Types of XC logbook entries

[Josh Whitman]

I've read so many different things logging XC time that all I know for sure is that I'm making myself more confused than necessary.

First, my situation. I am a student pilot training part 61 for my private pilot certificate. I then intend to complete a part 141 instrument course and 141 commercial. I ultimately have my sights on the airlines and will likely instruct at my school which sometimes pays for CFI and CFII until I can get a FO spot with a regional or possibly look at something 135.

Here is where I get confused:

14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i):

Cross-country time means -
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight -

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​

I understand that to be the definition of what is sometimes referred to as "Basic Cross Country". It's a broad definition and to my understanding, as long as I navigate to a landing point other than my departure point (Doesn't even need to be an airport for that matter) I can log the time in the XC column. If I take off from KCCO and navigate to and land at KLGC (23.7NM) the flight can be logged as XC according to the above.

Question 1: If I do a touch and go at KLGC, and then spend an hour doing maneuvers before returning to KCCO does the entire flight go in the XC column or just the portion where I navigated from KCCO to KLGC. I've seen answers saying yes and no.

14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(ii):

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under§ 61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight -

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​

Obviously the flight from KCCO to KLGC would not qualify for this definition of XC and obviously I need to be keeping track of flights that do fit this requirement as I need them to meet the aeronautical experience requirements of the Private Pilot Certificate. I use an LogTen Pro and currently I log all flights that fit the "Basic Cross Country" definition. I then have an indicator on all flight logs that meet the aeronautical experience requirements definition of XC. This allows me to know that right now I have 21.2 hours of "Basic cross country" flights and 3.7 hours of which were flights that included a landing at an airport more than 50 NM from the point of departure.

Question 2: I am logging it like this because I've seen that not logging basic XC can hurt you down the road when an application wants to know basic XC time regardless of distance (insurance, rentals, some part 135 jobs, ect). When I print out my logbook the basic XC will show in the cross country column, but I can also print out a separate log that shows just the XC > 50M flights and that total as well. Is there an issue with the way I'm logging it? Am I creating more trouble now than I think I am saving in the future?

One article that I'm following is the AOPA article titled "Logging Cross-Country Time" (I would post a link bit I the forum says I'm too green for that! )

 

[Salty]

I wouldn’t log any flight that you didn’t land 50 nm away as cross country. Doesn’t matter if you flew in circles for 500 miles. The point is to demonstrate you dealt with weather, fuel management, and airspace issues you wouldn’t have if you went in circles 10 miles from home.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

You can do it Salty’s way but you might short change yourself down the road. Make two cross country columns in your logbook. One for cross countries greater than 50 miles and one for 50 or less. That way, when you go for your ATP, you might not have to worry about if you have enough XC time.

 

[MTWings]

Or just log the xc like the FAR says from the definition of XC and for those XC over 50nm just put an asterisk or some kind of marking next to the entry so you can easily come back later and total the XC for adding a rating.

 

[Salty]

You can do it Salty’s way but you might short change yourself down the road. Make two cross country columns in your logbook. One for cross countries greater than 50 miles and one for 50 or less. That way, when you go for your ATP, you might not have to worry about if you have enough XC time.

I don’t disagree with this, but I also don’t understand why you wouldn’t fly to another airport anyway and gain that experience.

 

[kath]

I only log things >50 NM as XC, and whenever IACRA time rolls around, those are the only XC's that I count in those totals.
But there's nothing stopping you from logging the little guys as well, using some kind of distinguisher (asterisk, separate column, etc.) as you like.

Since IACRA also wants to know things like "solo time", if there's not a column for that in your logbook, I recommend getting in the habit of marking some kind of distinguisher for any flight that is solo, as opposed to with passengers. (For instance, I write "solo" in the remarks.)

I've never encountered an insurance company that cared about XC time in any way. Usually they are only interested in things like total hours and time in make/model. Likewise with rentals; never had anyone ask for the XC column or have some kind of minimum.

Now, I don't have experience with ATP or 135, so can't speak to the utility of "little XC's" for that... but since a nice >50 NM XC is my idea of a "fun Saturday", I don't sweat it.

 

[Somedudeintn]

This is one thing I like about a digital logbook. MyFlightbook has an option to add cross country less than 50nm. My paper logbook only totals up the 50nm cross countries.

 

[BrianNC]

Or just log the xc like the FAR says from the definition of XC and for those XC over 50nm just put an asterisk or some kind of marking next to the entry so you can easily come back later and total the XC for adding a rating.

This is what I do. For a 'point to point' x country but not over 50NM I just put a little 'PTP' beside the entry under the x country column.

 

[BrianNC]

Question 1: If I do a touch and go at KLGC, and then spend an hour doing maneuvers before returning to KCCO does the entire flight go in the XC column or just the portion where I navigated from KCCO to KLGC. I've seen answers saying yes and no.

Whether it's >50nm x country or a point to point, I have always logged the entire time. As a matter of fact, when practicing for my recent commercial check ride I would make it a point to land at another airport so I could at least count the time as point to point x country.

 

[jaybee]

For the purposes of obtaining the experience requirements of an ATP you don't even need to land for it to count as XC...

Just throwing that out there you know to simplify things... j/k

If you use a digital log book what I did was just logged all XC as XC, then made yes/no columns for whether it qualified for particular categories of XC such as 25nm for Helicopter, 50nm for Airplane, 50nm but no landing for ATP( if my foggy memory is right you need to land for it to count towards a 135 job...), etc, etc

 

[Josh Whitman]

For the purposes of obtaining the experience requirements of an ATP you don't even need to land for it to count as XC...

Just throwing that out there you know to simplify things... j/k

If you use a digital log book what I did was just logged all XC as XC, then made yes/no columns for whether it qualified for particular categories of XC such as 25nm for Helicopter, 50nm for Airplane, 50nm but no landing for ATP( if my foggy memory is right you need to land for it to count towards a 135 job...), etc, etc

That actually exactly what I'm doing. I have two toggles one for "XC > 50 NM" and another for "XC > 50 NM w/LDG". I log all XC and then check none, one or both boxes as appropriate. LogTen lets me run a report of all flights that have those checked.

One thing I remember hearing somewhere is that if you go to an interview and they don't like the way you made your entries, they will cross the entire entry out and deduct it from your totals. At the same time I've heard people say they've gone to interviews with nice totaled log books professionally printed and an interviewer not even open it or at least not scrutinize it for much more than a minute (And get the job). Those seem like two wildly differing experiences on both sides of the spectrum where there is more likely a much more common middle ground.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

If they physically cross out an entry in my logbook, interview over. They have no right to do that.

They are within their rights to not count it, however.

 

[MTWings]

If they physically cross out an entry in my logbook, interview over. They have no right to do that.

They are within their rights to not count it, however.

Who crosses out entires??

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Who crosses out entires??

I don’t know. I was responding to Josh’s post right above mine.

 

[TommyG]

Just stick to 50nm.

 

[Josh Whitman]

If they physically cross out an entry in my logbook, interview over. They have no right to do that.

They are within their rights to not count it, however.

Yea I thought it sounded a bit exaggerated.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Just stick to 50nm.

Or not. Those less than 50 mile cross countries can make a difference when working towards the ATP.

Of course, I am not advocating doing a bunch os short cross countries just to build time. That is just silly. But there is absolutely no reason not to count the short ones if you are making the trip anyway.

 

[GreatLakesFlying]

FWIW, Gleim logbooks have two columns for xc: one for any kind of xc, and a second for those > 50 NM.

 

[Josh Whitman]

FWIW, Gleim logbooks have two columns for xc: one for any kind of xc, and a second for those > 50 NM.

That's exactly what I need for my hardcopy logbook! I guess I should consider it now before I get too many logs.
Thank you everyone. I was amazed at the number of replies I got, so I am certainly glad I joined this forum.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Or not. Those less than 50 mile cross countries can make a difference when working towards the ATP.

Of course, I am not advocating doing a bunch os short cross countries just to build time. That is just silly. But there is absolutely no reason not to count the short ones if you are making the trip anyway.

The short ones can make a difference for that first Part 135 job. I think Part 135 qualifications are the only place the FAA uses logged cross countries of 50 no or less.

Personally, one if the things my first CFI did helped with this. For local flights, he logged "AAA LOCAL" rather than "AAA - AAA." It was a habit I continued. Not too much help for paper, but when I moved to electronic backup almost 25 years ago, counting all cross country flights became as simple as querying for flights in which "local" did not appear,

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's exactly what I need for my hardcopy logbook! I guess I should consider it now before I get too many logs.
Thank you everyone. I was amazed at the number of replies I got, so I am certainly glad I joined this forum.

Most paper logbooks have a spare column or two.

 

[Hank S]

FWIW, Gleim logbooks have two columns for xc: one for any kind of xc, and a second for those > 50 NM. View attachment 68269

This is what I use, but without the decimals (that's what the dividing line is for . . . . ). Works great, the first one lasted about 700 hours. My newest one has a couple more columns, too but retained two blank columns on the left page, one of which I use to record Time in Type for insurance.

I keep a running list in a spreadsheet of every plane I fly, and built a section that tracks my total time every year by aircraft so that I have the totals for my insurance company. It's all part of a hefty spreadsheet that I started to track the places I've lived, then added addresses, states visited (with many columns for with family, alone, business, driving, airlines and flying myself, etc.), so adding my various flight activities was pretty simple.

 

[m1marin]

HI - hope I'm not threadjacking. I always wondered whether PIC-XC time as a student pilot counts for meeting the criteria of (i)(A) below for a future instrument rating. I would assume so because a student pilot has to have a student pilot certificate in order to solo. A student pilot certificate is still a type of pilot certificate. Right?

Cross-country time means -

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight -

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Two ways to log:

Follow the rules as laid out by the FAA. Or,
Make up your own rules - like not logging cross countries under some length, logging time when your buddy is actually wiggling the stick because it's your airplane, logging time from lift off instead of start up, etc. etc. etc.

 

[weilke]

That's exactly what I need for my hardcopy logbook! I guess I should consider it now before I get too many logs.
Thank you everyone. I was amazed at the number of replies I got, so I am certainly glad I joined this forum.

Make a post stating that you like ice cream and it'll be at 50 Posts before noon.

 

[Somedudeintn]

Two ways to log:

Follow the rules as laid out by the FAA. Or,
Make up your own rules - like not logging cross countries under some length, logging time when your buddy is actually wiggling the stick because it's your airplane, logging time from lift off instead of start up, etc. etc. etc.

Where are the FAA logging rules? All I recall seeing is that you need to be able to show currency.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Where are the FAA logging rules? All I recall seeing is that you need to be able to show currency.

61.1 (defines cross country) and 61.51 covers most of it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

HI - hope I'm not threadjacking. I always wondered whether PIC-XC time as a student pilot counts for meeting the criteria of (i)(A) below for a future instrument rating. I would assume so because a student pilot has to have a student pilot certificate in order to solo. A student pilot certificate is still a type of pilot certificate. Right?

Cross-country time means -

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight -

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​

Yes. But the 61.65 cross country requires it to be as (logged) PIC, so only the solo cross countries count toward it.

 

[Neil Rubin]

The short ones can make a difference for that first Part 135 job. I think Part 135 qualifications are the only place the FAA uses logged cross countries of 50 no or less.

Personally, one if the things my first CFI did helped with this. For local flights, he logged "AAA LOCAL" rather than "AAA - AAA." It was a habit I continued. Not too much help for paper, but when I moved to electronic backup almost 25 years ago, counting all cross country flights became as simple as querying for flights in which "local" did not appear,

The general cross country definition with no minimum distance is used for Category II and Category III pilot authorizations (as well as Part 135, as you note). You need 250 nm of PIC cross country under this definition for Cat II/III authorization.

In my electronic logbook, I record the distance to the farthest point of landing, as well as a notation for any flight where I flew more than 50 nm, but didn’t land more than 50 nm from point of departure. That way I’m prepared to calculate any one of the dozen or so different types of cross country I might need to enter into IACRA some day for a future rating.

 

[EricBe]

This is one thing I like about a digital logbook. MyFlightbook has an option to add cross country less than 50nm. My paper logbook only totals up the 50nm cross countries.

My block post[https://myflightbookblog.blogspot.com/2018/08/logging-cross-country-time.html] covers techniques for logging this in MyFlightbook. In particular, point-to-point is not necessary to log since it can be computed.

 

[woodchucker]

An informative thread ... thanks OP and all posters! I’m going to have to go back and look at my own XC time and take up these suggestions.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My block post[https://myflightbookblog.blogspot.com/2018/08/logging-cross-country-time.html] covers techniques for logging this in MyFlightbook. In particular, point-to-point is not necessary to log since it can be computed.

That's been the case for me in my self-made eLog before switching full time to MyFlightBook. But doesn't that assume the pilot is only identifying airports he or she has landed at in the Route field and not enroute airports used as waypoints?

To use the example in your blog post, how does MyFlightBook treat KSEA KSFO KSEA? A pilot might legitimately log that as his or her Route whether or not landing at KSFO.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

So I am sitting here with 25,000+ hours in my 6 or 7 logbooks. I pretty much have all the certificates and ratings that I want or need. Well, I might add one or two more before I hang it up. Do I really need an electronic logbook? What benefit would it be to me at this stage of my flying career? There is no way I am going to enter all of my flying in one if I get one.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So I am sitting here with 25,000+ hours in my 6 or 7 logbooks. I pretty much have all the certificates and ratings that I want or need. Well, I might add one or two more before I hang it up. Do I really need an electronic logbook? What benefit would it be to me at this stage of my flying career? There is no way I am going to enter all of my flying in one if I get one.

If I were in your situation I wouldn't care either. Even without that, if I hadn't been keeping one for the past 23+ years, I probably wouldn't be interested en re-entering my flight time, although I might still be interested in stopping my paper recordkeeping, entering my totals into the app, and using it for my future logging.

 

[jaybee]

So I am sitting here with 25,000+ hours in my 6 or 7 logbooks. I pretty much have all the certificates and ratings that I want or need. Well, I might add one or two more before I hang it up. Do I really need an electronic logbook? What benefit would it be to me at this stage of my flying career? There is no way I am going to enter all of my flying in one if I get one.

At your stage probably not very useful other than having a back up record in case your hard books were somehow lost, which unfortunately happened to me in which case thank God I had the digital copy.

For a relative noob I used the digital in several fashions. If a prospective employer showed interest I could forward a digital copy. Most importantly in direct regards to this thread as I was struggling to meet the hour requirements for 135 (any XC hours) and eventually 121 (anything greater than 50nm landing or not) I was able to go back and edit (add columns) without making an absolute mess of hard copy. Also, filling out an IACRA form became a breeze as keeping track of two different categories as well as dual received, night landings, night landings PIC, etc, etc can be a real chore to parse by hand.

 

[ja_user]

My flight book will let you just put in your current totals and start from there.

I'd probably snap some photo's of those logbooks for backup, myself.

 

[EricBe]

That's been the case for me in my self-made eLog before switching full time to MyFlightBook. But doesn't that assume the pilot is only identifying airports he or she has landed at in the Route field and not enroute airports used as waypoints?

To use the example in your blog post, how does MyFlightBook treat KSEA KSFO KSEA? A pilot might legitimately log that as his or her Route whether or not landing at KSFO.

That will absolutely be picked up by the system as a "non-local" cross-country flight (i.e., the base definition; not necessarily meeting any distance threshold). So would KSFO-KOAK-KSFO (to use a clearly < 25nm example).

So it will accrue to your cross-country time if you log the flight time in the cross-country field; it will not if you leave that field empty. If you search for "non-local" flights, then your total time (and PIC, etc.) will include this flight, but it will not be tagged as cross-country time per se; you just know that because it's only flights that left the home airport, all the flights are basic cross-country (i.e., simply left the home airport, no particular distance).

I think that's the right behavior here. If you're working on an ATP rating (no landing required), this is also correct.

Otherwise, if you're just looking for your basic cross-country time, though, you'd want to exclude this. I'd probably just put the fact that you overflew KSFO into the remarks for the flight. I'm literally determining non-local by looking for patterns in the Route field that are other than X, X X, KX X, or X KX. (I.e., "KSFO", "KSFO KSFO", "KSFO SFO", or "SFO KSFO", respectively; any separator between them is fine).