Twin Navion

Tom-D said:
So you base your total experience on 1 engine, ever think that these might give a good ride for a log time in this aircraft? and there are 2 more to get parts from or change out entirely?

There are enough parts here to salvage and make a bunch of money if some one has the time and effort.
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Yep. It's good that there's an extra plane and two extra engines with the deal. That might make it palatable for someone who really love the marque a lot. Like I said, I'm a fan of Navion but this is going to be one of those 'only a Twin Navion will do' kind of sales because anyone else in this market would surely get a Twin Comanche or even a Duchess.

Having said that, there was a thread on here a bit ago about 'what plane to get for my comm and to build time'? This might be that ideal opportunity to build time and twin time at that rather cheaply.

The performance numbers would have to be seen to be believed. The Navion with one engine is not what you would consider elegant in the air. It's boggy, and there are no gear doors. Now, add another engine, and it's even boggier. The speed and fuel burn numbers are close to the twin Comanche, and given the completely different airframe, it's hard to see how this plane could do anything like 140K on 12GPH. Maybe it's a magic plane, I don't know.

So, I hope he finds a lover of twin Navions, and it sells for a decent price. Most will compare to the other twins on the market, and I think it'll be a tough sell.
 
docmirror said:
Nope, but I know about the O-340 engine. I had one in an EXP years ago, and it was a vibrating SOB. Not to mention every major part on it is unobtanium.

Sorry, I'm sure it's a very nice plane overall. I'm a fan of the whole Navion line, and wouldn't mind owning one. Any Navion, except the O-340 powered version.
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Could not this airplane be upgraded to the Camair O-470 version?
 
Dav8or said:
Could not this airplane be upgraded to the Camair O-470 version?
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It could,, I'd fly it as is, when the 0-340s get where you don't trust them up grade with the Navion factory rebuild.
 
Dav8or said:
Could not this airplane be upgraded to the Camair O-470 version?
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I'm not the right guy to ask, but surely it would have to change standard type certificates. The Camair and the Riley/Temco are on a different type cert. This is not something that could be done on a 337 these days. Maybe an STC would be issued? But, since there is already a standard type cert with that config, I just don't see it happening.

The 340 isn't a bad engine per-se. I found it to be kinda shaky, and I think it was due to the extended crank throws, and/or the longer jugs. It's just so far out of support, the other option is a O-320 with 160HP.
 
docmirror said:
I'm not the right guy to ask, but surely it would have to change standard type certificates. The Camair and the Riley/Temco are on a different type cert. This is not something that could be done on a 337 these days. Maybe an STC would be issued? But, since there is already a standard type cert with that config, I just don't see it happening.

The 340 isn't a bad engine per-se. I found it to be kinda shaky, and I think it was due to the extended crank throws, and/or the longer jugs. It's just so far out of support, the other option is a O-320 with 160HP.
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The Navion Association owns the type certificate.
They can place any engine they see fit to the alternate list.

up to and including the IO-550 / 300 horse.
 
I'm sure they could add any engine they wanted on the TC. The FAA wouldn't have a thing to say about it either. I mean, it's not like they're the regulating agency or anything. AFAIK, changes to the std TC have to be approved. Wonder what it would cost today to have an engine added to the TC? Even one that's proven on the airframe already like the O-470. Then, you get the added fun of infringement on the Camair TC if you just copy what they did. Navion Society doesn't own that TC, it's someone else, and I"m betting he won't just sit there quietly.

Ballpark guess is that it's about $3-5 million invested before the ink is dry on that change. It'd be cheaper to have Lyc recast the O-340 and forge some new cranks.
 
Tom-D said:
The Navion Association owns the type certificate.
They can place any engine they see fit to the alternate list.

up to and including the IO-550 / 300 horse.
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Except we will not. We (the ANS) are not doing any engineering on Twin Navions. To my knowledge the only thing we've done in recent memory is to issue a service bulletin recommending that the nose fork be reinforced (we recommend this to owners of singles, but we don't have own the TC on that so it's just an advisory to our membership).

As far as I know, this one, (SN 55 or so), is *ONLY* eligible to put O-340's on it by the type certificate. There's a provision to retrofit O-340's on the earlier O-320 birds but not vice versa. Putting a large CONT (aka the camairs) is likely to take substantial engineering. The Nacelles are nowhere big enough and the mount attach points probably can't handle it either.

I would not be holding out for the ANS to approve an engine change. If you want to do so on a field approval (if you could get such) have at it. But if you want a Camair, you can probably buy a camair easier.
 
Tom-D said:
123N is the second aircraft or the project. With a lot of work it could be made to fly again.

It will probably go to the re-cycle crusher on Friday.

that is how bad he wants out.
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Oops, missed that there were two aircraft there (thought we just had pictures from different life states). Here's the other one:

http://www.twinnavion.com/d16a/ttn51.htm
 
Tom-D said:
123N is the second aircraft or the project. With a lot of work it could be made to fly again.

It will probably go to the re-cycle crusher on Friday.

that is how bad he wants out.
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Do you have access to it? If the left elevator is in reasonable condition, I'd might be interested in paying you to retrieve it and send it to me.
 
flyingron said:
Do you have access to it? If the left elevator is in reasonable condition, I'd might be interested in paying you to retrieve it and send it to me.
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No, I do not have unrestricted access to either aircraft.

Very interesting web site you gave.

no wonder the props were IRANed in 2008 :)

Curious, why do you want an elevator?
 
WoW !

May 2011 - Offered for sale as part of a package that included TTN-56. Asking $95,000 USD.
July 2013 - Offered for sale. Asking $35,000 USD.


and now he will take what he can get.
 
Tom-D said:
Curious, why do you want an elevator?
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Right after I got my hangar I backed the plane a little too far into the hangar and dinged it. It's airworthy (the mechanic smoothed most of the damage out) but if I could get one that was in better condition, I'd hide the evidence of my stupidity :)
 
flyingron said:
Right after I got my hangar I backed the plane a little too far into the hangar and dinged it. It's airworthy (the mechanic smoothed most of the damage out) but if I could get one that was in better condition, I'd hide the evidence of my stupidity :)
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Understand,,, :)

I'll see what I can do for ya later this week.

you could get the whole thing (A/C) by driving up and hooking up to a trailer and driving home.
 
I suspect you're in the wrong section of the country for that to be practical for me.

He should put an ad on the ANS website/newsletter. If he's a member it's free for six months.
 
I thought it sounded familiar. I snapped a photo of it at Boeing Field in Seattle in October 2006, two months before its nosegear collapse.
 

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Skylane81E said:
If it wasn't on the other side of the country I might play
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Buy the A/C,Pay the months hangar, and the owner will hand you the keys, and you can come get it as you wish.

Or I can deliver the project for expenses. you fly the other one home.
 
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This whole deal can be had for $10,000.

The 4 cranks are worth that.
Each prop is worth 10,000
What are serviceable cylinders for the 340 worth? there are 16 of them or 8 and 2 running engines.

there must be some radios, instruments ???

There are no shortage of Airframe parts, I saw 2 whole hangars filled with them today while I was talking to the Navion Knowledgable one at AWO
 
Tom-D said:
This whole deal can be had for $10,000.

The 4 cranks are worth that.
Each prop is worth 10,000
What are serviceable cylinders for the 340 worth? there are 16 of them or 8 and 2 running engines.

there must be some radios, instruments ???

There are no shortage of Airframe parts, I saw 2 whole hangars filled with them today while I was talking to the Navion Knowledgable one at AWO
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:) Well....
 
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sounds like an opportunity to corner the Twin Navion market! Only to discover you're the only player in the game?
 
If there was a nose gear collapse I seriously recommend die penetrant test of the fork and then if OK, installing the ANS reinforcement kit. While losing the nose gear in the twin isn't as catastrophic as in the single engine, it's not something you'd want to do. The kit is small $ (frankly, you can make your own, it's just a small plate with three holes in it) and takes hardly any time to put on.

Lots of Navion guys in the PNW, other than he Southeast, it's one of our more active areas of the country. Definitely ought to hit up both the national and the local chapter to see if someone wants it. There are guys up there who collect Navions like I collect wine.
 
flyingron said:
If there was a nose gear collapse I seriously recommend die penetrant test of the fork and then if OK, installing the ANS reinforcement kit. While losing the nose gear in the twin isn't as catastrophic as in the single engine, it's not something you'd want to do. The kit is small $ (frankly, you can make your own, it's just a small plate with three holes in it) and takes hardly any time to put on.

Lots of Navion guys in the PNW, other than he Southeast, it's one of our more active areas of the country. Definitely ought to hit up both the national and the local chapter to see if someone wants it. There are guys up there who collect Navions like I collect wine.
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That has all been replaced, and documented, as were the
nacelles, Props, engines, in 2008. Well documented in the logs and bough off by two A&P-IAs and their PMIs from FSDO.

more pictures of the interior
 

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The Twin Navion is sold, deal done,,

He who hesitates :)
 
Tom-D said:
The Twin Navion is sold, deal done,,

He who hesitates :)
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Glad to hear someone stepped up. Hope both planes fly again, and for a long time.
 
I know the point is moot, but I just want to point out that nose gear fork *IS* on the Riley the subject of a mandatory service bulletin "requiring" the inspection/reinforcement. While it's not clear if any have failed that have not been the subject of a previous collapse situation, this one has so I'd really recommend the owner do it. As stated, it's cheap insurance.

I've done mine. I also know I do not have the original fork on mine.
 
flyingron said:
I know the point is moot, but I just want to point out that nose gear fork *IS* on the Riley the subject of a mandatory service bulletin "requiring" the inspection/reinforcement. While it's not clear if any have failed that have not been the subject of a previous collapse situation, this one has so I'd really recommend the owner do it. As stated, it's cheap insurance.

I've done mine. I also know I do not have the original fork on mine.
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All that was done in 2008 rebuild on this aircraft.
The log book set up, and documentation was very well done.
 
SCCutler said:
Glad to hear someone stepped up. Hope both planes fly again, and for a long time.
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I doubt that 123N ever flys again. It is simply too much work for the price they sell for.
 
Tom-D said:
All that was done in 2008 rebuild on this aircraft.
The log book set up, and documentation was very well done.
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I'm surprised if it was. The issue wasn't even called to our attention until July of 2007 and the service bulletin and the doubler weren't available for a couple of more years.
 
flyingron said:
I'm surprised if it was. The issue wasn't even called to our attention until July of 2007 and the service bulletin and the doubler weren't available for a couple of more years.
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The cause of the accident on this aircraft was a nose fork failure. I did not notice in the logs when each repair was dated. But I do remember questioning the owner about it as we went thru the logs.

It could have been part of the 2009/2010/2011/2012 annuals entries.
 
Thanks for the pics though. I've never actually flown in the Riley, only the Camair. I'm always amused with what they do with the hydraulics when they put the throttle quadrant in.
 
flyingron said:
Thanks for the pics though. I've never actually flown in the Riley, only the Camair. I'm always amused with what they do with the hydraulics when they put the throttle quadrant in.
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I have an A&P-IA friend at AWO that he and his wife are the Navion experts (they have a bunch of them in parts) but are not really fond of the twin. They told me the extra weight of the twin on a single's nose strut was not too smart.
They also told me that if any thing inside that console was virtually impossible to fix, with out tearing the whole thing out and putting it on the bench.

This evolution with the Twin Navion was a lesson to me in as much the more I knew the less I liked it.
 
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