The problem is the folks in the TSA aren't always respectful. I have no trouble with most of them, but there are a handful who provide the reputation of the TSA.
TSA actually find a gun this time...
- Thread starter tawood
- Start date
I agree, but you will find that same problem with any group of people. I consider it more of a problem with the TSA because (being government employees) their rope is longer, their accountability is zero, and if you don't submit without protest you're much more likely to end up being charged as a criminal.
Still, if you're waiting in a security line you shouldn't be shocked to be questioned by security. That's part of the function of security. What makes TSA security theater is that they (supposedly) don't focus on high-risk individuals, and end up frisking 90+ year old seniors so that everyone knows that they're being "fair." That's simply insane.
JKG
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Gotta wonder if the amount of pat downs are directly proportional to how good lookin' the lady is....
Last edited:
Rushie
En-Route
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,017
- Display Name
Display name:
Rushie
I don't think she was an attention whore at all. Sounds like she completely inadvertently gave the Texas salute to her co student or whatever without consciously trying to make an inappropriate gun joke in the wrong place. It's everyone else that over reacted. And I don't blame her for griping about what they did on social media. The TSA was 100% out of line here and SHOULD be called out on it. The girl did nothing wrong and isn't being a spoiled millennial - her reaction is more than reasonable. I myself would have been far less nice about it than she is.
Rushie
En-Route
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,017
- Display Name
Display name:
Rushie
This is exactly my thought.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
I agree, I don't think she is an attention whore. She is just doing what people are being taught to do when something happens that they do not like the result of. Whine, whine, whine to anyone that will pay attention.
Her giving the school sign of waving finger guns in the air in an airport security line was totally inappropriate, inadvertently or not. Security is the job of the TSA, like it or not. She could have been taken to a holding facility and held for a complete back ground history, but common sense prevailed and decided she was not a risk. Stupid yes, risk no.
And someone refresh my memory, does the military use hand signals in combat.?
Would it be possible for a terrorist act to be started with hand signals.?
If a complete stranger walked up to your car in a parking lot and point their "finger gun" at you would you not be concerned.?
Remember, the guy she gave the school salute to looked at her like she was weird and moved on.
Shopshirt
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2015
- Messages
- 260
- Display Name
Display name:
Shopshirt
Nice try...but no it is still a ridiculous overreaction.
SkyDog58
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2015
- Messages
- 14,600
- Location
- My own special place.
- Display Name
Display name:
Canis Non Grata
That’s exactly why grandma gets singled out. Just to prove they are not profiling. Meanwhile they are quite possibly missing actual threats.
No, I don't and never did consider a "finger gun" any type of threat. In fact, as a kid I used to run around making "finger guns" all the time. So did everyone else. Suggesting that "finger guns" are some type of threat is the same insanity that causes elementary school kids to get suspended for making gun shapes out of Pop Tarts. It's adult idiocy at its best.
In this case if the TSA was concerned, then they were justified in asking questions. I don't remember reading anything in the article that suggested that they did anything out of the ordinary except question her. I don't think that she did anything wrong, and it would appear that in this case neither did the TSA.
With that being said, everything reported by the media is usually only part of the story.
JKG
Last edited:
bflynn
Final Approach
I know what you mean. I was just reading that memo last week about the terrorists who are amputating their fingers, replacing them with barrels and linking the firing pin to their thumbs. We can't have people putting up a finger and thumb anywhere because it looks like a gun.
I mean it's a good thing she wasn't eating breakfast at the same time, two guns might have gotten her thrown in Gitmo for a few decades...
Need to seriously reexamine that...
denverpilot
Tied Down
I don’t think it’s as much “forgetting” as just “not a big deal” to anyone who does it. It’s about as interesting as wearing your watch, until you need it. Having worked with cops who carry 24/7 and former security detail folks who I’ve trained with, you just don’t think about it. It’s worn just like a belt is worn. I don’t think about my belt unless my pants are falling down.
I suspect many of the ones caught at TSA are off-body carry, as in, in a purse. And I’m against that for a number of reasons, but I also understand why some people do it.
Additionally the whole “loaded” vs “unloaded” thing is just blather. Only a few rare types of firearm should be transported unloaded for any sort of safety reason, and they’re ancient designs that nobody would be carrying.
*As an aside, pointing a loaded firearm at anything not intended to be destroyed is against my personal rules and that’s one of the reasons I’m not a fan of off-body carry or even certain types of on-body carry, because of where the muzzle gets inadvertently pointed. But then again, the security detail friend and I point out shoulder holsters to each other on TV clips and the rare occasion we’re around anyone famous and their bodyguards are literally muzzling the entire crowd, nearly constantly. Anytime some famous person’s guards have their backs to you, you’re likely staring at the muzzle of a loaded pistol if they’re wearing a suit. Just fact. Look closer. You’ll see the telltale of the straps under the suit jacket at the shoulder.
The two who were fired here were both gay and opposite genders. They’d tell each other when a hottie of the opposite gender needed some extra attention. Not kidding. And I don’t even want to get into the rights of a gay or transgender TSA employee. I’m just saying that the reality is, that’s what was going on out at DEN. They seem to have thoroughly enjoyed themselves for a long time. I have heard of no assault charges being filed because I’m sure TSA has some politician exempt their staff from those long ago, like most government agencies exempt themselves from the law’s normal Citizens must follow.
What else works but changing public opinion against a political entity as big as TSA? File a typed report in triplicate and we’ll get back to you in a couple of years? She has reason to whine, the whole thing is retarded. Even idiots here think a terrorist group would use gun shaped hand signals to start something... at the checkpoint? WTF good is starting something at the checkpoint? Or using an obvious hand signal like that? People who want to harm others really aren’t quite THAT stupid. Certainly not the ones the entire Agency was created to ostensibly stop.
Beyond that, the threat of an airliner being used again in such a way, was already dead by the time Flight 93 hit the ground. Everyone on board will literally claw the eyeballs out of someone attempting such stupidity now, and they’ll even sacrifice themselves to do it, because they know the terrorists are willing to. Any strategic battle course will always point out that if a force has people willing to die to win by overwhelming an enemy so the survivors can accomplish something, they’ll usually win over a force that won’t put anyone at risk of dying. Battle basics.
It’s not just “possibly”. Their audits they hate to allow be known in public show they’re just flag missing stuff and always have.
Want to know the real winners of the creation of TSA? Look no further than the equipment vendors.
Should have been a proper government regulatory agency. Recommendations and standards for gear, tell the airlines they must buy certain things that meet a certain standard, and training standards for those hired, and again, told the airlines to go hire them. DHS shouldn’t be RUNNING the rent a cops. They should be REGULATING the security of an industry that failed to do it. At the industry’s expense.
For that matter, most airports are municipal. He cities that want the benefits of a major airport, should have simply been told to hire security officers into their PD or whatever agency they wanted.
The next big terror attacks come from drones. Already happened last week in Russia. Airliners have been safe ever since the passengers of Flight 93 rushed the terrorists and the airlines bought some heavier cockpit doors and video cameras for them.
TSA is a multi-billion dollar boondoggle that helps the government with their employment statistics. Gives low to mid level retired military officers a career path, driving to airports and measuring them for fences in their G-cars from Governmenr Bailout Motors.
Amazing how a few thousand dollar chain link fence can suddenly be a million bucks, too. Pure graft.
The truth is it's nearly impossible to have a free society and reliably prevent a person who doesn't care about their own survival from carrying out acts of terror. However there's always that portion of the population who thinks that it IS possible and the nebulous they can have that kind of control. It's a complete and total illusion but I guess some people need it. I have a very hard time feeling sympathy for those types, especially when I have to put up with something that at best is a costly hassle and at worst is a violation of one's basic rights and dignity.
Am I the only one who just feels a sense of shame in my country every time I have to go through a TSA line? It's not even outrage anymore, it just makes me sad that this is how we responded to terrorism.
Fortunately I don't really *need* to travel anywhere or follow a set travel schedule, so I fly my own plane. Can't keep to a schedule but at least it's a happy experience rather than a miserable one.
Am I the only one who just feels a sense of shame in my country every time I have to go through a TSA line? It's not even outrage anymore, it just makes me sad that this is how we responded to terrorism.
Fortunately I don't really *need* to travel anywhere or follow a set travel schedule, so I fly my own plane. Can't keep to a schedule but at least it's a happy experience rather than a miserable one.
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 7,507
- Location
- North Carolina once again.
- Display Name
Display name:
Tarheelpilot
You hit the nail square on. I couldn’t have said it better. Having to troll through TSA’s ******** is part of why I left the airline industry. It’s pathetic we have allowed this to happen in America.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I won’t even say “we”. I certainly had no say in it.
Now that we know we created a place for molesters and thieves to ply their interests, it should be disbanded as the social engineering failure it is.
Failure not for trying, but because it tackles non-threats with insane amounts of money.
Want proof? Wait for the next attack and notice it’s done in a new and different way.
Really all TSA does is keep the passengers from killing each other at the drop of a hat. There’s maybe some value in that. The dumbest of the passengers think they’re safe after passing through the Blue Man Glove Crew.
So they tend not to bludgeon the passenger next to them to death for pointing at the sky with their “pistol finger”. Because yes, they’re that skittish and stupid. Mooo.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,884
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
If good ole’ grandma wasn’t singled out every now and then, I’d bet dollars to donuts the bad guys would find a way to use grandma.
As far as not wanting to use aviation as a tool after 9/11..?? My goodness, the shoe bomber and underwear bomber.
I don’t like the TSA either, but we cannot institute Israel type security here and it beats the alternative.
As far as not wanting to use aviation as a tool after 9/11..?? My goodness, the shoe bomber and underwear bomber.
I don’t like the TSA either, but we cannot institute Israel type security here and it beats the alternative.
Larry in TN
En-Route
Do you really believe that?
I don't know. How do you predetermine which is which so you know who to allow to carry their guns aboard?
NoHeat
Final Approach
If anyone deserves criticism, it is Fox News, not the innocent woman. It is perfectly normal for people have un-newsworthy experiences and then talk about it on social media. It happens a million times every day.
A national news outlet should not try to make a big story out of nothing, lest it call out attention to its tabloid tendencies.
Paulie
Line Up and Wait
I find TSA is nicest at Reagan National, they don't know if you're someone that can affect their funding.
Leaving STX I was searched by a agent that I was sitting next to the night before at dinner who is a friend. I was flying commercial to get my plane that I left at SJU because of weather. The only thing I was carrying was my headset and they couldn't understand why I had no luggage. This made them very suspicious. After telling them I was going to get in my plane and come back immediately five times, I gave up.
Leaving STX I was searched by a agent that I was sitting next to the night before at dinner who is a friend. I was flying commercial to get my plane that I left at SJU because of weather. The only thing I was carrying was my headset and they couldn't understand why I had no luggage. This made them very suspicious. After telling them I was going to get in my plane and come back immediately five times, I gave up.
Yes, I do. I also believe the data you posted to be true.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
The TSA doesn't stop the threat, they just move it.
With increased passenger awareness, Air Marshals & hardened cockpits, there won't be another 9/11 style event with planes flying into buildings. Terrorists might blow up a plane, sure, but not take control of it.
But nothing is keeping a terrorist wrapped with explosives from walking into a airport's security line area and detonating himself and killing just as many or more than had he brought an airliner down.
Not as dramatic, but just as effective. And the above comparison scenario assumes airport security is effective in the first place, which the TSA has proven themselves definitely isn't. 5% effective ain't effective!
The terrorists won with the passage of the patriot act and they've continued their winning streak since.
With increased passenger awareness, Air Marshals & hardened cockpits, there won't be another 9/11 style event with planes flying into buildings. Terrorists might blow up a plane, sure, but not take control of it.
But nothing is keeping a terrorist wrapped with explosives from walking into a airport's security line area and detonating himself and killing just as many or more than had he brought an airliner down.
Not as dramatic, but just as effective. And the above comparison scenario assumes airport security is effective in the first place, which the TSA has proven themselves definitely isn't. 5% effective ain't effective!
The terrorists won with the passage of the patriot act and they've continued their winning streak since.
Last edited:
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 16,022
- Location
- DXO124009
- Display Name
Display name:
Light and Sporty Guy
Yes, but as everybody knows, the "trigger" signal for an attack isn't pointing with their finger, it's picking their nose.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 16,022
- Location
- DXO124009
- Display Name
Display name:
Light and Sporty Guy
You can't. That's why the flight attendants should be handing out guns to every third person (two in first class) so that there is at least one gun per set of seats.
SkyDog58
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2015
- Messages
- 14,600
- Location
- My own special place.
- Display Name
Display name:
Canis Non Grata
It's getting worse. After this young lady flashed her sign below, a ballistic missile warning was issued in Hawaii.
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
denverpilot
Tied Down
Pretty poor examples, since one of those made it PAST TSA and ON TO THE PLANE for efffs sake.
Both were the “old fashioned” bomber threats the airlines in the US traditionally did nothing about anyway. Not organized threats that would harm the public. Mental health problems. Calling them “terrorists” is a stretch in the old pre-9/11 world.
I’m not saying that Unabomber types don’t need to be dealt with, but we do have standard law enforcement agencies for that and they were on the trail of most of these idiots.
Adding a few billion dollars wasted and the Blue Glove Crew obviously didn’t help in those two cases. Got better examples?
I’m not the biggest fan of growing anything in our wasteful government, since it’d be better if they couldn’t make themselves trillion dollar loans overall, but if given the choice of creating and funding TSA and just spending more on FBI, I know which one would give all of us more bang for the buck.
Let the airlines pay for their fake rent-a-cops. Society should buy real cops if we’re forced to spend money we don’t have on such things.
And they’re not even good at that, since they’ve moved the threat more than once INTO the aircraft they’re supposedly “protecting”. LOL. Wouldn’t want to loiter around in the terminal, you know. TSA might spot you and call a real cop.
Larry in TN
En-Route
I'm not sure if that's hyperbole, sarcasm, or a serious suggestion.
Assuming a serious suggestion, that would introduce the risk of accidental discharge, or inappropriate intentional discharge, which would endanger other passengers and possibly the airplane. That risk would have to be balanced against the risk of an otherwise successful takeover attempt and it would do nothing to address what is probably the greater threat of a bombing. I don't see how the benefit would outweigh the risks. There are armed air marshals, pilots, and other law enforcement officers on commercial flights who would intervene in such a takeover attempt.
The TSA was created on 11/19/01, a little over a month after the 9/11 attacks. The Shoe Bomber attempted to bring down AA63, a little over a month later (12/22/01), but the flight was departing Paris, France so security screening for the flight was conducted by the French authorities, not the newly-formed TSA. The passengers would have been processed by the TSA after arrival in the US before boarding connecting flights. The French authorities did identify Reid, who was a self-proclaimed Al-Qaeda operative, as a security selectee and the additional screening he received in Paris caused him to miss his originally targeted flight on 12/21/01. After a significant period of questioning, French authorities were not able to find reason to continue to detain Reid and did not find the explosives hidden in his shoes as testing shoes for concealed explosives was not done by any countries at that time. The one-day delay, however, may have prevented the attack from succeeding as it was raining in Paris and the moisture made the device more difficult to ignite giving the passengers and crew time to stop him.
The Underwear bomber attempted to bring down NWA253 on 12/25/09. This flight departed Amsterdam so, again, the TSA did not perform the passenger screening. Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula claimed to have organised the attack, providing the bomb and training. Similarly to the Shoe Bomber attack, this attack relied on the inability of the walk-through metal detectors to detect non-metallic explosives concealed in, or under, a passengers clothing.
The threat of such concealed explosives led to the development and deployment of Advanced Imaging Technology (AIT) scanners which can detect non-metallic items concealed under, or in, clothing. Detecting explosives concealed in shoes has been more difficult. Several technologies have been tested, at least one reached field testing at airport checkpoints, but nothing has yet proven reliable and effective enough to replace the x-raying of shoes. Initially after Reid's attempt, all passenger shoes were x-rayed. Profiling techniques have since allowed the reduction in the number of passengers who's shoes must be removed to be x-rayed.
The x-ray scanners for hand-baggage have been significantly improved since 9/11. They now highlight organic vs. inorganic materials giving the operators more information to use to evaluate the contents. They are working to replacing these x-ray based scanners with 3D imaging scanners, similar to the large CTX scanners that have been used to screen checked baggage for explosives that, until now, were too large to be used at the passenger screening checkpoints. This technology could finally lead to the elimination of the carry-on liquid restrictions.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Otherwise known as a multimillion dollar boondoggle that should have been speced, tested, and paid for by the airlines.
But heck, that wouldn’t keep the political donors paid. Plus, it’s always nicer to have a nearly unlimited budget based off of trillions in government debt and graft. Awww darn, it failed, no liability... ooopsies... can we have another billion, mommie?
Keeps the CEO’s boat in the Bahamas in fuel for the big parties to keep his company in the running for the next college try... and the CTO is a little stressed, but the new Ferrari makes it feel better.
All this technology, and they still manage to miss 95% of the weapons. Over 69,300 guns in 2016.
It still doesn't address the root cause of this discussion- there are some TSA agents who are fools and who help to make air travel more stressful than it needs to be. There are enough of them that almost no one likes the TSA. Their actions can only be dealt with by their "customers" only with a significant loss of time and effort.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Umm, yes. Covered-up and liability-free sexual molestation by the government tends to be stressful.
I think I’d use a stronger word, but sure... stressful. Why not? LOL.
Keeps the sheep from acting up on the airplanes, I guess.
Well, until they get drunk. Then they climb up on the drink cart and take a poop. Or pop an evac door.
Maybe I’ll get to sit next to the jackass who doesn’t fit in his seat and uses half of mine while hitting on the flight attendant for three hours, on my upcoming Southwest flight. Again.
If they’d just let me bring a taser I could have taken care of the problem for them. Oh well.
This is because despite potentially having the technology to stop this, the security mentality remains as it was before 9/11, which is largely open to anybody willing to die for the cause. In fact, they don't even have to do that well.
A major reliance is also put on identifying people who might want to blow a plane up before they get through security (do not fly lists, etc...). Of course, that has been shown to make things only slightly more difficult for the terrorists. It didn't stop the shoe or underwear bomber (and that cross-reference WAS in the hands of the TSA).
LOL, I'd rather keep the language clean, so "stressful" works.
As for the other stuff, you know I'm no fan of the TSA but it really isn't their job to keep people polite on the plane. A recent trip to Australia, I had to deal with some woman who thought she deserved more space for getting the middle seat. Hardly the TSA's fault, though I would agree that those seats are awful, especially on such a long flight. That's more of the airline's doing, those seats.
Larry in TN
En-Route
I'm not aware of any data to support your conclusion. The only data I've seen is on the tests.
The tests are designed to test the limits of the technology and procedures and don't represent that state of the average weapons found at checkpoints. And, "weapons" does not mean "guns". Guns are one of the most difficult of the weapons to conceal. Small, sharp weapons are more easily concealed and represent the majority of the weapons that are not found on the tests.
Larry in TN
En-Route
The government sees airline security as a part of national security. If you disagree, contact your representatives. They are the only ones who can change that.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,453
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
The most thorough screening I ever had was in Amsterdam. I have gotten "randomed" before in the US, but it seemed as if they were only going through the motions.
Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't make it false. You are confusing two types of tests here. One, as you state, tests the limits of technology, which means the scanners themselves. The other one, where they miss 95% of the guns, tests the system as a whole- they go to random checkpoints and see if they can get a gun through. They manage to do so 95% of the time.
I doubt anyone here is concerned about "small sharp weapons".
I note you ignore the "people problem" at the TSA. The rudeness, the "I am the law" attitude, the lack of sense, the "I'm just here to get paid" attitude. No amount of technology will help that. Any technology is only as good as the operators.
I was once a passive player in a security test. I think it was San Diego. As I placed my briefcase on the belt at the checkpoint, a guard placed a small package on top of it and gave me the "keep quiet" gesture. I hustled through the WTMD in time to see the screen on the X-Ray machine. There was quite clearly a hand grenade in the picture. To his credit, the operator did notice that.
NoHeat
Final Approach
Yes. I have departed from a dozen different overseas airports since 9/11, and the screening in Amsterdam last winter was more thorough than any other, and certainly better than in the US. I think it is a reflection of the quality of the work force.
Larry in TN
En-Route
I've only been through AMS once but my experience was similar to yours. Even so, they missed the underwear bomber because, at the time, they didn't have technology that could detect it.
Your interpretation of the test results is wrong. Your description of the tests, and how they are conducted, is wrong.
That is how they did the tests pre-9/11--pre-TSA. Often it was an airline employee, crewmember, or non-rev who took the test device through. Sometimes they would pick out a passenger, often a frequent flyer known to the airline personnel, and have them do it. The tests were ridiculously easy, just as you describe. I never heard of one failing. That is not how it is done today.
Yeah, like you know how they do these tests, and how to interpret the results. You won't get any information the TSA doesn't want the general public to know, aside from anything that could affect the flight. There are other airline pilots in this board and none of them are collaborating your statements.
There are enough people in the TSA with a poor attitude to make them despised as a group, and enough to make the fancy technology fail.
Larry in TN
En-Route
Well, I guess you told me...