TSA Clearance

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chuck_yeager

Filing Flight Plan
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n00b
I am a permanent resident of the United States, a.k.a. Green Card holder, and am attempting to start flight training toward a Private Pilot License. As a non-US Citizen, I am required to obtain TSA Clearance to do so.

The catch: among the requirements is my foreign passport, which I do not have because I am what's know as a "stateless" person -- a citizen of no country. I therefore have no passport at all. I am neither an asylee nor a refugee.

I have contacted the TSA and so did my flight school: both got the same canned response of "A candidate must have a passport."

If anyone knows a pilot in my situation who have successfully obtained a TSA clearance, or knows how to proceed in my case, I would greatly appreciate any advice.
 
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Ouch...that's a tough one.

I would keep escalating at TSA through the 20-30 levels of supervisors until you can find someone who can make something happen! The front line call-centre people just have their little rule books, with zero discretion for situations that are not covered.

Just curious, it'd damned difficult to become stateless these days...how'd you manage it?
 
How does one become a stateless person? Did your country evaporate while you were away?
 
This came up before on the red board, a while back. I think the upshot was that the person could petition through the fed court for becoming a ward of the state, but the cost breakdown by the time it was all done was $40-50k.

My opinion for what it's worth is to fly ultralight or gliders.
 
steingar said:
How does one become a stateless person? Did your country evaporate while you were away?
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Don't know the OP's situation, but it usually happens when a recognized govt is overthrown while its citizens are abroad....their passport and travel documents become void because the government that issued them no longer exists.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
That's pretty terrible. You could try to get your congressman or senator involved. Let us know how it goes.
 
I was born in a country which denied citizenship to members of a certain ethnic group/nationality. As opposed to birthright countries, where citizenship is granted to anyone born on its territory, the country in question grants citizenship based on one's heritage, i.e. nationalities of the parents.

I immigrated to the USA when I was a minor and have lived here ever since. Had I moved to the country of my ethnic origin, I would have had citizenship of that country but, my family moved to USA instead.
 
Wouldn't you have citizenship through your parents to the country of your ethnic origin?
 
chuck_yeager said:
I was born in a country which denied citizenship to members of a certain ethnic group/nationality. As opposed to birthright countries, where citizenship is granted to anyone born on its territory, the country in question grants citizenship based on one's heritage, i.e. nationalities of the parents.

I immigrated to the USA when I was a minor and have lived here ever since. Had I moved to the country of my ethnic origin, I would have had citizenship of that country but, my family moved to USA instead.
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Is there some way to obtain citizenship in the country of your parents' nationality?
 
steingar said:
How does one become a stateless person? Did your country evaporate while you were away?
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Not making any assumptions about the OP, but over 200,000 Palestinians who do not have Israeli citizenship are stateless in the eyes of the US and Israeli governments. Only one example.

I also know (knew?) a person of Chinese descent from Canada who was officially stateless, he somehow fell through the cracks of a change in Canadian immigration laws some time back. He might now be a US Citizen, lost track of him over the years.
 
bluee said:
Wouldn't you have citizenship through your parents to the country of your ethnic origin?
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You'd think so, wouldn't you? :) Short story: it is neither automatic nor guaranteed. In light of this TSA debacle, I will be speaking (again) to the embassy. Given the processing time and the fact the we're dealing with international bureaucracy, I may be -- and I am not joking -- sooner eligible for US Citizenship (less than two years!).

Whatever the case might be, if I do not find a procedure via which I can obtain TSA clearance with my current papers, my training will be postponed for one to two years. :(
 
So are you going to tell us the countries involved?

International bureaucracy I can understand. My child is both American and German. Germans only give citizenship through blood, not by place of birth. The Germans issued her German passport when she was six months old, but her German birth certificate is apparently a complicated document and we still haven't received it eleven months later.

Anyway, good luck!
 
chuck_yeager said:
You'd think so, wouldn't you? :) Short story: it is neither automatic nor guaranteed. In light of this TSA debacle, I will be speaking (again) to the embassy. Given the processing time and the fact the we're dealing with international bureaucracy, I may be -- and I am not joking -- sooner eligible for US Citizenship (less than two years!).

Whatever the case might be, if I do not find a procedure via which I can obtain TSA clearance with my current papers, my training will be postponed for one to two years. :(
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Dumb question...

Did your parents become US Citizens before you turned 18?
 
I would think your embassy could help. If not, was there an organization involved in obtaining your status here (UN refugee organization, for example)? That would probably be my next step.
 
Noob glider training doesn't require a tsa background check. Doesn't make sense but that is govt for ya. Ssa.org has most glider operations listed. Something to consider if you want to get in the air sooner.
 
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What was your status before you became a permanent resident ?

If you were a refugee or asylee immediately prior to becoming a PR, you could obtain a refugee travel document from USCIS by filing form I131. I know, it doesn't say 'Passport' on it and the drones at the TSA may reject it, but it would seem to be as close as you can get to have documentation of your identity.

The ICRC used to issue travel documents for stateless refugees ('Nansen Passport'), but as I understand it this has been superceded by issuance through individual nations.

If the politics of your parents home country have changed in the meantime, getting a passport from there would probably be your best bet. I used to have a contact at the Nigerian consulate. For $100 you could get a perfectly legal ecowas passport for anyone ;) (Un)fortunately the naija consulates have cleaned up their act in the last couple of years.
 
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I think "Chuck Yeager" is pulling our leg.
Maybe needs to go home and learn to fly.
 
aviatingfool said:
I think "Chuck Yeager" is pulling our leg.
Maybe needs to go home and learn to fly.
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So you doubt that there are stateless individuals living in the US on a permanent resident card ?

The world is sometimes a bit complicated.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Not making any assumptions about the OP, but over 200,000 Palestinians who do not have Israeli citizenship are stateless in the eyes of the US and Israeli governments. Only one example.
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Every last one of them could get Israeli citizenship for the asking. They don't ask. Any American can renounce their US citizenship and become a stateless person, though I'd have little sympathy for them that did so.
 
Oh, btw: One avenue to pursue with federal agencies is allways to talk to constituent services of the congress critter in whose district you reside. While you are not a voter (yet), for the most part they still consider you a constituent. While you as an individual can't get past the callcenter drones that work for a contractor, the TSA has to answer the phone if a member of congress sends an inquiry (through is staff of course).
 
aviatingfool said:
I think "Chuck Yeager" is pulling our leg.
Maybe needs to go home and learn to fly.
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Never underestimate the ability of a bureaucracy to defy logic, common sense and common decency...
 
I don't suppose common sense and good judgement are going to work their way into this issue.
 
weilke said:
What was your status before you became a permanent resident ?

If you were a refugee or asylee immediately prior to becoming a PR, you could obtain a refugee travel document from USCIS by filing form I131. I know, it doesn't say 'Passport' on it and the drones at the TSA may reject it, but it would seem to be as close as you can get to have documentation of your identity.
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:yeahthat:

The AFSP will allow you to provide your A number and two pieces of identification in lieu of a passport if you entered the US as a refugee/asylum seeker. That appears to be the only exception to the requirement that you provide a current passport. That being said, not sure why the TSA would treat someone stateless any different, especially if you are a permanent resident - something worth bringing up if you ever get a TSA supervisor on the line.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Noob glider training doesn't require a tsa background check. Doesn't make sense but that is govt for ya. Ssa.org has most glider operations listed. Something to consider if you want to get in the air sooner.
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No background check to fly a glider? My God man, someone could use a glider to mount an attack on a nuclear power plant!!! :D
 
aviatingfool said:
Really. So many panties in a bunch - amazing. Some people are just easier to fool than others....:yesnod:
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No, it's about common decency. The whole point of PoA and our Rules of Conduct is to have folks be welcome and accepted here - it's not to make snarky comments and run folks off.

(moderator hat off)
If you or others want to trash folks that come on the forum, I'd be just as happy to see you go elsewhere.

(moderator hat back on).
 
Wasn't meant to be snarky which is, quite simply, in the eye of the beholder.

I've taken my share of "snarky comments" too. I just put them on my growing ignore list as they should me. Only see their insults, name calling and snarky comments when quoted. Doesn't seem to bother you though. :no:
Must be your buddies, as I never see you say boo to them despite obvious and blatant rule infractions. That's OK, many amateurs in power tend to develop a double standard. Also seems to align with political affiliation and is more prevalent these days - not fair, not reasonable, not decent but prevalent none the less - sad. :yes:
If you want to be discriminatory in your censorship out of deference to your pals - go right ahead. It just illustrates that double standard I mentioned....

We need to be a lot more careful with our border, citizenship protection and flight training, not less. It seems the results of the last big failure in this regard is slowly fading from memory except, perhaps, for the relatives and other loved ones of 2,753 people.

I think anyone that blasphemes by taking the name of Chuck Yeager is fully capable of pulling our leg. If that isn't a possibility to you - oh well. I'll let the real General Yeager know some guy is using his name here next time I see him at the café. He deserves better from your more "welcomed" posters.
 
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mattaxelrod said:
This is exactly the plot of the movie "The Terminal" with Tom Hanks.
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Which in turn was based on the real-life story of a guy who lived in the transit area of Charles de Gaulle airport for several years. I believe he is iranian but the iranian goverment didn't acknowledge that he is a citizen. As he did not have a case for political persecution and based on Schengen policies, the french wouldn't let him into the country. Don't remember how this eventually got resolved.
As much as we like to complain about 'the goverment' and what they do, the only thing worse than bad goverment is no goverment at all.
 
aviatingfool said:
Wasn't meant to be snarky which is, quite simply, in the eye of the beholder.

I've taken my share of "snarky comments" too. I just put them on my growing ignore list as they should me. Only see their insults, name calling and snarky comments when quoted. Doesn't seem to bother you though. :no:
Must be your buddies, as I never see you say boo to them despite obvious and blatant rule infractions. That's OK, many amateurs in power tend to develop a double standard. Also seems to align with political affiliation and is more prevalent these days - not fair, not reasonable, not decent but prevalent none the less - sad. :yes:
If you want to be discriminatory in your censorship out of deference to your pals - go right ahead. It just illustrates that double standard I mentioned....

We need to be a lot more careful with our border, citizenship protection and flight training, not less. It seems the results of the last big failure in this regard is slowly fading from memory except, perhaps, for the relatives and other loved ones of 2,753 people.

I think anyone that blasphemes by taking the name of Chuck Yeager is fully capable of pulling our leg. If that isn't a possibility to you - oh well. I'll let the real General Yeager know some guy is using his name here next time I see him at the café. He deserves better from your more "welcomed" posters.
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Can I get on that ignore list of yours? If Chuck Yeager thinks that a pilot hopeful trying to sort through the bureaucracy who's using his name as an internet handle on a pilots forum is "blasphemy" well... :dunno:

P.S. Tell the General I said hi.
 
bartmc said:
Can I get on that ignore list of yours? If Chuck Yeager thinks that a pilot hopeful trying to sort through the bureaucracy who's using his name as an internet handle on a pilots forum is "blasphemy" well... :dunno:

P.S. Tell the General I said hi.
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1. Absolutely - done.
2. The General won't be pleased with anyone using his name -sorry you wouldn't understand.
3. Doubt, I'll do that.
4. Your signature line says it all....:yesnod:
 
aviatingfool said:
1. Absolutely - done.
2. The General won't be pleased with anyone using his name -sorry you wouldn't understand.
3. Doubt, I'll do that.
4. Your signature line says it all....:yesnod:
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1. Thanks.
2. Good to know Chuck Yeager's press secretary is among the POA members, and harasses/stalks Dr. B for fun.
3. Don't sweat it.
4. It's sort of our "tounge in cheek" motto for disaster recovery at work, I found it appropriate to aviation with regard to "When things go wrong, how you react"

Have a nice day.
 
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