TSA Hits the Road

RJM62 said:
If you really want to know when all this police-state stuff began, it was in 1913.

-Rich
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Rich,

Please explain so I can understand what you mean.

Thanks,
Terry
 
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steingar said:
The SCOTUS has overturned fruit of the vine, saying evidence from an improperly conducted search of private property can be used in a court of law. They've backed intrusion into private property sans notice, i.e. no knock warrants. They've backed the TSA's warrantless searches of your person which are similarly devoid of probable cause. Your fourth amendment rights don't exist at the border or anything the government claims is a border. They've even backed warrantless searches of private property similarly devoid of probable cause to detect drivers under the influence of mind altering substances (primarily ethanol). The majority opinion on that one is nearly laughable, with the esteemed justices saying it is likely unconstitutional but necessary for public order, or some such.
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What is SCOTUS ?

Terry
 
fgcason said:
Technically it's in the Bill of Rights, not the Constitution proper.
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"Bill of Rights" is the colloquial name for the first 10 amendments to the Constitution. They are part of the Constitution, that's why they are called amendments.

fgcason said:
Therefore it's a supporting document (Bill of Rights), not the main document (Constitution) itself.
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Amendments to a document are not "supporting documents". This argument is bizarre.

fgcason said:
If you read the Bill of Rights that further restricts the powers of the Government beyond the limitations of the Constitution
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The Bill of Rights cannot "further restrict" the government, because the government does not have any powers that are not specifically granted to it. The enumeration of rights in the first 10 amendments does not mean that those rights were not present originally.
 
fgcason said:
Relax. Breathe.
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You too!

That's a reference, not something against you or anyone else specifically.
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I don't see how your reference addresses my question.

It's the mess that would have to be dealt with if the people descend on the powers that be. The first thing out of their mouth would be "it's not in the constitution, it's in the bill of rights, go back to your shacks and be good little citizen peasants." It's much more effective to walk in and say "Amendment IV to the US Constitution. Explain yourselves right now or get out."
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Who's walking in anywhere? This is a message board, not a court. When it comes to arguing Constitutional law in the latter, I rely on lawyers to get the terminology right.
 
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Palmpilot said:
You too!



I don't see how your reference addresses my question.



Who's walking in anywhere? This is a message board, not a court. When it comes to arguing Constitutional law in the latter, I rely on lawyers to get the terminology right.
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This thread is talking about the Over-reaching of the TSA.

Please don't start an argument over definitions and stick to the subject.

Thanks,

Terry :)
 
Terry said:
Rich,

Please explain so I can understand what you mean.

Thanks,
Terry
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The 16th Amendment, which authorized taxing income without apportionment among the states, was ratified in 1913.

The Revenue Act of 1913 was enacted shortly thereafter, which reinstated the income tax, which had previously been ruled unconstitutional.

Without the income tax, the federal government could not have grown to its present size, nor would we have so many unnecessary and increasingly intrusive federal powers, agencies, programs, and personnel.

-Rich
 
If a TSA officer who is not a law enforcement officer wants to search your vehicle on the road, are you required to get out and unlock it for them? If instead, you just drive off, what law have you violated, if any?
 
We are at war.

Travel is a privilege, not a right.

Remember 9-11

We are trying to catch terrorists. Torture is justified in this case. Besides, it's not really torture.

We are acting out of an abundance of caution.

If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about.


There. Does everyone feel better now?
 
Palmpilot said:
If a TSA officer who is not a law enforcement officer wants to search your vehicle on the road, are you required to get out and unlock it for them? If instead, you just drive off, what law have you violated, if any?
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My explanation would be that the person looked like a Police impersonator, and the real Police stopped me before I could get in touch with them about the potential terrorist.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
We are at war.

Travel is a privilege, not a right.

Remember 9-11

We are trying to catch terrorists. Torture is justified in this case. Besides, it's not really torture.

We are acting out of an abundance of caution.

If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about.


There. Does everyone feel better now?
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While true, it seems it would make more sense to train and graduate more police officers to handle our roads. I seriously doubt a TSO has any training for environments as dynamic and inherently dangerous as a highway, let alone some members of the motoring public.
 
Muller%20with%20Heydrich.jpg
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
We are at war.

Travel is a privilege, not a right.

Remember 9-11

We are trying to catch terrorists. Torture is justified in this case. Besides, it's not really torture.

We are acting out of an abundance of caution.

If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about.


There. Does everyone feel better now?
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You forgot the children. It's for the children.
 
If the police can't search your vehicle without a warrant, why would a TSA officer be so able? If I'm legally armed, I have to disclose that to a peace officer when they ask to see my DL; don't see where Texas law requires that revelation to a transportation officer. At some point I would state they don't have my permission to search the vehicle or me and ask to speak to my attorney since I don't know what my legal rights are in this circumstance, but I would not resist.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
If the police can't search your vehicle without a warrant, why would a TSA officer be so able? If I'm legally armed, I have to disclose that to a peace officer when they ask to see my DL; don't see where Texas law requires that revelation to a transportation officer. At some point I would state they don't have my permission to search the vehicle or me and ask to speak to my attorney since I don't know what my legal rights are in this circumstance, but I would not resist.
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What exactly does a TSA police car and a TSA highway officer look like? If someone tries to pull me over that doesn't look like a normal highway patrol, sheriff or local police, I'm just going to keep rolling or commence rolling again until an appropriate identifiable law enforcement vehicle is involved. If the cellphone works, I'll be talking to 911 demanding real police while continuing to travel. I won't pull over for wannabe police security companies on public roads that are out of their jurisdiction or anything that doesn't look right...especially if I'm not doing anything wrong.
 
fgcason said:
What exactly does a TSA police car and a TSA highway officer look like? If someone tries to pull me over that doesn't look like a normal highway patrol, sheriff or local police, I'm just going to keep rolling or commence rolling again until an appropriate identifiable law enforcement vehicle is involved. If the cellphone works, I'll be talking to 911 demanding real police while continuing to travel. I won't pull over for wannabe police security companies on public roads that are out of their jurisdiction or anything that doesn't look right...especially if I'm not doing anything wrong.
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I get a laugh every time I mention that the most dangerous weapon I own is my cell phone with my lawyer on speed dial. Who also just happens to be a full professor of law, specializing in Constitutional Law & Intellectual Property (subset of CL)
 
murphey said:
I get a laugh every time I mention that the most dangerous weapon I own is my cell phone with my lawyer on speed dial. Who also just happens to be a full professor of law, specializing in Constitutional Law & Intellectual Property (subset of CL)
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That's all fine and hunky dory as long as the person giving you grief is afraid of the law. Most hooligans aren't or they wouldn't be hooligans in the first place.
The first line of defense in the real world is escape, and failing that, a steel bumper with a lot of mass attached to it.
 
In the military, they teach that you have an obligation to escape as quickly as is possible. The longer you are in captivity, the more professional your captors become, making it even harder to escape.

Whereas in civilian life, it is against the law to try and avoid capture (evading the law), and it's a major crime to attempt to escape, or to escape. So which is right?

John
 
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John Baker said:
In the military, they teach that you have an obligation to escape as quickly as is possible. The longer you are in captivity, the more professional your captors become, making it even harder to escape.

Whereas in civilian life, it is against the law to try and avoid capture (evading the law), and it's a major crime to attempt to escape, or to escape. So which is right?

John
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To use our legal rights, and means through our right to speak out, and vote to escape the tyranny that governments bring. If that does not work, and it does not seem to be working now, I really don't know what we can do.
 
http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/mom-with-breast-pump-humiliated-by-tsa/

Here is my complaint.

I am a law abiding citizen with a concealed carry permit. The chances of me ever being stopped or searched is very low.

However, to bring an intrusive government agency into our lives, who will not use sound judgement and sensible measures and use the excuse that its for our safety is ludicrous.

After observing TSA agents and their actions, it appears that our freedoms are being thrown out the window.

I have NO problem with someone who is suspect. However, to make everyone suspect is to ignore the criminal.

The above link is another example of giving someone too much authority with NO training.

It is extremely troubling when a federal agency starts trying to patrol highways without the cooperation and knowledge of the state.

Who approved this? Just because they are federal agents doesn't mean they have absolute control of someone driving down the road.

So if a TSA vehicle sees a drunk, is it a federal offense, no offense, call the highway patrol, or ignore the situation and continue to search for a terrorist?

All of this seems "petty" to the average law abiding citizen but in real life, each scenario has to be written down in black and white to prevent people from being accused or tried under false pretenses.

We are talking about human beings, U.S. citizens.

What is even more amazing is the appearance of the ho-hum reaction of the average citizen. Most are content to drink their beer and watch their sports. I was one of the ones that said "It will always happen to someone else."

Now, I see an intrusion into our private lives that is down right alarming.

Terry
 
As far as I am concerned, as soon as the Bush regime introduced their "Patriot Act" and started calling the U.S.A. "The Homeland" and the American public said little or nothing, the concept of this nation being a free country had come to an end.

When Obama ran on a platform of "change", I had hoped, should he win, he would undo all that nonsense, but he won, and took it to heart instead.

It is only a matter of time before the operators of forums such as this will become forced "patriots" and such blather as we are indulging in will not be allowed.

Following that, it will become a well enforced law.

John
 
fgcason said:
What exactly does a TSA police car and a TSA highway officer look like? If someone tries to pull me over that doesn't look like a normal highway patrol, sheriff or local police, I'm just going to keep rolling or commence rolling again until an appropriate identifiable law enforcement vehicle is involved. If the cellphone works, I'll be talking to 911 demanding real police while continuing to travel. I won't pull over for wannabe police security companies on public roads that are out of their jurisdiction or anything that doesn't look right...especially if I'm not doing anything wrong.
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They set up a road block or set up in a weigh station along with the local police.
 
Anthony said:
To use our legal rights, and means through our right to speak out, and vote to escape the tyranny that governments bring. If that does not work, and it does not seem to be working now, I really don't know what we can do.
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Well the Constitution does still give us the right to revolution. But I don't think our government would ever let that happen.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
We are at war.
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Not by defintion and not legally as described in the US Constitution

Travel is a privilege, not a right.
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Right to privacy is a right.

We are trying to catch terrorists. Torture is justified in this case. Besides, it's not really torture.
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Torture is never justified, especially when you're supposed to be the United States. You might be okay with America become a terrorist nation. I am not. America is (supposed to be) a beacon of justice and liberty.


If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about.
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That's all fine and dandy, until the government changes the definition of "wrong". I doubt you'll be having this attitude if you're thrown in jail for being a "terrorist" with no trial to prove your guilt
 
John Baker said:
As far as I am concerned, as soon as the Bush regime introduced their "Patriot Act" and started calling the U.S.A. "The Homeland" and the American public said little or nothing, the concept of this nation being a free country had come to an end.

When Obama ran on a platform of "change", I had hoped, should he win, he would undo all that nonsense, but he won, and took it to heart instead.

It is only a matter of time before the operators of forums such as this will become forced "patriots" and such blather as we are indulging in will not be allowed.

Following that, it will become a well enforced law.

John
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Excellent post.

It was when Obama extended the Patriot Act, and the bailouts, that I realized he is identical to Bush in every way.

I'm shocked how many people don't realize the word "terrorist" isn't defined anywhere in the Patriot Act, therefore it's up to the CiC to define it. And if Obama (or Romney, or whoever is the next pres) decided a terrorist is anyone who doesn't [insert government mandated activity], you're going to jail. And you have no right to legal counsil
 
gcd89 said:
Excellent post.

It was when Obama extended the Patriot Act, and the bailouts, that I realized he is identical to Bush in every way.

I'm shocked how many people don't realize the word "terrorist" isn't defined anywhere in the Patriot Act, therefore it's up to the CiC to define it. And if Obama (or Romney, or whoever is the next pres) decided a terrorist is anyone who doesn't [insert government mandated activity], you're going to jail. And you have no right to legal counsil
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I suspect the problem is that most people think the government can be trusted with those powers. People tend to forget the danger of giving the government too much power until it's too late.
 
Palmpilot said:
I suspect the problem is that most people think the government can be trusted with those powers. People tend to forget the danger of giving the government too much power until it's too late.
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It is TOO late..:yesnod::yesnod::mad2::mad2::(
 
Dave Siciliano said:
If the police can't search your vehicle without a warrant, why would a TSA officer be so able? If I'm legally armed, I have to disclose that to a peace officer when they ask to see my DL; don't see where Texas law requires that revelation to a transportation officer. At some point I would state they don't have my permission to search the vehicle or me and ask to speak to my attorney since I don't know what my legal rights are in this circumstance, but I would not resist.

Best,

Dave
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Police can search your vehicle legally without a warrant in a number of circumstances. But not randomly at a roadside checkpoint, except by their eyeballs from the outside absent some exigency.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Police can search your vehicle legally without a warrant in a number of circumstances. But not randomly at a roadside checkpoint, except by their eyeballs from the outside absent some exigency.
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And what are the consequences to the policeman who thinks he can and does so?
 
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