Two planes collide over SF bay

Jim Logajan said:
So their destination airport was comfortably long and wide and being a private field, no other traffic would presumably be in the way or involve controller intervention. Feel free to browse the nearby airports, but I could not find any airports that seem to have all those advantages going for them.
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Travis AFB (KSUU) has every one of those advantages. It's deserted on weekends. Plus, it has a whole lot more emergency equipment, plus arresting gear, not available at a small private airfield. And, the flight home would have passed right over it. In other words, the pilot passed up a perfect emergency landing spot.

Not that controller intervention is all that significant. Declare an emergency, everyone gets out of your way. There were A LOT of options.

You're going to have a really hard time arguing that going home was necessary to service the emergency.
 
willywildes said:
What if they never touched,and the wing just fell off the 210. The spitfire never knew the 210 went down. big A/D for wing cracks. Need more facts. You guys are as bad as the media. All speculators of the worst kind. Just saying.
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Uh, did you read the comment about potential 'substantial damage' to the vertical stab?

Sorry buddy, but the 210's wing didn't 'just fall off'.

And so far no one is denying that there was a midair.

The problem is that, as someone pointed out earlier, the PIC has to make a determination as to the airworthiness of the aircraft. So when a 210 hits your vertical stab, how do you determine the aircraft is truly still airworthy without a thorough visual inspection? Just because you still have control immediately after the smack doesn't mean you are going to in 15 min. Doesn't mean you immediately try to stuff it into the closest airport which might be a 2000' strip, but flying on for 40 min to a private gated community is a bit of a stretch from an aviation safety standpoint. Personally, if I'm ever in a midair and still flying, I'm going where there are plenty of emergency services, regardless of what I'm flying.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Uh, did you read the comment about potential 'substantial damage' to the vertical stab?

Sorry buddy, but the 210's wing didn't 'just fall off'.

And so far no one is denying that there was a midair.

The problem is that, as someone pointed out earlier, the PIC has to make a determination as to the airworthiness of the aircraft. So when a 210 hits your vertical stab, how do you determine the aircraft is truly still airworthy without a thorough visual inspection? Just because you still have control immediately after the smack doesn't mean you are going to in 15 min. Doesn't mean you immediately try to stuff it into the closest airport which might be a 2000' strip, but flying on for 40 min to a private gated community is a bit of a stretch from an aviation safety standpoint. Personally, if I'm ever in a midair and still flying, I'm going where there are plenty of emergency services, regardless of what I'm flying.
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You and me both sir..... I wanna see firetrucks and EMS vehicles lining the runway...:yes:
 
Fearless Tower said:
Uh, did you read the comment about potential 'substantial damage' to the vertical stab?

Sorry buddy, but the 210's wing didn't 'just fall off'.

And so far no one is denying that there was a midair.

The problem is that, as someone pointed out earlier, the PIC has to make a determination as to the airworthiness of the aircraft. So when a 210 hits your vertical stab, how do you determine the aircraft is truly still airworthy without a thorough visual inspection? Just because you still have control immediately after the smack doesn't mean you are going to in 15 min. Doesn't mean you immediately try to stuff it into the closest airport which might be a 2000' strip, but flying on for 40 min to a private gated community is a bit of a stretch from an aviation safety standpoint. Personally, if I'm ever in a midair and still flying, I'm going where there are plenty of emergency services, regardless of what I'm flying.
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So far that is unsubstantiated. It has neither been confirmed nor denied by the other pilot involved, the NTSB, the FAA, the CHP, or the Coast Guard that there was an actual collision or damage to the Hawker. All we have is that "IF something [unspecified] on Facebook is correct" (big if) there was damage to the stab. Hardly seems like conclusive evidence. Nor do you know that the 210's wing fell off (proof?). For all you know could have been spin caused by wake turbulence.

Webtrak seems to suggest there was no collision at all, which would certainly explain why the Hawker simply continued on track without deviating or circling. May not have known buddy (who, according to Webtrak was below and behind him) went down. So let's reserve judgment until the facts come out.
 
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Like I say. Bad as the media. Facts be damed. Dead pilot and family who cares, it's good fodder, Joe Six pack pilots / Philadelphia lawyers. Passing the time. hope it doesn't happen to you, or your loved ones.
 
Not going to speculate I have seen multiple eye witnesses that said they saw the plane come down with one wing missing. None I have seen, have said they collided.only that they were flying close. Potential substantial damage what the hell does that mean. there is damage or isn't. You don't know, And I don't either buddy.
 
Let's not forget why we are discussing this in the first place. It's not to ostrisize anyone, it's so we can learn lessons and be safe. In the end I guess the NTSB will figure it out and meanwhile, let's sharpen our own descision making skills.
 
MAKG1 said:
Travis AFB (KSUU) has every one of those advantages. It's deserted on weekends. Plus, it has a whole lot more emergency equipment, plus arresting gear, not available at a small private airfield. And, the flight home would have passed right over it. In other words, the pilot passed up a perfect emergency landing spot.

Not that controller intervention is all that significant. Declare an emergency, everyone gets out of your way. There were A LOT of options.

You're going to have a really hard time arguing that going home was necessary to service the emergency.
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Travis AFB has arresting gear?
 
kkoran said:
Travis AFB has arresting gear?
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Couldn't find any mention of them on Airnav for KSUU. My copy of WingX states "No Arresting Systems".

But that detail seems unimportant given the length of the runways there. The biggest issue would seem to be the intimidation at landing at a military base unless compelled to. I just found an article about an emergency landing taking place there just a few weeks ago:

http://www.travis.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123403610

It all worked out for the pilot making the landing - but his engine had died and he had no other option - and even then he says he was hesitant. If he had any power at all I bet the pilot in that story would have gone with an alternate. And there is this quote from the end of the article:

"Had he not made contact with RAPCON, security forces would have to respond as if the aircraft was hostile," Wilson said. "His proper communication allowed us to clear the area for him and notify the appropriate agencies."

....

In one sense the decision to land at CA20 has been vindicated by the fact of success, though not by the universe of probable alternate outcomes (assuming there was damage to the Sea Fury at all.)
 
kkoran said:
Travis AFB has arresting gear?
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I guess not. Not something I would normally look for in a small spam can that can stop on its own with no brakes on a 2400 foot runway. I'd imagine a Sea Fury might need more, but those runways are meant for considerably larger jet aircraft like C-5s and KC-135s.
 
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Jim Logajan said:
http://www.travis.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123403610

"Had he not made contact with RAPCON, security forces would have to respond as if the aircraft was hostile," Wilson said. "His proper communication allowed us to clear the area for him and notify the appropriate agencies."
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Wow, things have changed. I hit a bird over the beach in the 80s, and landed backwards(to the east) at Miramar without anything but a transponder on 7700 and they were real nice about it.

I guess now they'll shoot you down before you become a problem on their property. So long USA.
 
I wouldn't take that too seriously. They also reported that an aircraft with a dead engine was given taxi instructions. Someone is an idiot.
 
Things to consider about the decision to take the wounded bird home-

The news media seem to know right away that a collision occured, where it happened, what make, model year of aircraft and how many people on board. How did they know all this? If we are to believe the flight tracks attached here from another forum, both planes were squawking 1200, so likely not talking to ATC. The news media also reports that boat traffic responded right away.

Given the above, the most likely scenario is, Dreadnought's pilot informed ATC on frequency of the accident, watched his friend go in the water, saw the boat traffic respond as well as other planes on frequency and decided to look after his own problem. Really not a "hit and run".

On his decision to continue on to his intended destination, we have already discussed the compelling reasons not to land at the nearest airport, so the question remains as to how safe was that plane? If we are to believe the unsubstantiated rumor that the damage was to the vertical stabilizer, then from the photo below, you can see that he and his wife would have a pretty good view of that damage.

1-a-hawker-sea-fury-tmk20-dreadnought-scott-germain.jpg


Now consider that this PIC unlike most, has intimate knowledge and understanding of just exactly how this plane is built down to the rivet. He also has likely thousands of hours in this type by now and can detect what is and isn't quite right. In addition, being a Reno air race pilot for many years, he may have experience with piloting damaged and malfunctioning planes. Also consider that this airplane was originally built for combat and high speeds. It is considerably more robust than the average Cessna.

Seriously, I think putting it down at Napa, or Concord, or Oakland would just have been a huge waste of time, expense and bother for very likely nothing. I have to give the PIC in this case the benefit of the doubt without any real facts known. I don't think he was trying to hide something, or run away from the scene of an accident and I have to defer to his expert opinion on how safe the airplane actually was. At this point, I believe what he did was reasonable.
 
Another point to consider is, on the route back home, they would pass by a fair number of airports should the aircraft's condition deteriorate.

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and if the elevator came off over an elementary school.:devil: Not that elevators ever fall off Reno race planes. No one knows the best answer and the post collision decisions worked out, but criticism is fair and normal.
 
Dav8or said:
Things to consider about the decision to take the wounded bird home-

The news media seem to know right away that a collision occured, where it happened, what make, model year of aircraft and how many people on board. How did they know all this? If we are to believe the flight tracks attached here from another forum, both planes were squawking 1200, so likely not talking to ATC. The news media also reports that boat traffic responded right away.

Given the above, the most likely scenario is, Dreadnought's pilot informed ATC on frequency of the accident, watched his friend go in the water, saw the boat traffic respond as well as other planes on frequency and decided to look after his own problem. Really not a "hit and run".

On his decision to continue on to his intended destination, we have already discussed the compelling reasons not to land at the nearest airport, so the question remains as to how safe was that plane? If we are to believe the unsubstantiated rumor that the damage was to the vertical stabilizer, then from the photo below, you can see that he and his wife would have a pretty good view of that damage.

1-a-hawker-sea-fury-tmk20-dreadnought-scott-germain.jpg


Now consider that this PIC unlike most, has intimate knowledge and understanding of just exactly how this plane is built down to the rivet. He also has likely thousands of hours in this type by now and can detect what is and isn't quite right. In addition, being a Reno air race pilot for many years, he may have experience with piloting damaged and malfunctioning planes. Also consider that this airplane was originally built for combat and high speeds. It is considerably more robust than the average Cessna.

Seriously, I think putting it down at Napa, or Concord, or Oakland would just have been a huge waste of time, expense and bother for very likely nothing. I have to give the PIC in this case the benefit of the doubt without any real facts known. I don't think he was trying to hide something, or run away from the scene of an accident and I have to defer to his expert opinion on how safe the airplane actually was. At this point, I believe what he did was reasonable.
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According to liveatc the hawker pilot never made a report to atc. Instead it appears witnesses who saw the plane go down called 911 and the california Highway patrol dispatched a plane and the coast Guard deployed patrol boats.
 
frcabot said:
According to liveatc the hawker pilot never made a report to atc. Instead it appears witnesses who saw the plane go down called 911 and the california Highway patrol dispatched a plane and the coast Guard deployed patrol boats.
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There are several frequencies he could have been on and LiveATC is pretty light on coverage.
 
In the bay area it's actually pretty good, I think all the freqs are covered. San Pablo bay would def. have coverage between OAK CTR and NCT.
 
frcabot said:
According to liveatc the hawker pilot never made a report to atc. Instead it appears witnesses who saw the plane go down called 911 and the california Highway patrol dispatched a plane and the coast Guard deployed patrol boats.
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OK, if that is so, how did the media know what exact airplanes were involved and how many people were on them? 911, CHP and witnesses could not possibly know that info. I don't buy it. Just because you can't pull up a recording on a website doesn't convince me. Those websites don't have any obligation to post the whole picture. Does liveatc cover 121.5 as well?
 
They miss reported the number of people on board the two aircraft,said three,it was only two. Reported the wife of 210 pilot was riding in the spitfire not true. Don't know how long after the crash they reported the type of planes. More feelings,and speculation no new facts. Just watched a jetliner disappear and everything reported for a month was not true. Feelings,and speculation,still few facts. But people eat it up. CNN 24-7 don't need the NTSB or FAA go to the internet all the experts you need.
 
Nice Kent some new news, from a person with intimate knowledge of what happened. Friday a preliminary report. Good.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Money can pay for a lot of things, and a lot is lawyers, but it won't necessarily protect your certificate.
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And it can't buy you your life. Once the collision occurred there had to be some air frame damage to the Hawker. At that point not only are you a test pilot but further damage could occur due to a weakening of the air-frame or some other part of the plane that could result in a catastrophic failure sometime in the next 40 minutes.

Also with regard to those that say "he killed his buddy" remember just because he survived does not mean he was the one responsible for the collision.
 
Consider this: You're flying an airplane that weighs about 4 times that of your formation buddy. You decide to pass closely on his left side. As soon as your wing is in front of his, the powerful vortex from your right wing-tip could roll him to the left faster than he could react - toward your aircraft.
 
AdamZ said:
And it can't buy you your life. Once the collision occurred there had to be some air frame damage to the Hawker. At that point not only are you a test pilot but further damage could occur due to a weakening of the air-frame or some other part of the plane that could result in a catastrophic failure sometime in the next 40 minutes.

Also with regard to those that say "he killed his buddy" remember just because he survived does not mean he was the one responsible for the collision.
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Pretty much my take on it.
 
AdamZ said:
At that point not only are you a test pilot but further damage could occur due to a weakening of the air-frame or some other part of the plane that could result in a catastrophic failure sometime in the next 40 minutes.
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He probably is a test pilot, and he probably knows the design and structure of the Sea Fury pretty well.
 
pericynthion said:
He probably is a test pilot, and he probably knows the design and structure of the Sea Fury pretty well.
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Point being is that without a thorough inspection, you have absolutely no idea how bad the damage really is. Could be minor, or the structure could be compromised. No one can make that determination from the cockpit regardless of how well they know the design. Just because the tail is still in place immediately after, doesn't mean it is going to stay that way 30 minutes later.

I have still not heard a compelling reason that continuing to home base was safer than other closer options. I mean he was right next to OAK with huge runways and first class ARFF support. There is no ARFF at Eagles Nest. That is just one example.

The idea that there was better support for the airplane at home base is the same kind of logic that Alaska Airlines dispatch attempted to use with Flight 261.

When an emergency occurs, making decisions based on convenience is an extremely slippery slope. That is really my point in discussing this. For the pilot's sake, I am thankful it worked out for him and his passenger. But I think there is value in discussing this for any of us that could find ourselves facing similar emergencies.
 
I have a sneaking suspicion Frank has a lot most experience and knowledge of this aircraft than those who insist on Monday morning quarterbacking, even if they do have a cool flight suit....:dunno:
 
Some of you are letting your man crushes on the warbird pilot cloud your judgement. Doesn't matter how much building and flying experience he has there is no way to tell what might be damaged and how badly in flight. The extended flight home was of questionable judgement.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Some of you are letting your man crushes on the warbird pilot cloud your judgement. Doesn't matter how much building and flying experience he has there is no way to tell what might be damaged and how badly in flight. The extended flight home was of questionable judgement.
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He's way more than a "warbird pilot" but there's no point arguing with the inexperienced and unknowledgeable.

Man crush - you've got to be kidding. That's the best you can come up with?

This really says it all: You're not a bright individual and your posts prove this out.
 
Some of us disagree on actions of the President of the Unted Staes, regardless of apparent qualifications.
 
flyingriki said:
He's way more than a "warbird pilot" but there's no point arguing with the inexperienced and unknowledgeable.

Man crush - you've got to be kidding. That's the best you can come up with?

This really says it all: You're not a bright individual and your posts prove this out.
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How much experience does he have running over other planes and then flying home? At least one more then most pilots, which is nothing to be proud of, and certainly not enough to know how damaged his plane was.
 
flyingriki said:
I have a sneaking suspicion Frank has a lot most experience and knowledge of this aircraft than those who insist on Monday morning quarterbacking, even if they do have a cool flight suit....:dunno:
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Takes two to play the game. I may be quarterbacking one team, but there are clearly two teams on the field.

I have no doubt the accident pilot is far more experience than I am. I am still looking for a compelling reason why flying 40 min to Eagles Nest was a better alternative. So far other than criticizing me for asking, no one had been able to provide.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I have still not heard a compelling reason that continuing to home base was safer than other closer options.
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I don't have any compelling reasons to offer one way or another. The PIC obviously felt the damage hadn't created a time-critical situation.

Not sure if they did any aerobatics, and if they did, whether they departed for home shortly after doing some and so might have been (still) wearing parachutes. That would (to me) place a different color on their decision to continue flying.

By the way, this appears to be the show they had attended:
http://dreammachines.miramarevents.com/

Listed for "All day" on the event schedule: "Jaw-Dropping Flyovers by Historic Military Aircraft"
 
Some of us remember at Oshkosh in a time gone by, had a flight demo with Frank Sanders in the SeaFury and a Glasair that followed him and got flipped all over the place by the wake turbulence. It was an impressive demo and made you think that following a heavy plane closely was a very poor idea.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Using the info in the Kathryn's Report, http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2014/04/planes-crash-near-san-pablo-bay-and-one.html I used SkyVector to show the direct route from KHAF to CA20, did a quick screen scrape and edited it to insert a red marker where the collision reportedly occurred. See attachment.

Obviously they didn't take the straight route home through Class B but probably were circling under the shelf around the north.

CA20 is 4000 feet long and 100 feet wide. It also has 1200 ft structural overrun on the north and 2200 ft compacted dirt overrun to the south.

So their destination airport was comfortably long and wide and being a private field, no other traffic would presumably be in the way or involve controller intervention. Feel free to browse the nearby airports, but I could not find any airports that seem to have all those advantages going for them. Besides, it takes time in the cockpit to figure out alternates - sometimes it is easier to complete a flight to a known location than inject another variable that is as likely to add to the danger as subtract.

As most have probably experienced, landing at one's home field presents more known quantities than landing at any other field.
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My 1st thought after losing a gear leg on a champ was "Don't Panic" everything is flying just fine, I have lots of fuel, take my time to consider all my options. I circled the feild for probably a good 20 minutes before deciding to land.

If everything seems to be working but you are unsure what the results are going to be. It can be just as bad to make a rush decision to land ASAP as it can be to take your time.

That was 40 minutes of checking the airplane out so that if it failed it failed at an altitude one could bail out at.

Brian
 
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