Ugh

GCA319 said:
Night VFR has it's time and place and can be done safely with proper SA, but over unfamiliar terrain low level is not one of those places.
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And that's what's puzzling. The pilot was highly experienced and had flown that route hundreds of times.
 
onwards said:
Wow. Just wow. So they lower the Bravo in such a way that it creates an issue for GA pilots, and then (if I understand correctly) make it really difficult to get clearance into the Bravo, leaving the same pilots with practically no choice? is this what I'm understanding from this? That's nuts. I know I'm new to aviation, but how often does this sort of thing happen?
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On this particular flight/route it sure looks to me that a dogleg putting in an extra 2-4 miles would have provided plenty of time to climb above the rocks outside the Class B. Overall, I don't see any real big issues with VFR departures outside the Bravo other than small deviations, it seems the real problems (if any) are with IFR routes out of the area for small planes and perhaps issues with VFR departures that involve flight in the Bravo for some reason (e.g. departing from the main airport, taking off from a reliever on the opposite side of your destination, etc) with ATC keeping you on a heading and altitude that's not convenient for your intended direction of departure.
 
gismo said:
On this particular flight/route it sure looks to me that a dogleg putting in an extra 2-4 miles would have provided plenty of time to climb above the rocks outside the Class B. Overall, I don't see any real big issues with VFR departures outside the Bravo other than small deviations, it seems the real problems (if any) are with IFR routes out of the area for small planes and perhaps issues with VFR departures that involve flight in the Bravo for some reason (e.g. departing from the main airport, taking off from a reliever on the opposite side of your destination, etc) with ATC keeping you on a heading and altitude that's not convenient for your intended direction of departure.
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Gismo,

Looking at the Charts, and Earth I saw the same thing. So much so that it isn't a tight fit, past the mountain he hit to the south she had all the room in the world to climb. But I could be reading it wrong.

I see your from MSP. When I go home to Northern Iowa for Christmas I'm going to fly to visit a buddy in Duluth from Mason City, IA if the weather cooperates. How's MSP Class B, do they usually play nice and let you through?

Tony
 
onwards said:
Well, I mean, that's because general aviation is, in large part, about leisure flights. It stands to reason that many accidents will occur in those kinds of flights. Right?

Sounds from the news story like he did this plenty of times before, so I don't know that there was anything wrong with the decision to take-off. Or did I misread and this was an unfamiliar environment?

That letter from the AOPA person though is chilling. It's like someone predicting exactly this accident.
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ATC serves the interests of the companies that own the senators. C90 (Chicago approach control) is such a tracon.

If they didn't put GA at the BOTTOM of their list (e.g, off the list), I would not oppose their eternal airspace grabs, but sad fact is that they do. They say, in C90 space, "Weeee can't HEAR you....." in their best Sargent Carter voice.

But this is a direct consequence of tracon grabs, and we need to oppose it at every opportunity.
 
I got great service and two clearances through the inner rings of the DEN Bravo today.

Love my local controllers. They're great.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Some folks that live out that-a-way are saying it's very difficult to get Class B clearance or FF from Phoenix Approach there. It's difficult as has been said to fly VFR and stay below B and above D while avoiding terrain. They feel strongly, Phoenix Approach should work with VFR traffic more.

Best,

Dave
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This is actually fairly accurate - Phoenix approach is NOT VFR friendly compared to some other Class B areas (like SoCal).

The only time I have ever gotten a VFR clearance through the Bravo is on the charted VFR transition over PHX and even that can be hit or miss depending on the traffic level. Standard response from Phoenix Tracon to a VFR aircraft calling up is 'aircraft calling remain clear of the class B' and then they go back to working the jets.

My general rule of thumb is if I am going to/from the Phoenix area, I am IFR. I have never had a problem with Phoenix Approach IFR whether was going into FFZ or PHX.

With that said, I was in AZ with family for the holiday and watched the local news. Sounded like these guys had regular business at FFZ (lot of aerial firefighting stuff goes on at Falcon), so they were most likely familiar with the area. I don't think this was a case of a transient plane flying into unfamiliar terrain in the dark. I suspect this was a case of maybe too familiar with the area that they were complacent. Flying that route VFR at night with DME (off PXR) and a handheld GPS would be rather simple, but if you were distracted at the wrong moment, there is little margin for error as the above chart shows.
 
denverpilot said:
I got great service and two clearances through the inner rings of the DEN Bravo today.

Love my local controllers. They're great.
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That is the funny thing about SoCal in the San Diego area...even with Lindbergh and two military air stations (North Island and Miramar), they seem to welcome VFR traffic. I can't tell you how many times they have cleared me into the Bravo without even asking for it.
 
Jaybird180 said:
If you were flying this route, VFR without a 'B' clearance on a moonless night and you tookoff on a NE departure runway, what would you do to mitigate the risk of CFIT?
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If I was unfamiliar with the area, I would not consider a VFR departure there - I would go IFR.

Being that I AM familiar (maybe not as familiar as the pilot in question), I would have used the VFR waypoint VPREN as the first waypoint in my flight plan on the GPS (either panel mounted if the airplane had it or my handheld). Then I would have been following Highway 60 out of town which would keep you well clear of both the terrain and the Willie Class D. Once clear of the Bravo shelf, it would be unrestricted climb direct Safford.

Advantage of that route is that you have the lights of the highway along your initial route and you know that you want to stay clear of the dark space to your left.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is the funny thing about SoCal in the San Diego area...even with Lindbergh and two military air stations (North Island and Miramar), they seem to welcome VFR traffic.
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NYC, also a very busy Bravo, is welcoming to VFR traffic and handles transitions effortlessly. I imagine it would be frustrating to fly in an area where the Class B is effectively off-limits to VFR traffic.
 
Mike I said:
NYC, also a very busy Bravo, is welcoming to VFR traffic and handles transitions effortlessly. I imagine it would be frustrating to fly in an area where the Class B is effectively off-limits to VFR traffic.
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That is a good point....I remember when I was flying in New England a few years ago, BOS would almost never clear you through their Bravo, but NY was far more accomodating!
 
Chicago Approach won't talk to you unless you're IFR in which case they give you ridiculous routings and make sure to tell you to keep your speed up.
 
Flying h4x0r said:
Chicago Approach won't talk to you unless you're IFR in which case they give you ridiculous routings and make sure to tell you to keep your speed up.
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That's sad. I will say this about Phoenix - they are pretty good at working GA in and out as long as you are IFR. I've only had to hold for sequencing into PHX once and the only times I've been asked to keep my speed up was on final for PHX.

I did once get a 'ground hold' for about 20 minutes departing MYF for sequencing into PHX during the morning rush, though.
 
Having played with Chicago, Philly, Cincy and NYC I'd say give me the New Yorkers! Philly and Chicago simply can't be bothered with you but Cincinnati isn't too bad recently as the traffic volume is down. I've even heard a little buzz about dropping it to a Charlie but I doubt it very much.

Being effectivly denied airspace because of the flight rules you are flying under is simply wrong.
 
Skylane81E said:
Having played with Chicago, Philly, Cincy and NYC I'd say give me the New Yorkers! Philly and Chicago simply can't be bothered with you but Cincinnati isn't too bad recently as the traffic volume is down. I've even heard a little buzz about dropping it to a Charlie but I doubt it very much.

Being effectivly denied airspace because of the flight rules you are flying under is simply wrong.
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What suprises me about PHX being so anti-VFR is that it seems like it would be rather easy to separate the airline vs GA traffic since the traffic flow into and out of Sky Harbor is always EAST/WEST. Alot less complicated that New York or SoCal.

I'm wondering if it is a manning thing or lack of sufficient facilities. The other possibility is that they just don't want to deal with all of the foreign students in their airspace. You would almost need a separate Chineese controller with a discreet freq to handle them.
 
I don't really give a crap WHY they don't want to let you in.

Here's the way I see it, if they really wanted IFR only traffic the FAA would mandate an IR. However they don't (nor should they) so provided I have the equipment required to comunicate and let you ID me (Com and Xpnder) Let me the hell in!
 
Skylane81E said:
Having played with Chicago, Philly, Cincy and NYC I'd say give me the New Yorkers! Philly and Chicago simply can't be bothered
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I've heard that alot about Philly, online, CFI's at KPNE, etc. Then When living up there I wanted to transit the river south a few times. I was so concerned about it I started a forum on another thread. Then the big day came to transit the river from PNE south!! The Philly controllers where nice as could be and very accommodating.

I can't blame PNX Tracon for this one, when the PIC didn't even ask to start climbing (so the story goes).

Looking at his plane pictures online I thought he had mounted GPS's, but maybe not after looking at this: http://ponderosaaviation.net/PICTURES4.html

Tony
 
SAROPS said:
Looking at his plane pictures online I thought he had mounted GPS's, but maybe not after looking at this: http://ponderosaaviation.net/PICTURES4.html
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I wouldn't be suprised if the plane didn't have a panel mounted GPS, but keep in mind those pictures are all of Ponderosa's piston Commanders. The one that crashed was a Turbo prop that according to the website they just added to the fleet.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is a good point....I remember when I was flying in New England a few years ago, BOS would almost never clear you through their Bravo, but NY was far more accomodating!
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This data point is nearly a decade old (sad), but BOS wasn't ever a problem for me out of BED. BDL, on the other hand... full moon night, dead air, C open... ATC wouldn't even give me FF, never mind a transit.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
SAROPS said:
Gismo,

Looking at the Charts, and Earth I saw the same thing. So much so that it isn't a tight fit, past the mountain he hit to the south she had all the room in the world to climb. But I could be reading it wrong.

I see your from MSP. When I go home to Northern Iowa for Christmas I'm going to fly to visit a buddy in Duluth from Mason City, IA if the weather cooperates. How's MSP Class B, do they usually play nice and let you through?

Tony
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Very late at night the MSP TRACON is likely to clear you through the Bravo on a direct route to anywhere but outside of the midnight to 5AM timeslot you'll probably get vectored around the arrival and departure paths. Several times I've been cleared right across the top of KMSP when headed east from FCM and MSP is landing to the north but equally often I get sent 15 miles north or south of MSP at 3000.

If MSP is using the parallels (30-12) you might skate through by flying directly to MSP on your way to DLH. Otherwise I'd plan on staying 5-10 nm east of the outer Class B ring.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What suprises me about PHX being so anti-VFR is that it seems like it would be rather easy to separate the airline vs GA traffic since the traffic flow into and out of Sky Harbor is always EAST/WEST. Alot less complicated that New York or SoCal.

I'm wondering if it is a manning thing or lack of sufficient facilities. The other possibility is that they just don't want to deal with all of the foreign students in their airspace. You would almost need a separate Chineese controller with a discreet freq to handle them.
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Brings back memories of the time I flew into DVT. I was dodging "Transfright" callsigns left and right.
 
tlglenn said:
I wonder if the pilot was using dead reckoning, but failed to notice that the DG had precessed after leveling off.
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This class of aircraft typically has a slaved HSI.
 
bbchien said:
ATC serves the interests of the companies that own the senators. C90 (Chicago approach control) is such a tracon.

If they didn't put GA at the BOTTOM of their list (e.g, off the list), I would not oppose their eternal airspace grabs, but sad fact is that they do. They say, in C90 space, "Weeee can't HEAR you....." in their best Sargent Carter voice.

But this is a direct consequence of tracon grabs, and we need to oppose it at every opportunity.
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Just like C90, there is an airline headquartered in Phoenix.
 
astanley said:
This data point is nearly a decade old (sad), but BOS wasn't ever a problem for me out of BED. BDL, on the other hand... full moon night, dead air, C open... ATC wouldn't even give me FF, never mind a transit.
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In the last few years, I've only been turned down for FF once by BDL, and that was 5pm with a sketchy radio. Come to think of it, that same flight we got a clearance through the BOS Bravo (we had our radios sorted out by the time we got to their airspace).
 
Prelim is out:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20111124X85300&key=1

Starting to make a little more sense now - departed 4R, tower had them maintain RH for a about 90 seconds for another aircraft before they were cleared to turn right. Leveled off at 4500......that's what they hit the mountain at.

FWIW, the reason the prelim has so much detail about seat positions is due to a media report that came out last week detailing self-reported depression issues with the father of the kids.

Sad stuff.
 
Fearless Tower said:
FWIW, the reason the prelim has so much detail about seat positions is due to a media report that came out last week detailing self-reported depression issues with the father of the kids.

Sad stuff.
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So unless his copilot and the mechanic were depressed as well, his personal health and relationship issues dragged out by the local fishwrap in conjunction with some unscrupulous attorneys was entirely irrelevant to the accident.
 
weilke said:
So unless his copilot and the mechanic were depressed as well, his personal health and relationship issues dragged out by the local fishwrap in conjunction with some unscrupulous attorneys was entirely irrelevant to the accident.
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Exactly and why I think the NTSB highlighted the seat arrangements.
 
Sounds like the simplest explanation is that the pilot was used to being able to make an immediate right turn, hitting direct-to on the GPS, and letting the autopilot fly the airplane. The 90-second delay placed the ridge in the direct path. Complacency can kill.
 
tlglenn said:
Sounds like the simplest explanation is that the pilot was used to being able to make an immediate right turn, hitting direct-to on the GPS, and letting the autopilot fly the airplane. The 90-second delay placed the ridge in the direct path. Complacency can kill.
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Combine that with the fact that he was flying a turbo prop....it will be interesting when the final report comes out to see his time in that model of aircraft. Unless I am misunderstood the note on their website, I believe the 690 was a recent addition to their fleet of piston commanders. The increased speed while keeping the climb shallow may have really thrown him off.
 
That was my thought exactly. They ate up a lot more distance than expected during the 90 second "fly runway heading" before turning. This resulted in situational awareness confusion. Reported this was a route that they had flown before. Complacency probably contributed to an attitude that it was a familiar departure, without recognizing the impact of the straight out leg on departure.
 
Good points... but was kinda looking for, somewhere in the report: "Pilot was flying in a complex airspace, that forced him to fly 400-500 ft below the peaks, leaving the pilot as few as 20 seconds to gain enough altitude to clear the mountain. There were no lighting beacons identifying the peaks."
Of course it wasn't mentioned, and probably won't get a line in the final report either. None of speculative contributing causes would matter if he was allowed to climb normally, and wasn't having to restrict his climb so close to the peaks.
I'm just saying....
 
CT4ME said:
Good points... but was kinda looking for, somewhere in the report: "Pilot was flying in a complex airspace, that forced him to fly 400-500 ft below the peaks, leaving the pilot as few as 20 seconds to gain enough altitude to clear the mountain. There were no lighting beacons identifying the peaks."
Of course it wasn't mentioned, and probably won't get a line in the final report either. None of speculative contributing causes would matter if he was allowed to climb normally, and wasn't having to restrict his climb so close to the peaks.
I'm just saying....
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That is the kind of stuff that I would expect to see in the final not a prelim. Whether or not it takes a prominent role in the final will of ocourse depend on politics, but it is certainly being highlighted by AOPA.
 
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