Twin Comanche down in Mineral Wells

It depends on weight, etc. But if it landed a quarter mile short like the article said, chances are they put the drag out too early and the plane simply couldn't maintain altitude. They did right by crashing it into the ground controlled rather than slowing down and then Vmc rolling it in. The latter is what kills people, the former more often just kills pride.
 
glad they made it so far....it seems to me that every time I read that the rear passengers were ok but the people in the front had to be brought to the hospital via ambulance, it makes me think that they must be hitting their head pretty damn hard on landing.
 
Pretty sure that's a flight school bird probably from Temple. I had an aircraft based in a nearby hangar two years ago. No telling if it was one of the folks there or renters.
 
Looks like one of the early 4-place Twin Comanches. The airport is a bit less than 1000 ASl, the plane at gross has a single engine service ceiling well above that. However temps around time of accident would have been near 90F. Appears to be a landing phase incident, so reasonable presumption the plane below gross and should have been able to be brought in successfully on one engine. Perhaps problem with developing power on both engines? Perhaps pilot simply didn't configure for single engine properly or quickly enough, with the engines dialed back during landing approach?
 
3 friends on board, glad to hear it was non fatal. Not the way to wake up for work.
 
midcap said:
sorry about your friends......are they going to be ok?
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I don't have any further details than what the news article produced, just had text messages when I woke up from some of the family members and one of the people on board letting me know they had went down.
 
Tyjay30 said:
I don't have any further details than what the news article produced, just had text messages when I woke up from some of the family members and one of the people on board letting me know they had went down.
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oh ok....I hope they are all ok.
 
Starting my Multi training Monday morning in the same type of plane. Prayers to those involved for a speedy recovery.
 
GRG55 said:
Looks like one of the early 4-place Twin Comanches. The airport is a bit less than 1000 ASl, the plane at gross has a single engine service ceiling well above that. However temps around time of accident would have been near 90F. Appears to be a landing phase incident, so reasonable presumption the plane below gross and should have been able to be brought in successfully on one engine. Perhaps problem with developing power on both engines? Perhaps pilot simply didn't configure for single engine properly or quickly enough, with the engines dialed back during landing approach?
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A big problem I see with multi-engine pilots is they will tend to put the drag out too soon when OEI. These planes cannot fly straight and level OEI if you start to put the drag out. Obviously you need to put the gear down at some point, and you probably will need to put the flaps out. However, you also need to use judgement to figure out the best time to do it. I teach my students to come in with a bit of extra energy and keep the drag tucked in until you need it. If you pick your airport correctly, you should have a nice, long runway and a runway overrun shouldn't be a concern and almost certainly is preferable to a crash short. If nothing else, you'll be going much slower and thus less energy.

An example of "land-now-itis" was a 421 in Georgia (or was it Alabama? Pretty sure Georgia) a few years back. Pilot and his family (wife and 5 kids) all died when he lost an engine at night, decided to land RIGHT NOW! from FL200. Picked a 4,000 ft runway and flew a visual approach, put drag out when he normally would. Ended up Vmcing into the ground.

The saddest part was I looked at his location. There was a great airport for an OEI landing in any direction he could've chosen to go, and he could've easily covered the distance doing a normal descent from FL200. He set himself up to fail, and he failed.
 
Nothing good seems to happen in Mineral Wells.

Praying for a speedy recovery.
 
One friend has a broken ankle, separated ankle, broken leg, bruised elbow and possible broken chin and all the bumps and bruises you'd expect. The other has a broken leg and a couple bad gashes on his head from the report I was given. Both are expected to make a full recovery with time.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
A big problem I see with multi-engine pilots is they will tend to put the drag out too soon when OEI. These planes cannot fly straight and level OEI if you start to put the drag out. Obviously you need to put the gear down at some point, and you probably will need to put the flaps out. However, you also need to use judgement to figure out the best time to do it. I teach my students to come in with a bit of extra energy and keep the drag tucked in until you need it. If you pick your airport correctly, you should have a nice, long runway and a runway overrun shouldn't be a concern and almost certainly is preferable to a crash short. If nothing else, you'll be going much slower and thus less energy.

An example of "land-now-itis" was a 421 in Georgia (or was it Alabama? Pretty sure Georgia) a few years back. Pilot and his family (wife and 5 kids) all died when he lost an engine at night, decided to land RIGHT NOW! from FL200. Picked a 4,000 ft runway and flew a visual approach, put drag out when he normally would. Ended up Vmcing into the ground.

The saddest part was I looked at his location. There was a great airport for an OEI landing in any direction he could've chosen to go, and he could've easily covered the distance doing a normal descent from FL200. He set himself up to fail, and he failed.
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I fly the Aztec in a manner somewhat similar to flying a single. In the air I am constantly checking location/direction to closest suitable airport(s), runway orientation, likely wind direction and so forth so I am mentally ready with some sort of idea of what I am going to do if one engine quits, especially when I am over the multiple mountain ranges west of my home airport. Single engine service ceiling isn't enough to keep me above the highest rocks, the valleys run N-S, I am travelling E-W, it's not hard to confuse one valley for another - I want to make that turn with precision and without hesitation while going through the procedures to attempt a restart in that situation.

Your point about adding drag too early is well taken. I tend towards "space shuttle" approaches to make sure I can make the runway if the other engine quits when doing single engine practice, but wonder if I'll have the presence of mind to do that if i am ever presented with a live situation some day.
 
GRG55 said:
I fly the Aztec in a manner somewhat similar to flying a single. In the air I am constantly checking location/direction to closest suitable airport(s), runway orientation, likely wind direction and so forth so I am mentally ready with some sort of idea of what I am going to do if one engine quits, especially when I am over the multiple mountain ranges west of my home airport. Single engine service ceiling isn't enough to keep me above the highest rocks, the valleys run N-S, I am travelling E-W, it's not hard to confuse one valley for another - I want to make that turn with precision and without hesitation while going through the procedures to attempt a restart in that situation.

Your point about adding drag too early is well taken. I tend towards "space shuttle" approaches to make sure I can make the runway if the other engine quits when doing single engine practice, but wonder if I'll have the presence of mind to do that if i am ever presented with a live situation some day.
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When you're flying over the big rocks in a naturally aspirated piston twin (or even some turbocharged pistons, turboprops, and jets) then yes, you definitely have "drift down" considerations and need to look at it similar to a single. That's what I do when over mountains, too. But for the most part east of Denver in a twin that was at or below gross at takeoff, an engine failure in cruise should give you lots of room to decide where to land. Even 50 miles can be crossed pretty quickly. I've specifically failed engines on people 50 miles from the nearest suitable airport (and right on top of a bad airport) to see if they'd make the right choice. They typically do, and it's amazing how quickly those 50 miles get eaten up going through declaring the diversion, planning for the approach, etc.
 
Looking at the N number (7663Y) that's the same airplane that has been in Josh Flowers Youtube Videos. "MrAviation101"
So happy to hear it was non-fatal..speedy recovery to all!

Always frightening when you see a familiar tail number come up in the accident database.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
A big problem I see with multi-engine pilots is they will tend to put the drag out too soon when OEI. These planes cannot fly straight and level OEI if you start to put the drag out. Obviously you need to put the gear down at some point, and you probably will need to put the flaps out. However, you also need to use judgement to figure out the best time to do it. I teach my students to come in with a bit of extra energy and keep the drag tucked in until you need it. If you pick your airport correctly, you should have a nice, long runway and a runway overrun shouldn't be a concern and almost certainly is preferable to a crash short. If nothing else, you'll be going much slower and thus less energy.

An example of "land-now-itis" was a 421 in Georgia (or was it Alabama? Pretty sure Georgia) a few years back. Pilot and his family (wife and 5 kids) all died when he lost an engine at night, decided to land RIGHT NOW! from FL200. Picked a 4,000 ft runway and flew a visual approach, put drag out when he normally would. Ended up Vmcing into the ground.

The saddest part was I looked at his location. There was a great airport for an OEI landing in any direction he could've chosen to go, and he could've easily covered the distance doing a normal descent from FL200. He set himself up to fail, and he failed.
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Demopolis, Alabama. Pilot's name was Fred Teutenberg. He was an acquaintance.
 
RudyP said:
Demopolis, Alabama. Pilot's name was Fred Teutenberg. He was an acquaintance.
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My condolences. That crash still gets to me and I suspect will for some time. I'm sure it gets to you more.
 
Ryanb said:
Looking at the N number (7663Y) that's the same airplane that has been in Josh Flowers Youtube Videos. "MrAviation101"
So happy to hear it was non-fatal..speedy recovery to all!

Always frightening when you see a familiar tail number come up in the accident database.
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holy crap :eek:

That was a really clean plane....hopefully Mr Aviation 101 has a video out about the crash.
 
midcap said:
holy crap :eek:

That was a really clean plane....hopefully Mr Aviation 101 has a video out about the crash.
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I know it, sad deal! :(

I remember the video of the two of them bringing it back to TX not long ago.
 
midcap said:
glad they made it so far....it seems to me that every time I read that the rear passengers were ok but the people in the front had to be brought to the hospital via ambulance, it makes me think that they must be hitting their head pretty damn hard on landing.
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Yes, it seems that way for sure, even with a shoulder belt.

Which is why I'd bring a full face helmet with me... got some funny looks but hey... better safe than sorry.
 
Hope for a rapid and full recovery.
 
One was released from the hospital yesterday, the other has undergone one surgery with another scheduled for the in morning, and a few more at future date. Seems they were coming in to KMWL and lost an engine, declared and on a mile final lost the other engine. Seems most of the damage came from the floorboard caving in onto their ankles. It was the plane used by Josh in his videos, but the owner was not on board.
 
Tyjay30 said:
One was released from the hospital yesterday, the other has undergone one surgery with another scheduled for the in morning, and a few more at future date. Seems they were coming in to KMWL and lost an engine, declared and on a mile final lost the other engine. Seems most of the damage came from the floorboard caving in onto their ankles. It was the plane used by Josh in his videos, but the owner was not on board.
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So they lost both engines while on approach? What are the chances... Fuel exhaustion/starvation?
 
Ryanb said:
So they lost both engines while on approach? What are the chances... Fuel exhaustion/starvation?
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I'm not sure it was total power loss, hazmat responded to clean up a fuel spill.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
An example of "land-now-itis" was a 421 in Georgia (or was it Alabama? Pretty sure Georgia) a few years back. Pilot and his family (wife and 5 kids) all died when he lost an engine at night, decided to land RIGHT NOW! from FL200. Picked a 4,000 ft runway and flew a visual approach, put drag out when he normally would. Ended up Vmcing into the ground.

The saddest part was I looked at his location. There was a great airport for an OEI landing in any direction he could've chosen to go, and he could've easily covered the distance doing a normal descent from FL200. He set himself up to fail, and he failed.
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My ME instructor has a few stories like that. Worst was a pilot who circled down from the flight levels directly over the airport and then decided about a three mile final was what he wanted. Threw the gear out at a mile after burning craptons of altitude away to get down there and Stall/Vmc'd a half mile off the end of the runway. Energy planning is critical OEI but people build bad habits and then fly those habits when stuff goes wrong.
 
Tyjay30 said:
I'm not sure it was total power loss, hazmat responded to clean up a fuel spill.
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Not familiar with how an early Twin Comanche is configured but I can have 100+ gallons of fuel in the two outboard tanks of my Aztec and still run it till the engines quit if I leave it on the inboards till they are empty.

The owner, who presumably is most familiar with the airplane is not on board, and both engines quit on approach. Suggests something may have been overlooked. Could be something as simple as a lack of understanding/familiarity with how an aftermarket auxiliary tank system added to an older airplane works.
 
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With two engines failing, it does suggest some type of fuel mismanagement. That makes somewhat more sense to me than a single engine failure. It is somewhat hard to put the gear down too soon on a Twinkie as extending the landing gear at Vyse only results in about a 200 fpm descent. One would have had to extend the gear way before it would be normal for it cause you to come up short OEI.

I am just relieved that everyone is going to be OK. At least the pilot kept it right side up.
 
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