TSA mulls a plan to eliminate security checkpoints at 150 smaller airports

[denverpilot]

Here. I normally won’t talk about real security problems but I personally know about this and know the Federal radio engineer who has called the idiots and told them this multiple times...they’ve had plenty of warning to fix it.

Their very expensive radio system at DEN hasn’t had security turned on or configured in over a decade since it was installed.

I won’t go into the details but suffice it to say even a terrorist could use it to do a whole lot of bad things with a couple of $300 radios. On their very own talk group.

They’re morons.

 

[denverpilot]

Its actually midwestPA24, I'm a Comanche driver.

Actually a resident of rural Iowa currently, although I grew up in rural Mississippi. Maybe I am a little sensitive about it. I just get tired of how the media and others sometimes portray rural America, especially the South, as some type of lower class.

Moving on...

Ahhh. I see.

I like Southerners. I chuckle at the whole comedy bit that Foxworthy did years ago about how even a highly educated Southerner will come off as sounding dumb to Yankees. It’s so true.

If you can’t get over accents, you’ll think some guy who is smart enough to buy your house with cash and not even blink an eye doing it, is dumb, and you’ll get handed your butt in business with certain Southerners. And the non-wealthy Southerners still have a whole lot more common sense about them, generally, than the twits we have moving here from California.

And I say that knowing a lot of smart people from California. Many on this board. I think they’re literally exporting the dumb ones economically. They can’t afford to stay, so they come here.

Often they’re not only dumb, they’re attracted here for the pot. LOL. Talking to one of them is usually quite the “experience”.

Hey! Maybe that’s who TSA hired to install their hundred thousand dollar radio system capable of encryption and security that they didn’t bother turning on at DEN! LOL.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Their very expensive radio system at DEN hasn’t had security turned on or configured in over a decade since it was installed.

Interesting, especially since the corralled in areas at DEN for security lines appear to be very dangerous in terms of potential attack. There are relatively narrow walkways above these that could be used to wreak real havoc on those waiting in the lines below. I find that setup sort of scary to go through.

 

[SkyDog58]

Oh come on. How bad could it possibly be?

 

[denverpilot]

Interesting, especially since the corralled in areas at DEN for security lines appear to be very dangerous in terms of potential attack. There are relatively narrow walkways above these that could be used to wreak real havoc on those waiting in the lines below. I find that setup sort of scary to go through.

Oh definitely. The cattle pen area of the main terminal for waiting to get through “security” is a very vulnerable place in that airport. The walkways are not that narrow, though. They just look that way because the building / tent is huge.

 

[3393RP]

You are still wrong..... I never read the article at all. And you have not addressed the bulkhead either. There is no hardening other than the door. Just lightweight honeycomb structure behind the pilots.

No passenger dogpile required when a backpack full of TATP or HMTD turns the hull into a descending debris pile from 26k ft. Hate of TSA and ignorance of the bigger threat picture show just how ignorant people are and how soon they have forgotten history.

And as I said, why would someone bother bringing down an RJ when without fear of detection they could walk into any crowd situation with a much bigger bomb and kill hundreds, injure hundreds more.

A single small airliner is nothing. That descending debris pile wouldn't modify my behavior one bit.

 

[FlyingElvii]

Ahhh. I see.

I like Southerners. I chuckle at the whole comedy bit that Foxworthy did years ago about how even a highly educated Southerner will come off as sounding dumb to Yankees. It’s so true. LOL.

I made a whole bunch of money in my younger days using a thick Indiana drawl when dealing with DC, NYC, and west coast “sharks”, right up until it came time to negotiate the price. Many of those people have huge egos, look down their noses at anyone from flyover land, and thought they were going to roll the hick on a deal. They walked in completely unprepared for negotiation. The first time I saw my mentor play them like a Kentucky fiddle, I laughed for days. Guy retired to raise multi-million dollar race horses outside Lexington.

 

[Kritchlow]

This entire conversation is idiotic imo. Does the TSA have its faults? Absolutely.

That said, if we had zero security do you really think the bad guys wouldn’t try to bring down an airliner?? Many of you advocate ZERO security. I’m not sure most know what that actually means. As in walking from your car to the ramp and getting on any aircraft on the ramp from the jet bridge staircase ..??

You really don’t think the bad guys would have tried again??

As far as blowing people up in a crowded area, that is second class for the extremists.
They want the glory of bringing down an airliner, not blowing up the ticket counter line.

 

[denverpilot]

That said, if we had zero security do you really think the bad guys wouldn’t try to bring down an airliner?? Many of you advocate ZERO security.

Personally, I advocate whatever security the airlines and their customers want to pay for. Not billions a year for fake security and an entirely new cabinet level position of government to administrate it.

If people have to pay cash up front for their “security” and not via hidden billion dollar loans, they might even pay attention to which politicians make sure to **** off half the planet and hang them in the public square.

But either way, it never should have been the government’s job to secure a private transportation business’ vehicles or the place you hop on them.

Sure, post some real deputized cops. That’s fine. Even a more active Air Marshal System. But don’t provide airlines with fake federal cops in blueberry suits who don’t even have arrest authority. Let them hire their own rent a cops for the checkpoints.

The entire idea of government checkpoints for travel has a whole bunch of serious legal problems with it. Should have always been the airline’s responsibility to secure their stuff.

Can even have competing airlines with levels of security that the customer wants. Everything from “screw it, we’re going to Vegas”, on up to “full strip search and anal cavity probe”. Whatever makes their particular customer base feel the most happy.

Socializing constitutionally questionable rent-a-cops and putting a massively expensive and useless bureaucracy over it, has always been ridiculous.

Make travel hideously expensive for Americans and maybe they’ll start to have second thoughts about being the world’s military police force, too. But that would just be a bonus side effect.

The key part here also is that any deputized officers at an airport answer to an elected official, at best one layer away to an appointed one. Not a ten layer deep appointed bureaucracy in DC. Local. That way if they’re hiring scumbags like the perverts at DEN, the local politicians get directly politically harmed, and instant feedback loop.

Same thing with the rent-a-cops... hire the wrong people or ineffective ones, airline goes bankrupt when they screw it up.

Good motivations to get it right, effective, and cost conscious, all built in.

 

[3393RP]

As far as blowing people up in a crowded area, that is second class for the extremists.

They want the glory of bringing down an airliner, not blowing up the ticket counter line.

The fact that since 2001 the former having occurred many times more often than the latter would seem to disprove your statement convincingly.

 

[Rushie]

This entire conversation is idiotic imo. Does the TSA have its faults? Absolutely.

That said, if we had zero security do you really think the bad guys wouldn’t try to bring down an airliner?? Many of you advocate ZERO security. I’m not sure most know what that actually means. As in walking from your car to the ramp and getting on any aircraft on the ramp from the jet bridge staircase ..??

You really don’t think the bad guys would have tried again??

As far as blowing people up in a crowded area, that is second class for the extremists.
They want the glory of bringing down an airliner, not blowing up the ticket counter line.

I don't see anyone here advocating zero security for airlines unless I missed it. They might be advocating zero government run security but that's not the same thing.

We've always had zero security in much of GA and still do. I can walk to my plane carrying my bag full of guns and nobody blinks. Or drive my car to my plane's tie down spot and load all my long gun cases and nobody cares. Or load all my naughty stuff into my plane in its hangar. Or on my private grass strip. Of course my bugsmasher may not have brought down the WTC but to this day, someone can pack a bugsmasher or for that matter a private jet full of the explosive of your choice and fly it into a school or a shopping mall or a concert hall or a ball game. The entire TSA airport security circus does absolutely nothing to stop that scenario.

The truth is we cannot eliminate all risk unless we completely strip ourselves of all freedom to travel anywhere in any mode of transportation or to own anything more dangerous than a toothpick.

And even then the terrorists will find a way.

 

[Kritchlow]

Personally, I advocate whatever security the airlines and their customers want to pay for. Not billions a year for fake security and an entirely new cabinet level position of government to administrate it.

If people have to pay cash up front for their “security” and not via hidden billion dollar loans, they might even pay attention to which politicians make sure to **** off half the planet and hang them in the public square.

But either way, it never should have been the government’s job to secure a private transportation business’ vehicles or the place you hop on them.

Sure, post some real deputized cops. That’s fine. Even a more active Air Marshal System. But don’t provide airlines with fake federal cops in blueberry suits who don’t even have arrest authority. Let them hire their own rent a cops for the checkpoints.

The entire idea of government checkpoints for travel has a whole bunch of serious legal problems with it. Should have always been the airline’s responsibility to secure their stuff.

Can even have competing airlines with levels of security that the customer wants. Everything from “screw it, we’re going to Vegas”, on up to “full strip search and anal cavity probe”. Whatever makes their particular customer base feel the most happy.

Socializing constitutionally questionable rent-a-cops and putting a massively expensive and useless bureaucracy over it, has always been ridiculous.

Make travel hideously expensive for Americans and maybe they’ll start to have second thoughts about being the world’s military police force, too. But that would just be a bonus side effect.

The key part here also is that any deputized officers at an airport answer to an elected official, at best one layer away to an appointed one. Not a ten layer deep appointed bureaucracy in DC. Local. That way if they’re hiring scumbags like the perverts at DEN, the local politicians get directly politically harmed, and instant feedback loop.

Same thing with the rent-a-cops... hire the wrong people or ineffective ones, airline goes bankrupt when they screw it up.

Good motivations to get it right, effective, and cost conscious, all built in.

It just would not be possible to have different l

I don't see anyone here advocating zero security for airlines unless I missed it. They might be advocating zero government run security but that's not the same thing.

We've always had zero security in much of GA and still do. I can walk to my plane carrying my bag full of guns and nobody blinks. Or drive my car to my plane's tie down spot and load all my long gun cases and nobody cares. Or load all my naughty stuff into my plane in its hangar. Or on my private grass strip. Of course my bugsmasher may not have brought down the WTC but to this day, someone can pack a bugsmasher or for that matter a private jet full of the explosive of your choice and fly it into a school or a shopping mall or a concert hall or a ball game. The entire TSA airport security circus does absolutely nothing to stop that scenario.

The truth is we cannot eliminate all risk unless we completely strip ourselves of all freedom to travel anywhere in any mode of transportation or to own anything more dangerous than a toothpick.

And even then the terrorists will find a way.

perhaps not in this thread, but in similar past threads many have said zero security.

 

[denverpilot]

It just would not be possible to have different l

That would be up to the airlines and their passengers and what they’re willing to pay for a ticket.

 

[Kritchlow]

That would be up to the airlines and their passengers and what they’re willing to pay for a ticket.

The passengers could not intermingle within the sterile area. It would be impossible.

 

[Kritchlow]

Not sure how that post was partially posted, but my last post explains what I meant.

 

[denverpilot]

The passengers could not intermingle within the sterile area. It would be impossible.

That would be a problem easily solved by the drywall one “secure” airline feels like paying for to protect their higher paying “false sense of security” customers who will just be blown up by a truck outside at the curb anyway.

 

[weilke]

Over this past weekend, 74 people got shot and 12 died in Chicago. While some of the decedents where undoubtedly bad actors themselves, a number of the terrorist attacks involved shootings of uninvolved teenagers gathered for late night block parties.

Meanwhile some fat chick in a blue uniform sitting in an office chair at ATLs E terminal checkpoint was screaming at some 80+ year old foreign visitor who wasn't able to raise his arms above his head as quickly as she wanted him to.

 

[Kritchlow]

That would be a problem easily solved by the drywall one “secure” airline feels like paying for to protect their higher paying “false sense of security” customers who will just be blown up by a truck outside at the curb anyway.

I maintain that partitioning off numerous sections of the various concourses would not be practical.
Then a flight cancels and they put them on another airline....

 

[SkyDog58]

I made a whole bunch of money in my younger days using a thick Indiana drawl when dealing with DC, NYC, and west coast “sharks”, right up until it came time to negotiate the price. Many of those people have huge egos, look down their noses at anyone from flyover land, and thought they were going to roll the hick on a deal. They walked in completely unprepared for negotiation. The first time I saw my mentor play them like a Kentucky fiddle, I laughed for days. Guy retired to raise multi-million dollar race horses outside Lexington.

I was born, grew up, and spent 40 of my 60 years in Indiana and have never heard an Indiana drawl, let alone a thick one. If we ever meet, you will have to demonstrate.

 

[Kritchlow]

T

That would be a problem easily solved by the drywall one “secure” airline feels like paying for to protect their higher paying “false sense of security” customers who will just be blown up by a truck outside at the curb anyway.

Plus all the gate changes...

 

[Fearless Tower]

Interesting, especially since the corralled in areas at DEN for security lines appear to be very dangerous in terms of potential attack. There are relatively narrow walkways above these that could be used to wreak real havoc on those waiting in the lines below. I find that setup sort of scary to go through.

It used to be even worse at DEN. When they first put the TSA screening area in, the area immediately beyond screening was exposed to the unprotected walkways above.

Absolutely ridiculous.

With the right coordination and timing, you could have dropped a weapon into the secure area from the overhang.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Meanwhile some fat chick in a blue uniform sitting in an office chair at ATLs E terminal checkpoint was screaming at some 80+ year old foreign visitor who wasn't able to raise his arms above his head as quickly as she wanted him to.

‘Merica’ where if they don’t understand English, just say it louder!

 

[denverpilot]

I maintain that partitioning off numerous sections of the various concourses would not be practical.
Then a flight cancels and they put them on another airline....

Paying billions for ineffective TSA isn’t practical either. Your point? It’s the industry’s problem, not the country’s problem.

 

[FlyingElvii]

I was born, grew up, and spent 40 of my 60 years in Indiana and have never heard an Indiana drawl, let alone a thick one. If we ever meet, you will have to demonstrate.

In Southern Indiana, we call it a "Kentucky Drawl".

 

[Kritchlow]

Paying billions for ineffective TSA isn’t practical either. Your point? It’s the industry’s problem, not the country’s problem.

Respectfully disagree. There needs to be a standard.
Do you think ILS minimums should be set by the airline by customer demand, or should the Feds regulate that? What about maintenance? Should the traveling public be able to travel on a cheap airline because they don’t do maintenance? How would the traveling public even know which airline opted to skip the last C check?
Should the airlines offer lower fares if the market will bear student pilots in the cockpit, or should the Federal Government step in there?

I could go on and on....

 

[SkyDog58]

In Southern Indiana, we call it a "Kentucky Drawl".

Yeah, you are right about that. In the southern part of the state, there is a bit of Kentuckian in how many folks talk. Where in Indiana are you from? I was born in Indy but grew up around Fortville and Pendleton if you know where they are.

 

[denverpilot]

Respectfully disagree. There needs to be a standard.
Do you think ILS minimums should be set by the airline by customer demand, or should the Feds regulate that? What about maintenance? Should the traveling public be able to travel on a cheap airline because they don’t do maintenance? How would the traveling public even know which airline opted to skip the last C check?
Should the airlines offer lower fares if the market will bear student pilots in the cockpit, or should the Federal Government step in there?

I could go on and on....

Okay so you made my point. Have the Feds *regulate the standard* and the requirements for people who do it, not hire the people to do it.

You need a Fed on the airplane in the jumpseat to fly an ILS? No.

 

[Kritchlow]

Okay so you made my point. Have the Feds *regulate the standard* and the requirements for people who do it, not hire the people to do it.

You need a Fed on the airplane in the jumpseat to fly an ILS? No.

Not sure I understand what you’re saying. I’ll have a bourbon and a cigar and mull it over...

 

[denverpilot]

Not sure I understand what you’re saying. I’ll have a bourbon and a cigar and mull it over...

Rent-A-Cops that meet a Federal standard paid for by the airlines instead of Federal hiring of people to do the airline’s “security” jobs.

Feds regulate, airlines buy approved security people with whatever required training is necessary and approved equipment.

Not socialize the cost to everyone in the country and have a multi-billion dollar taxpayer funded security system.

Let the tickets pay for those billions. Or whatever price it actually costs when there’s competition for the jobs.

 

[Kritchlow]

Rent-A-Cops that meet a Federal standard paid for by the airlines instead of Federal hiring of people to do the airline’s “security” jobs.

Feds regulate, airlines buy approved security people with whatever required training is necessary and approved equipment.

Not socialize the cost to everyone in the country and have a multi-billion dollar taxpayer funded security system.

Let the tickets pay for those billions. Or whatever price it actually costs when there’s competition for the jobs.

I’ll read this in a bit. I’m TRULY having a bourbon and a cigar...

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

That said, if we had zero security do you really think the bad guys wouldn’t try to bring down an airliner??

The strawman fallacy. Most of the posters are saying either

1. Go back to pre-2001 levels of security, or,
2. Privatize it and let the airlines decide.

Neither of those is zero security.

 

[Kritchlow]

The strawman fallacy. Most of the posters are saying either

1. Go back to pre-2001 levels of security, or,
2. Privatize it and let the airlines decide.

Neither of those is zero security.

How do you let the airlines decide?

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Do you think ILS minimums should be set by the airline by customer demand, or should the Feds regulate that? What about maintenance? Should the traveling public be able to travel on a cheap airline because they don’t do maintenance? How would the traveling public even know which airline opted to skip the last C check?
Should the airlines offer lower fares if the market will bear student pilots in the cockpit, or should the Federal Government step in there?

Interesting to think about how to privatize even more of this and decrease the footprint of federal bureaucracies, which are not very responsive or efficient beasts.

Some of these seem like there is a legitimate police function involved. For example, ILS minima. It seems plausible that these being set too low endangers innocent people on the ground.

Maintenance though seems like the primary risk is born by the airline and passengers. In a truly free market it seems like there would firstly be a reputational factor at stake. Presently passengers probably figure all airlines are equally safe because they are all government approved. But if that were not the case people might pay more attention to airline reputation. Indeed, there might evolve things like Consumer Reports for airline safety that people pay attention to.

Some ideas to think about as alternatives to having the government involved, which always implies a group willing to use violence to enforce its rules. We just tend to take the Federalization of the airways for granted, since it has been around so long, but I think it is interesting to contemplate some alternatives.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

How do you let the airlines decide?

Ah, we’ve been through that before I believe, at some length. If you like I can dig up references to the posts, if you are interested.

I must confess, however, the fact that this starts again with a strawman fallacy doesn’t make me hopeful that there really is interest there. Though I suppose I could be persuaded if we agree to avoid that type of fallacy as well others such as the ad hominem.

 

[Kritchlow]

Interesting to think about how to privatize even more of this and decrease the footprint of federal bureaucracies, which are not very responsive or efficient beasts.

Some of these seem like there is a legitimate police function involved. For example, ILS minima. It seems plausible that these being set too low endangers innocent people on the ground.

Maintenance though seems like the primary risk is born by the airline and passengers. In a truly free market it seems like there would firstly be a reputational factor at stake. Presently passengers probably figure all airlines are equally safe because they are all government approved. But if that were not the case people might pay more attention to airline reputation. Indeed, there might evolve things like Consumer Reports for airline safety that people pay attention to.

Some ideas to think about as alternatives to having the government involved, which always implies a group willing to use violence to enforce its rules. We just tend to take the Federalization of the airways for granted, since it has been around so long, but I think it is interesting to contemplate some alternatives.

And just how does an airline achieve a poor maintenance record without oversight? Three crashes in one year killing 600 people?? Is that acceptable? Then who investigates and places blame if not the government?

 

[Kritchlow]

Ah, we’ve been through that before I believe, at some length. If you like I can dig up references to the posts, if you are interested.

I must confess, however, the fact that this starts again with a strawman fallacy doesn’t make me hopeful that there really is interest there though.

Well Denver suggested walking off different entrances for different airlines. That does not take into account numerous shared gates and gate changes.

Yes, please dig them up. I’m open to change my mind if anyone can show me a practical way it can be done.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

And just how does an airline achieve a poor maintenance record without oversight? Three crashes in one year killing 600 people?? Is that acceptable? Then who investigates and places blame if not the government?

What if the government just said, airlines you are now responsible for all damages caused by failures of your planes - no limits on liability. Work it out with your insurers.

In this day and age airplane crashes are big news, reported within minutes. I imagine the economic impact of even a single crash would be felt almost immediately. Since these crashes are of great interest, reporters and potentially independent rating agencies would be extremely interested in their frequency and causes. The economic incentives to be a safe airline would be enormous given the general public’s fears.

It is possible that such a system, due to the speed of market reactions, would effectively “police” safety much more quickly and effectively than the Federal bureaucracy we presently have, making travel overall safer.

 

[denverpilot]

How do you let the airlines decide?

By deciding how many airplanes they want to risk losing and how many civil suits they want to settle, both passengers and ground bystanders.

Maybe see what their liability insurance will cost at Lloyd’s of London doing their own security, if they’d rather an actuary do the numbers for them?

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Yes, please dig them up. I’m open to change my mind if anyone can show me a practical way it can be done.

Fair enough. I will try and dig them out tomorrow and try and figure out a good first step for a proposal to discuss.

In the interim, back to studying for the FOI written.

 

[Kritchlow]

What if the government just said, airlines you are now responsible for all damages caused by failures of your planes - no limits on liability. Work it out with your insurers.

In this day and age airplane crashes are big news, reported within minutes. I imagine the economic impact of even a single crash would be felt almost immediately. Since these crashes are of great interest, reporters and potentially independent rating agencies would be extremely interested in their frequency and causes. The economic incentives to be a safe airline would be enormous given the general public’s fears.

It is possible that such a system, due to the speed of market reactions, would effectively “police” safety much more quickly and effectively than the Federal bureaucracy we presently have, making travel overall safer.

No. Airplanes will continue to crash. Now if the same airline has multiple crashes in a short period of time as refeeenced to other airlines, that’s a different story. Still hundreds dead before the market kicks in.
So, that may address maintenance, but what about security?