TSA requires photos of flight schools?

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GeorgeC

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TSA requires photos of renters?

I rented a plane today. Apparently, TSA had visited recently and now requires that the flight school retains photos of all its renters, irrespective of citizenship.

Is this a new thing? Please, no SZ.
 
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No, that is not the case. If the flight school believes that, then it is mistaken.
 
Or the TSA rep who told them that is mistaken -- wouldn't be the first time.

Yes, that would likely be the first time. I have found that people's distaste for the TSA often impels them to make up stories and attribute ridiculous claims to the agency, presumably in an effort to discredit it. I point this out as an observation and not to weigh in on the behavior or mission of that agency.

It is unlikely that a TSA representative with oversight responsibilities for flight schools would either (1) be mistaken about a major policy change or (2) lie about the existence of such a change and then (3) communicate such a change to an individual flight school. Not impossible, of course, but unlikely. Highly probable--indeed, quite common--for people to lie for political reasons.
 
Possibly confused photo ID and verification of citizenship with "lets take a picture of everyone"???

Odd, for sure.
 
Yes, that would likely be the first time. I have found that people's distaste for the TSA often impels them to make up stories and attribute ridiculous claims to the agency, presumably in an effort to discredit it. I point this out as an observation and not to weigh in on the behavior or mission of that agency.

It is unlikely that a TSA representative with oversight responsibilities for flight schools would either (1) be mistaken about a major policy change or (2) lie about the existence of such a change and then (3) communicate such a change to an individual flight school. Not impossible, of course, but unlikely. Highly probable--indeed, quite common--for people to lie for political reasons.
Happens all the time. Plenty of examples on the internet. Not saying that's the case here, just saying it's a possibility.
 
Happens all the time. Plenty of examples on the internet. Not saying that's the case here, just saying it's a possibility.

I don't have time to do that research, but if you can provide an example of a TSA rep telling a flight school, either out of ignorance or as an act of dissimulation, to retain photographs of all its renters, I would be happy to take a look and concede the point to you.
 
Could be, though I did the photo ID and passport thing with them back in December; the photo they took today was a distinct event. In any event, I'll ask them about it; might be worth following up with the agency rep (and/or FSDO?).

Possibly confused photo ID and verification of citizenship with "lets take a picture of everyone"???

Odd, for sure.
 
IIRC, a foreign student who has applied through DHS/TSA to train in the US. The flight school takes a picture of the student when he starts training so DHS can verify that the person receiving training is the same person they processed paper work and approved.

US citizens do not need pictures to rent. Could be a business policy, using TSA as a scapegoat.
 
IIRC, a foreign student who has applied through DHS/TSA to train in the US. The flight school takes a picture of the student when he starts training so DHS can verify that the person receiving training is the same person they processed paper work and approved.

Correct.
 
What possible good does the photo do? Makes it simple for the police in case some one steals an airplane? Or for the school to compare the image on the screen before giving out the keys. ott - another bureaucratic idea that sounds good in a conference room.
 
Could be, though I did the photo ID and passport thing with them back in December; the photo they took today was a distinct event. In any event, I'll ask them about it; might be worth following up with the agency rep (and/or FSDO?).
Not the FSDO's issue. If the school is being told this by a TSA rep, the school should contact the TSA's Office of Security Policy and Industry Engagement, General Aviation Branch.
http://www.tsa.gov/stakeholders/general-aviation
 
I don't have time to do that research, but if you can provide an example of a TSA rep telling a flight school, either out of ignorance or as an act of dissimulation, to retain photographs of all its renters, I would be happy to take a look and concede the point to you.
All I was saying is that this would not be the first time a local TSA person came up with a nonexistent requirement. Whether this particular statement has been made before was not my point -- TSA misinformation and mistakes were. The track record of local TSA personnel misinforming flight schools, instructors, and FBO's on a variety of issues is well documented by AOPA, and you can get more on that from their Governmental Relations office.
 
Straight from the TSA:

http://www.tsa.gov/sites/default/fi..._guidelines_for_general_aviation_airports.pdf

The identity of an individual renting an aircraft should be verified by checking an individual’s government-issued photo ID as well as his or her airman certificate and current medical certificate necessary for that operation.

It not too much of a stretch to see either an overenthusiastic TSA bureaucrat or an misinformed FBO morphing this into needing to retain a copy of a photo as proof that the check was done.

Oh -- and more TSA busybody work:

Airport personnel should strive to establish procedures to identify non-based pilots and aircraft using their facilities. One helpful method would be for airport or FBO operators to establish sign-in/sign-out procedures for all transient operators and associate them with their parked aircraft.

Turns into "the TSA is requiring us to have you sign in and verify your identiy, Mr. Transient."
 
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Straight from the TSA:

http://www.tsa.gov/sites/default/fi..._guidelines_for_general_aviation_airports.pdf



It not too much of a stretch to see either an overenthusiastic TSA bureaucrat or an misinformed FBO morphing this into needing to retain a copy of a photo as proof that the check was done.

No, this rationale cannot be, as they already have proof by retaining a copy of the photo ID. But the original poster made clear that this was a photograph taken in addition to that.
 
No, this rationale cannot be, as they already have proof by retaining a copy of the photo ID.
Which regulation (FAA or TSA) requires retaining a copy of a renter pilot's photo ID? Or even a TSA recommendation to do that? All TSA recommends (at least, in HQ-published guidance) is checking it, not retaining a copy. It's that sort of thinking which results in the situation above -- some low-level TSA person turning a recommendation into a requirement and then requiring even more than was recommended.
 
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Hah! This would be similar to that OWT about some overzealous TSA employee climbing on the outside probes of commuter planes. Absolute hogwash of course! hahhaahahhahhaa. TSA would never overstep their authority by - you know, going through personal legal papers of a passenger, and then informing the other party in the suit about the contents. NEVER HAPPEN, the TSA employs only the finest, smartest, most honest and educated people in the country. None have ever been convicted, or even suspected of crimes.

oh wait.... uh, hmmmm,,,
 
Which regulation (FAA or TSA) requires retaining a copy of a renter pilot's photo ID? Or even a TSA recommendation to do that? All TSA recommends (at least, in HQ-published guidance) is checking it, not retaining a copy. It's that sort of thinking which results in the situation above -- some low-level TSA person turning a recommendation into a requirement and then requiring even more than was recommended.

Huh? I believe you are a making a logical error here.

The hypothesis was that the flight school took the photo in order to have proof of checking the ID.

Good thought, but I pointed out that that cannot be the case, as the original poster noted that this was a "distinct" even from the original checking of the photo ID. If the hypothesis were correct, then a photocopy would have been taken of the photo ID (indeed maybe it was) and there would have been no need for the photograph. Thus, the hypothesis is not correct.

Again I point out that you are unjustly ascribing malfeasance to the TSA, when in fact you are not arguing rigorously.
 
Interesting.

It seems we now have TSA employees trolling pilots' web boards to defend otherwise indefensible actions.

Boy, now there's a nice use of my tax money.
 
Interesting.

It seems we now have TSA employees trolling pilots' web boards to defend otherwise indefensible actions.

Boy, now there's a nice use of my tax money.

Is this a reference to me? If so, let me be perfectly clear. I am not now, nor I have I ever been, an employee of the TSA.

Indeed, I haven't made a single normative claim about the TSA in this thread. I have merely pointed out logical errors, and now I must point out another: that you conjured up a ridiculous premise (that the TSA is reading this thread) from no evidence whatsoever. I would guess for political reasons.

Let me say this. Many of us who have served this nation in and out of uniform are growing increasingly irritated by the irrational, outspoken, and polemical behavior of our fellow citizens, especially here on the Internet where one need not stand face-to-face with another man and defend his opinions. Quiet professionalism only goes so far, and you're going to find it increasingly common to be called out when you say something ridiculous or unfounded.

The TSA is an easy target. I get it. Their employees, especially those with whom we regularly interact, have a rote job that requires no particular skill. We encounter them only at the airport, where they invariably are another inconvenience in an already stressful environment.

But here's something you'd know if you'd ever spent a day in your life in service to your nation: It's one team, one fight, and that green TSA screener is a vital part of a system designed to keep us safe. You may not understand that, you may not appreciate that, but it is the case. Now, I do know the threats we face as a nation. And I am thankful for the work that the TSA does on our behalf.
 
They are just screening for hotties. Then they just put them on a watch list, and anytime they go to fly commercially, they get sidelined for extra groping and a nude search. :)
 
No, that is not the case. If the flight school believes that, then it is mistaken.

Absolutley correct...I get TSA auidit once a year for the operation I run..only need a photo of an ALIEN STUDENT..thats all as far as photos go. They will however try and guilt trip you as to why you dont have pictures of all renters etc.
 
But here's something you'd know if you'd ever spent a day in your life in service to your nation: It's one team, one fight, and that green TSA screener is a vital part of a system designed to keep us safe. You may not understand that, you may not appreciate that, but it is the case. Now, I do know the threats we face as a nation. And I am thankful for the work that the TSA does on our behalf.

1. I'm a vet. never, ever confuse me with anything associated with the dept of homeland security, and all it's machinations including the TSA. It is a facist organization, bent on subjugation of the citizens of the US.

2. The TSA is no more 'vital' than Disneyland. It is actually a drag on our defense resources because it is a sham organization which takes resources from other suitable defensive methods.

3. This is strictly opinion, but I can go back it up with stats if needed. The US federal govt is a greater risk to this nation than all the terrorist organizations around the world.
 
I emailed the TSA rep for clarification.
 
that green TSA screener is a vital part of a system designed to keep us safe.

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The TSA hasn't done ANYTHING to keep anyone safe. Nor has the DHS, or the USSS with their massive TFRs.
 
Interesting.

It seems we now have TSA employees trolling pilots' web boards to defend otherwise indefensible actions.

Boy, now there's a nice use of my tax money.

No kidding. What's even more amusing is that someone thinks that it will actually convince anyone the TSA is useful.

It will be a great day for this country if they are finally shut down.
 
1. I'm a vet. never, ever confuse me with anything associated with the dept of homeland security, and all it's machinations including the TSA. It is a facist organization, bent on subjugation of the citizens of the US.

2. The TSA is no more 'vital' than Disneyland. It is actually a drag on our defense resources because it is a sham organization which takes resources from other suitable defensive methods.

3. This is strictly opinion, but I can go back it up with stats if needed. The US federal govt is a greater risk to this nation than all the terrorist organizations around the world.

I couldn't agree more on all three points...especially the third.
 
Hey, that looks like you sitting at the controls of a Duke. Nice! :yes:
 
3. This is strictly opinion, but I can go back it up with stats if needed. The US federal govt is a greater risk to this nation than all the terrorist organizations around the world.

So one can see why we get frustrated when we have to endure comments like this, which are both inflammatory and obviously factually wrong.

You need to get out from behind the keyboard, do some traveling, see how the rest of the world lives, and develop a little appreciation for how good you've got it here. And if you think that the threat to all of us from radical Islamists no longer exists, you are very, very wrong.
 
I'm convinced anyone that defends the TSA need to have their medical examined and possibly revoked. They do absolutely zero.
 
I'm convinced anyone that defends the TSA need to have their medical examined and possibly revoked. They do absolutely zero.

Well, I defend the TSA. I don't see why that policy view entails that I should "have [my] medical examined". In fact, while I cannot be sure of this, I am confident that I am in better physical and mental shape than you.

And unlike you, I don't say that people who disagree with me are idiots or have medical problems. I say that they are wrong, and then I give sound arguments to back up my views. Sound arguments consist of true premises and valid reasoning.

Big Boy Rules apply nowadays, friends, and if you're going to spout irrational polemic you're going to get called out on it.
 
A not so gentle reminder that personal attacks are not permitted and that discussions of politics belong in Spin Zone.

That is all.
 
So one can see why we get frustrated when we have to endure comments like this, which are both inflammatory and obviously factually wrong.

You need to get out from behind the keyboard, do some traveling, see how the rest of the world lives, and develop a little appreciation for how good you've got it here. And if you think that the threat to all of us from radical Islamists no longer exists, you are very, very wrong.

Congrats Tom, this post entitles you to entry in to a very exclusive club! Welcome to ignore, and - well, buh-bye!

Oh, and you don't have to 'endure' anything from me. I strongly encourage you to put me on ignore. It's in your user CP.

In closing, let me leave you with a list. It's a fun list, that others can add too if they wish: Amer-Indian war. Trail of tears. Civil war. Internment. Waco siege. Ruby ridge. These are just off the top of my head. There's a lot more.
 
Well, I defend the TSA. I don't see why that policy view entails that I should "have [my] medical examined". In fact, while I cannot be sure of this, I am confident that I am in better physical and mental shape than you.

And unlike you, I don't say that people who disagree with me are idiots or have medical problems. I say that they are wrong, and then I give sound arguments to back up my views. Sound arguments consist of true premises and valid reasoning.

Big Boy Rules apply nowadays, friends, and if you're going to spout irrational polemic you're going to get called out on it.

You mean that sound argument you've got where they've stopped exactly 0 terrorists? Oh yeah use that one. :lol:
 
The TSA is a flawed concept.

On 9/11 4 flights were tragically hijacked. 4 on one day out of how many tens of thousands each day? And that's the worst we've ever seen.

Your odds of falling victim to terrorism in the skies is incredibly low to start with. So low that right here I question the need for the extra post 9/11 security measures.

But there have been attempts at blowing up aircraft since then haven't there? Yeah and passengers and crew on the airplane noticed suspicious activity and stopped them all on their own without the TSA.

So for all the cost, the indignity, the traumatization of children and the elderly, and the general loss of freedom are we getting anything to make it worthwhile? Sorry, I don't see it.
 
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