the window during the daytime!
 
I remember this accident and it really got to me at the time. As a Commander owner myself of course, but mainly those 3 little kids. A whole family gone in an instant. Absolutely tragic and heart wrenching. And perhaps avoidable.

If we can change an obviously flawed B (this is not the first crash in this area) airspace to let even people who might not be at their best, are tired, make mistakes or are just plane stupid some wiggle room - and save three innocent children whilst doing it - I think it's a good idea. At least advice on terrain. What happened to "Are you aware or rising terrain?".
 
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I am probably going to totally thrashed, but I remember reading about this crash, and thinking about how much a waste it was, and how it did not have to happen. I am sure that there is a lot of blame being thrown around, and a lot more will be made, but there is one inrefutable fact, the pilot made the decision to take off that night and he is ultimately the only one responsible for this crash. There was no mechanical failure, ATC did what they were required to do, and the terrain is well described in the available sectionals, etc. The pilot chose to take off in a well known moutainous area, that is known to be difficult to navigate. Even in the best of circumstances, a small mistep in this area can mean the difference between hitting a mountain, and not. He was not a student pilot, nor even a pilot flying a trainer, or a plane a step or two better than a trainer. He was an experienced pilot who chose to take off in at best marginally acceptable conditions, in a dangerous area, and did not take the proper precautions to protect what is most valuable in the world, and ultimately paid the price for it.

Plain and simple, whether by design or circumstance he chose to commit suicide, and I will shed narely a tear for him. That he chose to take what is most precious in the world with him, is unforgivable, and if there is an afterlife I hope there is a special place in hell for him. (I am sure he was a good guy and a great pilot, they always are, aren't they and if any of us know him I am sorry for my bluntness.) The ones I feel most sorry for are the survivors, he and his passengers probably did not even know what hit them, the children's families and friends are his final and ultimate victims and they will suffer for the rest of their lives for his stupidity.
 
douglas393 said:
I am probably going to totally thrashed, but I remember reading about this crash, and thinking about how much a waste it was, and how it did not have to happen. I am sure that there is a lot of blame being thrown around, and a lot more will be made, but there is one inrefutable fact, the pilot made the decision to take off that night and he is ultimately the only one responsible for this crash. There was no mechanical failure, ATC did what they were required to do, and the terrain is well described in the available sectionals, etc. The pilot chose to take off in a well known moutainous area, that is known to be difficult to navigate. Even in the best of circumstances, a small mistep in this area can mean the difference between hitting a mountain, and not. He was not a student pilot, nor even a pilot flying a trainer, or a plane a step or two better than a trainer. He was an experienced pilot who chose to take off in at best marginally acceptable conditions, in a dangerous area, and did not take the proper precautions to protect what is most valuable in the world, and ultimately paid the price for it.

Plain and simple, whether by design or circumstance he chose to commit suicide, and I will shed narely a tear for him. That he chose to take what is most precious in the world with him, is unforgivable, and if there is an afterlife I hope there is a special place in hell for him. (I am sure he was a good guy and a great pilot, they always are, aren't they and if any of us know him I am sorry for my bluntness.) The ones I feel most sorry for are the survivors, he and his passengers probably did not even know what hit them, the children's families and friends are his final and ultimate victims and they will suffer for the rest of their lives for his stupidity.
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I won't slam you. You're right.

KFFZ has an obstacle departure procedure that keeps you out of the Class B and takes you SW to IFNUR intersection; if he'd done that before heading east and continuing his climb to 7000, 8000 and higher as he headed east bound, he could have stayed out of the Class B... and clear of terrain.

You fly where there are known mountains, you better know to look for and read ODPs. Follow them, or make your own. But don't just fly towards dark rocks and hope for the best.
 
douglas393 said:
I am probably going to totally thrashed, but I remember reading about this crash, and thinking about how much a waste it was, and how it did not have to happen. I am sure that there is a lot of blame being thrown around, and a lot more will be made, but there is one inrefutable fact, the pilot made the decision to take off that night and he is ultimately the only one responsible for this crash. There was no mechanical failure, ATC did what they were required to do, and the terrain is well described in the available sectionals, etc. The pilot chose to take off in a well known moutainous area, that is known to be difficult to navigate. Even in the best of circumstances, a small mistep in this area can mean the difference between hitting a mountain, and not. He was not a student pilot, nor even a pilot flying a trainer, or a plane a step or two better than a trainer. He was an experienced pilot who chose to take off in at best marginally acceptable conditions, in a dangerous area, and did not take the proper precautions to protect what is most valuable in the world, and ultimately paid the price for it.

Plain and simple, whether by design or circumstance he chose to commit suicide, and I will shed narely a tear for him. That he chose to take what is most precious in the world with him, is unforgivable, and if there is an afterlife I hope there is a special place in hell for him. (I am sure he was a good guy and a great pilot, they always are, aren't they and if any of us know him I am sorry for my bluntness.) The ones I feel most sorry for are the survivors, he and his passengers probably did not even know what hit them, the children's families and friends are his final and ultimate victims and they will suffer for the rest of their lives for his stupidity.
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No flame here. The airspace and TRACON situation can only be considered 'contributing factors'.

That said, if this crash at least has the effect of finally addressing the airspace and ATC issues that have been going on for a while and makes flying in the Phoenix area ultimately safer, I would not complain.
 
Fearless Tower said:
No flame here. The airspace and TRACON situation can only be considered 'contributing factors'.

That said, if this crash at least has the effect of finally addressing the airspace and ATC issues that have been going on for a while and makes flying in the Phoenix area ultimately safer, I would not complain.
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Concur. For an agency that bends over backwards and imposes regs that make flying "safer" (ADs for example), hazards caused by the agency's own airspace designs should also be addressed in the same way.

Unfortunately, given the history, I am not optimistic that changes to the airspace will result, and I'd sure hate the result to be some kind of prohibition or restriction on flying in certain areas.

This is an area where AOPA and similar organizations could take an advocacy role, but that, too, is unlikely given the other things they are doing.
 
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